[scorpiosis37]

When I watched the Lifetime Movie "Call Me Crazy" (thanks to the forum's recommendation), I immediately related to the teenage girl who had to manage her mother's mental health, hide what was really going on from her friends, and become the "adult" in the situation when she should have been the child. While my biological mother had the same diagnosis as the mom in the film (bioplar 1), many of the other particulars were somewhat different. On the negative side, my mom was far less functional & never had any periods of "being a mom;" on the positive side, my dad was in the picture (though usually at work or away on business). It still makes me angry when I think of the ways in which I had to be an adult at the age of 11, protect my mom from herself and my little sister, and lose friends throughout jr. & sr. high school because I couldn't explain to them why they couldn't come over or why I couldn't go over to their house. I also remember the time I called the police to try and get some help when my little sister and I were left alone with my mom and she was chasing us with a knife, and instead of getting my mom some help, the police believed her over me (while she was manic) because "she was the adult" and tried to arrest me instead for being a "trouble making teenager." I knew from a very early age that my mom was mentally ill, but my dad refused to tell me what her diagnosis was and would usually deny that she was mentally ill at all. It was only recently (now that I'm 28) that my dad has disclosed her mental health history to me. I've always felt that my dad should have been much more open about this when I was growing up. If he put me in the position of having to be her caretaker when he was at work (from ages 11-18), I should have had the information to understand what was going on. But, at the same time, I don't think I should have had to be put in that position at all or exposed to her manic episodes and spent much of my life afraid and having to constantly put out fires & then lie to outsiders about what was going on. Ideally, I don't think children should have to be burdened with their parents' mental health. While I think Dr. Phil is a bit of a quack, I do agree with his saying that "kids should't have to deal with adult issues"-- that when parents are mentally ill, going through a divorce, battling substance abuse, etc-- that children should be protected from knowing about/hearing about/handling these issues. As I can state from my own experience, it changes who the child is and takes something away from them; it takes away their childhood and their sense of safety in their own home. It was always hard for me to relate to my friends as they were worrying about dating, shopping, gossip, etc-- I had much bigger problems at home to worry about. That makes me wonder though-- is that realistic? Is it realistic to say that children should not be involved in their parents' mental health? Or is it a necessity for the children to know about and be involved in what is going on? In some ways, it seems unfair to make the children involved in something they have no say in, since they can't decide whether their parent takes their meds, sees a T, works on their mental health, abuses substances, and so forth. But, at the same time, the child is probably going to witness manic and depressive episodes, anxiety and panic attacks, and so forth, so shouldn't the child be informed about what they are seeing? I think it's a really hard issue. I've only experienced this from the child's point of view, so I'm rather curious about what it's like from the parent's point of view. Do others have any insight on this?

[southpole]

I'm interested to hear from others about this too, having also only experienced it from the child's perspective...

I wasn't his carer per se but my father's mental illness affected all of us to a huge degree. I was the "responsible" one and bore the brunt of the family's problems. My mom had her own significant issues with illness and disability and I was more her carer that my father's, and my lil brother had (has) ADHD and depression. Little ol me with undiagnosed bipolar (I hid it because I had to hold everyone together and was just deemed "oversensitive" or just a bit "nuts") had to juggle the weird family dynamics since I was little, stop the fights and the tantrums, clean up the broken crockery etc. And I also had to explain to my friends why I couldn't come over to play because my massively depressed, paranoid, BPD dad wouldn't let me leave the house.

So yeah, I identify - and I really wish he had have faced up to his own problems. I eventually convinced him to go on meds by being sui and having to go on them myself - it was only seeing that he almost could have lost me that made him realize he had to do something for himself.

It's tough, I think a lot of kids do end up having to manage their parents' mental illness and I guess if the parent lacks the sort of insight (whether it's part of the illness of whatever) then the child can really get swallowed up by he parent's problems. Oh and of course there is always the joy that comes from realizing that you have inherited the parent's mental issues, yay for that It's the stuff T is made of!

