Not to hijack another thread.
What do people think a real relationship is? What makes it real?

[ultramar]

Do you mean compared to the therapeutic relationship, or within the therapeutic relationship --or just in general?

[Fuzzybear]

I'm also interested in hearing people's opinions on this.

[Littlemeinside]

How I define a real relationship is where one isn´t paying the other to have one

I am sure there are tons of definitions of what a real realtionship is ( in and outside of T), the above was just my first thought.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by Littlemeinside

How I define a real relationship is where one isn´t paying the other to have one

I am sure there are tons of definitions of what a real realtionship is ( in and outside of T), the above was just my first thought.

Surprised I agree with you, I bet. Ah, the money. Yes, "there's the rub". I can't argue with the fact that we pay our Ts or we wouldn't have the relationship in the first place.

But there's more to it than that. You can pay someone and still have a relationship with them. I'm suddenly remembering the cleaning lady my Mom used to have when I was little. I don't think she ever referred to her as "the cleaning lady", but by her name which was something like "Warsella" I think. She was more like a member of the family though she didn't live with us, and my Mom definitely paid her. She cared about us, and my Mom cared about her and her family. She used to give her our outgrown clothes for her family. She knew about Warsella's kids and what was going on in her life. Warsella probably baby-sat for me sometimes, too. I haven't thought about her in years but the warm glow in my heart when I do tells me this was a "real relationship" though money was involved.

[ultramar]

I'm going to go with authenticity.

[Littlemeinside]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Surprised I agree with you, I bet. Ah, the money. Yes, "there's the rub". I can't argue with the fact that we pay our Ts or we wouldn't have the relationship in the first place.

But there's more to it than that. You can pay someone and still have a relationship with them. I'm suddenly remembering the cleaning lady my Mom used to have when I was little. I don't think she ever referred to her as "the cleaning lady", but by her name which was something like "Warsella" I think. She was more like a member of the family though she didn't live with us, and my Mom definitely paid her. She cared about us, and my Mom cared about her and her family. She used to give her our outgrown clothes for her family. She knew about Warsella's kids and what was going on in her life. Warsella probably baby-sat for me sometimes, too. I haven't thought about her in years but the warm glow in my heart when I do tells me this was a "real relationship" though money was involved.

No, not surpriced at all, it had to happen sooner or later To make matters worse, I thought your example with the " cleaning lady" is a great example of lets say our relationship with our T´s and vice versa. Food for comfort and thought, even though money is involved.

[ultramar]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Surprised I agree with you, I bet. Ah, the money. Yes, "there's the rub". I can't argue with the fact that we pay our Ts or we wouldn't have the relationship in the first place.

But there's more to it than that. You can pay someone and still have a relationship with them. I'm suddenly remembering the cleaning lady my Mom used to have when I was little. I don't think she ever referred to her as "the cleaning lady", but by her name which was something like "Warsella" I think. She was more like a member of the family though she didn't live with us, and my Mom definitely paid her. She cared about us, and my Mom cared about her and her family. She used to give her our outgrown clothes for her family. She knew about Warsella's kids and what was going on in her life. Warsella probably baby-sat for me sometimes, too. I haven't thought about her in years but the warm glow in my heart when I do tells me this was a "real relationship" though money was involved.

I know this is a bit off topic, but a lot of the patients I work with are cleaning ladies. I just think that the often huge chasm of socioeconomic class between family & maids makes the relationship unique. One of the main differences between paying T's and paying maids, is that, if you drop your cleaning lady, that lack of income may mean not being able to pay her rent and/or feeding her children (hence, also she may be far more obsequious than others one pays, much less a therapist), whereas if you quit a therapist, it's unlikely to cause such economic and familial upheaval (they're not so dependent on you). What I'm trying to say is that the extent of dependence of cleaning ladies on those who pay them is light years away from therapists' dependence on the one paycheck, and this really changes the dynamic. It doesn't mean there can't be real caring there, it's just... different.