[tinyrabbit]

I think kids whose parents have mental health problems are often completely overlooked, and I speak partly from personal experience. I don't understand why nobody thought to check out how everyone else in the family was being affected. I didn't have a childhood because of my dad's issues and how they affected everyone, and that's a very high price to pay.

I have always wished that someone had sat down with me properly to talk about things, explain things to me, find out how I was feeling, etc, but I had nobody. People say my mum must have done her best but her best sucked. I can think of a lot of ways in which I would do better, so I feel very hurt and angry.

[Freewilled]

I also have a fantasy that somebody would have intervened and talked to me as though I had rights and was a person. My mom's therapist supposedly recommended family therapy or individual therapy for us kids back then, but it never happened. I'm not sure why. Maybe it was the $$$....although, if my therapist recommended therapy for my child, it would happen no matter what!

I know after I left for college, my mom took my sister for a few sessions at one point but it was crisis-oriented....and one of my brothers also went years later, but that was also because it got so bad they couldn't ignore it. A try at prevention would've been nice I was the older, responsible, nothing-is-ever-wrong-with-her child, so my crisis never erupted in their eyes and no help for me.

[southpole]

Originally Posted by tinyrabbit

I think kids whose parents have mental health problems are often completely overlooked, and I speak partly from personal experience. I don't understand why nobody thought to check out how everyone else in the family was being affected. I didn't have a childhood because of my dad's issues and how they affected everyone, and that's a very high price to pay.

I have always wished that someone had sat down with me properly to talk about things, explain things to me, find out how I was feeling, etc, but I had nobody. People say my mum must have done her best but her best sucked. I can think of a lot of ways in which I would do better, so I feel very hurt and angry.

(((((((tinyrabbit)))))))

Yup. I hear you.

[tinyrabbit]

Originally Posted by Freewilled

I also have a fantasy that somebody would have intervened and talked to me as though I had rights and was a person. My mom's therapist supposedly recommended family therapy or individual therapy for us kids back then, but it never happened. I'm not sure why. Maybe it was the $$$....although, if my therapist recommended therapy for my child, it would happen no matter what!

I refused to go to family therapy. I knew nobody would listen to me as I would be outnumbered and then I'd have to go home with them after so I couldn't have said anything I wanted. In any case I don't think I could actually have voiced what was wrong.

[Freewilled]

Originally Posted by tinyrabbit

I refused to go to family therapy. I knew nobody would listen to me as I would be outnumbered and then I'd have to go home with them after so I couldn't have said anything I wanted. In any case I don't think I could actually have voiced what was wrong.

That's a good point...if family therapy had ever been an option, I probably wouldn't have been able to say much. It is a fantasy I guess /: meaning, pretending that my parents would've been at a place to actually hear what I had to say. It would've been good for me to have had individual therapy, though.

[tinyrabbit]

Originally Posted by Freewilled

That's a good point...if family therapy had ever been an option, I probably wouldn't have been able to say much. It is a fantasy I guess /: meaning, pretending that my parents would've been at a place to actually hear what I had to say. It would've been good for me to have had individual therapy, though.

I didn't mean to sound so dismissive - I have similar fantasies.

[Freewilled]

Originally Posted by tinyrabbit

I didn't mean to sound so dismissive - I have similar fantasies.

I didn't take it as dismissive at all, tinyrabbit just wish we didn't have to have fantasies like that. It's sad...

[tinyrabbit]

Originally Posted by Freewilled

I didn't take it as dismissive at all, tinyrabbit just wish we didn't have to have fantasies like that. It's sad...

It IS sad. And it's very important to acknowledge that - the fact that it's sad, and that we have a right to feel that way.

[pbutton]

I struggle with this. I realize both my parents had issues, but I somehow still think that I was capable of surviving, so it doesn't really matter. I probably need to find a way to grieve for what I missed.

I do admit I get a bit twitchy when I see parents posting things that remind me of my parents. I growl a little bit.

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by tinyrabbit

I refused to go to family therapy. I knew nobody would listen to me as I would be outnumbered and then I'd have to go home with them after so I couldn't have said anything I wanted. In any case I don't think I could actually have voiced what was wrong.

I decided I wanted to go to therapy as a teenager and, after a few sessions, she suggested I bring in the whole family. So, after much negotiation and being yelled at, my dad agreed and drove all of us to a session. My therapist had me sit there and say everything that I felt. Then it was my sad's turn-- he lied through the roof! Oscar worthy performance! He said he felt do sad that he had a daughter who was a pathological liar and that he was so glad I was getting help for MY problem and he wanted to help get me treatment so I would no longer disrupt the family! He also over-medicated my mother before the session so she was a zombie (not manic like usual) and he would say "don't you agree?" And she'd just nod. My therapist believed my dad over me and, next session, she said we change the focus of therapy to my lying problem! Obviously, I quit and I was not allowed to find a new T. It was awful! I pretty much lost faith that day that I would ever be able to get anyone to see the truth of the situation, have anyone b on my side, or support me. It was the loneliest I've bet felt.

[tinyrabbit]

Originally Posted by scorpiosis37

I decided I wanted to go to therapy as a teenager and, after a few sessions, she suggested I bring in the whole family. So, after much negotiation and being yelled at, my dad agreed and drove all of us to a session. My therapist had me sit there and say everything that I felt. Then it was my sad's turn-- he lied through the roof! Oscar worthy performance! He said he felt do sad that he had a daughter who was a pathological liar and that he was so glad I was getting help for MY problem and he wanted to help get me treatment so I would no longer disrupt the family! He also over-medicated my mother before the session so she was a zombie (not manic like usual) and he would say "don't you agree?" And she'd just nod. My therapist believed my dad over me and, next session, she said we change the focus of therapy to my lying problem! Obviously, I quit and I was not allowed to find a new T. It was awful! I pretty much lost faith that day that I would ever be able to get anyone to see the truth of the situation, have anyone b on my side, or support me. It was the loneliest I've bet felt.

That's awful. I'm so sorry you had to go through that.

I'm on your side, if that means anything.

[Perna]

I think the problem is one cannot know/separate the person from their illness.

I doubt your father knew your mother was going to or actually was chasing you around the house with a knife? We cannot predict anyone's behavior, especially someone with a mental illness? If your father was not there often, he probably did not know much of her behavior, how "bad" it could get or how it got in relation to his children, you and your sister.

Too, what would you have liked instead? We cannot cart your mother to the "mad house"/hospital, no one can afford that and doing so would have impacted you negatively too, because as a child you would not have understood. It is hard being a child, even an older teen, because our experience of the larger world is so limited. We generally only know our own family well and we have adapted to that family and its situations by default/because we have had to as that is all we've had.

I was thinking about the five year old boy who shot and killed his two year old sister and how, no matter what, both he and his parents are hosed for the rest of their lives? He can't be "taken away" and raised "better" because he'll always know what "he" did and can't possibly learn to believe, like we adults might, that it was not his "fault". He killed someone, his baby sister. Then we have the parents; the father wasn't even there but you know he feels responsible for not making sure the gun was unloaded, was put away? And his mother, it was a trailer, how much smaller/safer can a home be so the children can play and you can hear/know what is going on while doing some other chore that needs doing?

What else could your father have done? Your life went the way it did probably because it pretty much "had" to go that way. If he had burdened you with her illness, what could he have told you? If he had, somehow, put her away, what could he have told you? My mother died when I was 3, my life was forever changed and I spent 30 years in therapy, etc. Our lives can't come out "better" than they do, they come out as they come out. We could not have done something "better" or we would have? If your mother is not chasing you around the house with a knife when the police come, is calm and rational, how can they believe you? It's a he says/she says and the adult almost always has to win that. Nowadays, if a child is abused, they take the child away anyhow, that's the "joke" on kids that are angry at their parents and call to report they're being abused to get their parents in trouble. If the adults are taken away, the children have to be also because there's no one left to care for them?