On the other hand, rainbow, I think what you're saying is perfectly valid, not insensitive, and I get it, just putting a different perspective out there.

[DelusionsDaily]

Hmmm...good question. I think I might have to redefine what a relationship is to me or be very lonely. Apparently my standards are too high for the majority in this world...even most of my family.

[BonnieJean]

One that has two way interpersonal interaction that is for the benefit of more than just one of the parties and does not including payment.

[rainbow8]

My T has told me that we have a "real" relationship; it's just different and unique. It's still "real" as opposed to fake. I think a professional relationship can still be real so I'm defining "real" in a different way. Maybe I'm defining it as "meaningful" or even "close".

How about a relationship with a hooker?
That person is paid and for the moments that she/he is with you, she/he says she/he cares. They might even say they love you!
Some people use the same hookers over and over.
But without the $$, there is no "love."

Relationships = two way where individuals give and take without money or services being involved.

Tollhouse, I had the idea of prostitution as well and couldn't bring myself to type it out. That's how it feels to me now. And I had a GREAT therapy relationship. But it was over just like that, like I didn't even matter in the least.

[Stereo]

I had also previously thought that the therapist/client relationship is strongly analogous to the prostitute/client relationship. The T MAY be authentic towards the client, but how can the client ever know that? (The T is obligated to offer "unconditional positive regard.") Also, if not for the exchange of dollars, the T wouldn't see the client. In my opinion, it's not a real rel'p.

[(JD)]

Short and sweet, imo, a real relationship is one that adds to who you are, your character, and has no personal gain involved...and is one where you can give and add to the other's character without an ulterior motive as well.

I strongly dislike any idea of comparing a therapist with a prostitute. Truly you don't know either of those occupations!

be well.

[rainboots87]

Just because someone receives pay doesn't mean the relationship is suddenly fake. I don't believe that about my Ts, and I don't believe that about the kids I mentor. I work with at-risk kids- yes, for (a little bit) of money, but that's not why I do it. My job is very similar to providing play and talk therapy, but major issues are deferred to my social worker supervisor. I have a caseload of teens and preteens who I meet with an hour a week, help run five groups, and am there as a consistent, stable adult in their lives. Just because I get paid doesn't change the fact that I care about these kids very much and want the best for them. There is zero contact outside of the school site I work at, it's very much one-sided (I'm there for them, not the other way around), and it's incredibly real.

I guess real doesn't mean anything though if it's just going to end one day. I don't want real. I want fake so it won't hurt so much. I want to believe it's fake if that makes sense.

[rainboots87]

Originally Posted by roseleigh7

I guess real doesn't mean anything though if it's just going to end one day. I don't want real. I want fake so it won't hurt so much. I want to believe it's fake if that makes sense.

I know it's tough, and I've struggled with T attachment, but all relationships eventually come to an end. I've had amazing friendships that have faded away, people pass away, an end is going to happen regardless of payment involved.

[FeelTheBurn]

I have no illusions about my relationship with my T being limited and based on our professional agreement, but I still count it as a relationship. She shares energy, communication, infinite attention and patience, some personal information, and a truly genuine warmth and affection for me. And I, in return, give my commitment to the work (which is about me) and share my genuine warmth and affection for her. The limitations of our relationship are based on the professional restrictions of therapy, which serve us both, imo.

It is not like my other relationships. In some ways, it is much less free and mutual. In other ways, it is much better. None of its unique characteristics take it out of the realm of relationship, i.e. two people relating to one another.

And I would wholeheartedly agree, as someone with experience with both, that any comparison between a prostitute and a good therapist is specious and borders on offensive. In my mind, there is no comparison.

Originally Posted by rainboots87

I know it's tough, and I've struggled with T attachment, but all relationships eventually come to an end. I've had amazing friendships that have faded away, people pass away, an end is going to happen regardless of payment involved.