[Freewilled]

I just wish my dad didnt tell me that I had to keep things together at home or my mom was going to leave us. I wish he had intervened when she went off and told me I didn't love her, didnt care about her, was a selfish brat etc etc. ad nauseum.

Yeah - alternatives were not pretty for me and I doubt they were for Scorpio either. Nonetheless, children deserve to be treated as children and not parentified or literally running for their lives from their caregivers! I wish I would have been treated as a person and intervention would have come in any form that allowed me to not take responsibility for grown-ups that I had no business trying to be responsible for in the first place.

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by Perna

I think the problem is one cannot know/separate the person from their illness.

I doubt your father knew your mother was going to or actually was chasing you around the house with a knife? We cannot predict anyone's behavior, especially someone with a mental illness? If your father was not there often, he probably did not know much of her behavior, how "bad" it could get or how it got in relation to his children, you and your sister.

Too, what would you have liked instead? We cannot cart your mother to the "mad house"/hospital, no one can afford that and doing so would have impacted you negatively too, because as a child you would not have understood. It is hard being a child, even an older teen, because our experience of the larger world is so limited. We generally only know our own family well and we have adapted to that family and its situations by default/because we have had to as that is all we've had.

I was thinking about the five year old boy who shot and killed his two year old sister and how, no matter what, both he and his parents are hosed for the rest of their lives? He can't be "taken away" and raised "better" because he'll always know what "he" did and can't possibly learn to believe, like we adults might, that it was not his "fault". He killed someone, his baby sister. Then we have the parents; the father wasn't even there but you know he feels responsible for not making sure the gun was unloaded, was put away? And his mother, it was a trailer, how much smaller/safer can a home be so the children can play and you can hear/know what is going on while doing some other chore that needs doing?

What else could your father have done? Your life went the way it did probably because it pretty much "had" to go that way. If he had burdened you with her illness, what could he have told you? If he had, somehow, put her away, what could he have told you? My mother died when I was 3, my life was forever changed and I spent 30 years in therapy, etc. Our lives can't come out "better" than they do, they come out as they come out. We could not have done something "better" or we would have? If your mother is not chasing you around the house with a knife when the police come, is calm and rational, how can they believe you? It's a he says/she says and the adult almost always has to win that. Nowadays, if a child is abused, they take the child away anyhow, that's the "joke" on kids that are angry at their parents and call to report they're being abused to get their parents in trouble. If the adults are taken away, the children have to be also because there's no one left to care for them?

My father actually DID know that my mom frequently chased me and my little sister around with knives. When he was home, he was the one wrestling the knife out of her hand! That was pretty much a "typical" day in my house. Her trying to drown me in the pool was another "typical" day. Having her hit me every time I tried to get her to take her medicine was also "typical." That got slightly better the older I got, because when I was bigger it didn't hurt as much when she hit me. My "job" during these daily episodes was to lock my little sister in a bedroom or bathroom and to put myself between my sister and my mom so that my sister didn't get hurt. My other job was take any car keys around the house away from my mom and not let her get on the road. When I was 12, the police took her license away for reasons connected to her mental illness-- so that helped-- but there were times she got a hold of my dad's car keys or mine (when I got a license at 16), so I still had to routinely check on those keys. My dad was absolutely aware of this; he's the one who told me to keep the keys away from her! He also was well aware when she set fire to the kitchen, and when she flooded the house-- twice. He had to come home and deal with the police & then pay for the damages. My dad is also the one who found my mom each time she tried to commit suicide. If she wasn't running around manic, I didn't go looking for her; so when my dad would get home, he'd find her passed out.

I absolutely think my dad should have put my mom in a hospital/institution where she would have been safe. I genuinely mean that for HER benefit; not only so my sister and I would have been safe at home. My mom has never (in my lifetime) had the mental capacity to care for herself. She cannot go to the bathroom by herself (another fun job I had as an 11 year old!), she cannot dress herself, she cannot prepare meals for herself, she cannot understand/communicate with others, etc. This has gotten progressively worse; she's not someone who is able to be helped my medication. She has physical health problems as well. My sister and I begged my dad throughout our lives to find a safe place for her to go, but he refused. As an adult, I was given permission to talk to my mom's psychiatrist. He told me that he recommended to my dad that my mom go live in a specific facility (covered by insurance, 5 min from our house) as early as 1998-- when I was still a child, living at home. He said that he even tried to go over my dad's head because he felt my mom was not getting proper care in the home, but "the system" ultimately did not permit him to so. My dad is a lawyer and was able to fight it. I even got my mom's psychiatrist to talk to my current T, to explain to her just how bad the situation with my mom is/was, because I was afraid she wouldn't believe me if she didn't hear it from him.

Now that my little sister has moved out as well, my dad has to care for our mom by himself. Now that it's his job, he realizes how hard it is and he can't do it. He told me just yesterday (after I posted) that he is going to finally take the doctor up on his recommendation and find a place for my mom to live safely. Apparently, last night, she attacked him.

Moving out and living alone as a college student was the first time I ever knew what it was like to feel safe in a home. Being 18 and only having myself to take care of was the biggest relief I have ever felt in my life. Like others on the board, my childhood wasn't a childhood and there's nothing I can do to go back and somehow get a childhood now that I'm an adult. That's why I'm in therapy; luckily, I did not inherit my mom's mental illness, but I do need therapy to deal with how her illness has affected me and my life. I think that if my dad had put my mom in the residential hospital that her doctor recommended, I would have had at least a little bit of a childhood. I wouldn't have had to take care of her by myself. I wouldn't have had to be subjected to her abuse. I wouldn't have fought with my dad so much about being left alone with her. I could have gone out and been with my friends, or invited friends over. I wouldn't have had to lie every day to friends/teachers/doctors about what was going on in my house. And my mom wouldn't have hurt herself so much either, because hospital staff would have protected her from herself. It may not have been ideal, but I do think it would have been better.

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by Freewilled

I just wish my dad didnt tell me that I had to keep things together at home or my mom was going to leave us. I wish he had intervened when she went off and told me I didn't love her, didnt care about her, was a selfish brat etc etc. ad nauseum.

Yeah - alternatives were not pretty for me and I doubt they were for Scorpio either. Nonetheless, children deserve to be treated as children and not parentified or literally running for their lives from their caregivers! I wish I would have been treated as a person and intervention would have come in any form that allowed me to not take responsibility for grown-ups that I had no business trying to be responsible for in the first place.

I couldn't agree more, Freewilled. I'm sorry that you had to go through this situation as well. You shouldn't have had to be "parentified" as a child. I can also relate to wishing my dad would have intervened when my "mom" would go off on me, too. It was hard to sit there as a child and be called names (ugly, pig, *****, etc) & be told things like "I never wanted you," "I wish you were never born," "I'm going to kill you when Dad isn't looking," etc. I do often wonder how my dad could sit there silently while my mom said those things to me-- and then leave me alone with her and expect me to be her caretaker. I realize I probably sound a little dark today, but all of the Mother's Day commercials on TV, the radio, on the internet etc. depress me at this time of year. It's really hard, wishing I would have had a mother. And I hate how all of my casual acquaintances and co-workers say things like "I bet you're excited for Mother's Day; do you have plans?" or "Have you done your Mother's Day shopping yet? It's so hard to think of a gift special enough for someone who's done so much for us, isn't it?" It makes me want to scream!