I probably would have been ok if it hadn't ended so so so horribly and traumatically and unethically. Or it might have been a little easier anyway.

Originally Posted by FeelTheBurn

And I would wholeheartedly agree, as someone with experience with both, that any comparison between a prostitute and a good therapist is specious and borders on offensive. In my mind, there is no comparison.

Interesting that you find it offensive. Both are professions, with prostitition being the oldest. It did not work for you, but it works for many others, that's why the profession continues...

Both receive money for service provided.
Both give comfort; some clients get physical comfort, some clients get emotional comfort.
Both use various techniques and methods for the different clients.
Both won't provide service without pay.

Both have boundaries.
Let me give you an excellent example...
As someone who has lived on the streets as a result of growing up in the system, I knew many hookers.... and many who will not kiss on the lips.
That "boundary" exists because they feel it is very initimate and reserved for the ones they truly care about. Kiss everywhere else, but not the lips.
Some minimize eye contact and reserve it for the kids in their lives.

Both have time limits...

Many have experienced sadness in their lives.

Suspend your judgement of the profession. They are very similar, especially when considering the services provided by "high-class" hookers who may also act as escorts.
Some of them are "trained" how to behave when escorting.
But if the money doesn't flow, there is no relationship.

[ultramar]

The thing is, in the case of 'real life' friendships and relationships, these too can involve personal, even selfish, gain, the relationship can be very lopsided (one giving, emotionally and otherwise, a lot more than the other), and they can be 'fake' in some ways as well. Money isn't exchanged (or usually isn't, or isn't directly), but it's not like because it's real life and not therapeutic, the relationship would necessarily be any more authentic than the therapeutic relationship.

I think it's perfectly plausible to have a more 'authentic' relationship with one's therapist than with some others in one's life (be it family members, friends, lovers, etc.). I want 'authenticity' (from myself as well) in and outside the therapy room --though this is hard for me to explain.

[FeelTheBurn]

At the risk of derailing the thread (which I will not do), I was not judging "the profession" in the least. And I would encourage you not to infer from my post that it "didn't work for" me or that I find it offensive in itself. I do not.

The borderline offense comes from the comparison between the clearly "put on" affection or desire of a prostitute, and what is, for me, a very real and clear tenderness of feeling between my T and I. It devalues that relationship in the extreme, and makes it all about money, which in the vast number of instances is the case with prostitutes. I do not believe that is the case with many therapists.

Your belief may be that the therapeutic relationship is all about the cash; if that is your experience and feeling, then I can't argue with that. That is not my feeling or my experience. I saw a therapist for several years, when I was dirt poor, who would forbear my payment for extended periods of time, and I would pay her when I could, keep track and pay her back when I could, and sometimes not even that. And not once did it disrupt the quality or nature of our work or relationship. I doubt I would receive the same consideration from a prostitute.

.
Actually you know nothing about my experiences with Ts.

You shared your opinion and I shared mine.
However, I did not say your opinion was specious (wrong) or offensive.
I did not attack you for your view that you wanted to share. I shared mine.

There are multiple examples on PC of Ts stopping therapy when the money runs out. Even on the internet, google it. Lots of people dumped after long-term therapy.

therapist dumped me/no $/scared [Archive] - SFWED Remember It Hurts Community (ED ran out of $$)
Feeling Abandoned by a Therapist She Can No Longer Afford....*-*belleruthnaparstek.com (after 2 years, PTSD, etc)

"Therapists may become resentful if they are not paid, and that only hurts the client,” Bahar says.
Slideshow: 13 Things Your Therapist Wants You to Know

It seems a few of you go straight to the money. If money passes hands than it's fake.
What about feelings? Can people not see past the fee? Or perhaps it's fair to say a lot if T's are crap and really have little in themselves to offer other than service?
I certainly have experienced realness in the room. The money? Oh gosh,is our relationship with our children not real when we give them pocket money?