[Freewilled]

Originally Posted by scorpiosis37

I couldn't agree more, Freewilled. I'm sorry that you had to go through this situation as well. You shouldn't have had to be "parentified" as a child. I can also relate to wishing my dad would have intervened when my "mom" would go off on me, too. It was hard to sit there as a child and be called names (ugly, pig, *****, etc) & be told things like "I never wanted you," "I wish you were never born," "I'm going to kill you when Dad isn't looking," etc. I do often wonder how my dad could sit there silently while my mom said those things to me-- and then leave me alone with her and expect me to be her caretaker. I realize I probably sound a little dark today, but all of the Mother's Day commercials on TV, the radio, on the internet etc. depress me at this time of year. It's really hard, wishing I would have had a mother. And I hate how all of my casual acquaintances and co-workers say things like "I bet you're excited for Mother's Day; do you have plans?" or "Have you done your Mother's Day shopping yet? It's so hard to think of a gift special enough for someone who's done so much for us, isn't it?" It makes me want to scream!

Mother's Day is hard it sounds like your situation with your mom was much more extreme than mine and I'm so sorry you had to go though that but your posts on this thread resonate with me so much and I think it's because of the central themes of a mentally ill mom and need for protection, plus being made responsible for it. I felt anger well up inside me (for you) reading your story. I think I need to process through my own anger but its hard for me. My T basically says he can feel my anger, but I know that my MO is to deny it or stuff it down or focus on my compassion for others. It's hard to be angry at someone who is sick, you know? As much as I think that she could've made other choices....it's a confusing place to be

My mothers mental health wasn't the type that celebs tend to think trendy. She was a narcissist. Her abuse was cunning & insidious.

My therapist asked me once if I would have wanted to be rescued? My entanglement with my mother led me to belief she was the only person that could have contained me. That to have been taken away & placed with different parents felt dangerous to me. Sound familiar? Stockholm syndrome comes to mind.

My mothers mental health wasn't the type that celebs tend to think trendy. She was a narcissist. Her abuse was cunning & insidious.

My therapist asked me once if I would have wanted to be rescued? My entanglement with my mother led me to belief she was the only person that could have contained me. That to have been taken away & placed with different parents felt dangerous to me. Sound familiar? Stockholm syndrome comes to mind.

[nicoleb2]

My dad had bipolar, my sister and brother and I had therapy off and on for a few years, but then my dad finally got stuff under control, no longer had manic or deeply despressive episodes he once had.

I deal with my own depression right now, and do my best to keep my two kids from dealing with any of it.
My 10 year old I have talked to about depression, not about my own issues, but that feeling sad sometimes is normal, but if it's all the time, then we want her to talk to us, or her therapist or anyone she's comfortable with (she has had some times when she waS sad for quite a while, particularly when m mom and grandma died), so she knows some about it
My 7 year old, we talk about feelings frequently, but haven't really discussed depression. When he is older, we will because I want him to know that he can talk to us, or anyone he needs to if it happens to him.

Have my kids had to deal with my mentaal illness? Yes, indirectly when I was hospitalized, but they have never had to parent me or take care of me, because I make a concerted effort to assure that doesn't happen, because I admit my illness, and because I have help.

Unfortunately, a lot of kids have to deal with stuff they shouldn't have to, and I don't think that will ever change. I think all we can do as parents is to make sure kids get to be kids and get the help we need

[tinyrabbit]

Originally Posted by Perna

Too, what would you have liked instead? We cannot cart your mother to the "mad house"/hospital, no one can afford that and doing so would have impacted you negatively too, because as a child you would not have understood.

Personally, I would completely have understood if my mother had put her children first and left my father. I would not have been upset if my parents had got divorced - in fact I repeatedly suggested it. I would not have been impacted negatively if my family had broken up. I would have understood. What I didn't understood was why they stayed together, why nobody listened to me, and why I was forced to live with people who were horrible to me.

Generally speaking, I've often encountered this myth that it's better for families to stay together. In my case, it really wasn't.

I'm sorry that anyone is in a position to post on this thread.

(((hugs)))