Found Out Something Disturbing About T

My T told me about 9 months ago that she was ending her marriage with her husband and was now in a relationship with a woman who is also a therapist. That was definitely quite a bit of information to hear (she shared it in context; it made sense to disclose that at the time), but it was not earth-shattering. It left me with the question of: "did T cheat?" but nothing significant beyond that. Today, I heard from someone who knows a friend of T that T's new partner is actually T's (now ex) therapist! The woman T went to in order to get counseling for her marital issues is now her partner. If T chose to engage in a relationship with her own T, what does that say about her as a T herself? That just seems so unethical that it t really creeps me out. At this point, it is also a rumor because I have not heard it from T herself... but the person I heard it from is in Ts larger social circle and certainly would know who T was bringing as her "plus one" to social events. It also turns out that it's the same woman that my friend (who also sees T) told me she thought was dating T several months ago, when she saw the woman leave (a little too happy!) from Ts office as she was going in. This T was also featured in the newspaper awhile back: there was a whole story about her losing her T license for immediately beginning a sexual relationship with a client following termination (i.e. they did not wait the required 2 years; she stopped seeing T and the next day they were partners). So... my question is: what the hell do I do with this information? Do I keep it to myself? Do I ask T if it's true? Do I tell T that I heard "a rumor" about her and ask her what I should do in this kind of a situation? Let her decide if she wants to know about the rumor or respond to it? It's really, really creeping me out to think that my T is with her own T. It just calls her judgment into question and makes me lose trust in her. Unfortunately, it's also coming at a time when my connection with T is really good and I really need her. We just got over a minor rupture, and I've been feeling really close and connected to her since then. I don't want to bring this up, as I know it's NONE of my business... but how can knowing something like that not affect my therapy? It's also possible that it's not true... but I really think it is. Please help me figure out what I should do about this.

((ScorpioSis))

* You have the right to remain silent.
* You have the right to tell her what you've heard.
* You have the right to ask her if it is true.
* She has the right not to answer.

* You have the right to keep seeing her regardless.
* You have the right to quit and not say why.
* However, if you are going to quit over what you've heard, I personally would be more comfortable if you told her why.

True it´s really NOT your business. Seems to be a whole lot of gossip/ rumours about T´s going on in your circle of friends, that you seem to engage in too.

So what.... to be honest. Perhaps they fell in love had the two year separation? Had loads of supervision and support? Or whatever. So what if your T may have cheated on her husband. They are humans like the rest of us. Still belongs to her private life.

You can still have a T relationship and not know this about her. I am sure you can go to work and not affect your students with your personal issues. Give her the opportunity to do the same.

If you feel like you really NEED to know just ask her. I´m sure she will respond within her personal boundaries. If not maybe look into why this is so important to you, in a professional setting, that´s supposed to be about you ..not T´s private life. If it´s true... in what way have it affected your professional relationship? You have trusted her so far. She´s not dating a former client. Let is rest

You asked for an opinion, that´s what I am offering.

Btw if the newspaper wrote an article on the other T ( even writing she dated a client the day after termination) what actions were taking? She seems to be still practicing, makes me think it´s all in the rumours and " drama"in the community".

Wow. I'm really sorry this is happening. In your situation, if this info is true, it would completely undermine my confidence in her judgement. I also really hope this woman is no longer practicing.

This is a tough spot to be in... I'd probably tell my T about it- just because I hate when there's stg left unsaid in our RS (from my side- T keeps it to himself for which I'm grateful). I made sure we didn't share anything outside the room (no way for me to learn stg about his personal life aside from googling him which I'd never do). t
The important thing for me is that your T was the client there- i.e. this was her personal life not professional life. So for me no biggie- pretty sure my T made tons of bad decision in his personal life to. Would be really freak out if I'd learnt my T started dating his client though.

I'd tell your friend, to not tell you things, that leave you confused about your own t.
Dang,that's a load of dramatic gossip. Why is everyone, all up in your t's personal life, anyways?

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Yikes. That is a whole lot to handle.

I remember the whole "Did T cheat?" question, which can be a really tough one to struggle with depending on what your feelings are around that. Yet, since it's so personal, I can see why it would be bothersome, but not totally game-changing. Since you can't really know what the circumstances were, or how she feels about it if she did cheat, it's probably easier to set aside.

But it's harder when you're now bringing in issues about how your T views therapy. I agree with others that it would freak me out way more if she were the T and not the client in the situation. Still... it would make me feel weird about how she might view the client-T relationship, and whether that might influence the way she is as a T herself. I have to admit, when she kept bringing up how it's too bad you don't have a partner to help you out right now... I mean, that was something I thought about too (H and I both did our time in academia, but thankfully not at the same time, and it really really helped to have someone who could lend a hand). But I'm not going to keep sticking it in your face because it doesn't help. So it made me wonder why she kept wanting to bring that into the room, when it clearly wasn't the biggest issue on the table, or anywhere near it. I'm not saying she was hitting on you -- you'd probably know if that was the case. But I am saying she seemed to be really preoccupied with it. Combined with this new information, I'd be a little weirded out too.

If it were me, I don't think I'd be able to avoid bringing it up. It would definitely affect my interaction with my own T. I'd probably bring it up and present it more as, "I heard this, and it's bothering me. I know you don't have to, and might not want to, tell me whether it's true, but it's affecting me a lot." At the very least, start a conversation about how it's making you feel. The more you talk through it, the more you may be able to discern whether this is something you can deal with, or something that's just going to bother you too much. For instance, if she is able to handle your feelings professionally and talk through them and what they mean to you, you might feel a lot better even knowing that information about her. But if she gets defensive, that could be a bad sign.

Good luck with it.

This really does sound like some vicious gossip to me and gossip hurts all involved. This is a perfect example of that. I'm sorry you heard it. It's going to be hard to unhear, but doable.

If the therapist your T is now involved with lost her license, then how could she be your therapist's therapist? Perhaps it was more like colleagues anyway. Even if she did lose her license, there are always two sides to every story, and your therapist may know all of it, not was the public knows.

I think what you need to talk to your therapist about is why you went to worst case scenario about her involvement in this, when you obviously like and have been helped by her. It all might be completely benign. I think this action on your part bears some reflection.

It's a messy situation, especially since it is all based on hearsay and rumors at this point. That makes it quite difficult to approach. And knowing more might not help either. My shrink has self-disclosed but only things that would be helpful and make the relationship safer. I'm not sure that disclosure around this issue would do that, though that is what you are wondering about. You have said in other threads that your therapy is focused on the relationship and mentioned a few issues you have. So I can see why this would have a negative effect on you and why you would want deal with it. Unfortunately, I can't see a clear way into it that would be entirely safe and productive, but I'll keep thinking about it. Good luck. I can see why this is difficult.

I actually did not hear the rumor from someone in my circle of friends. I happened to go on a date with a woman I met online, who also happens to be a therapist. I told her about my career, and then she started telling me about hers, and she said "just to show you how crazy therapists can be, let me tell you this story!" Half way through, I realized she was talking about MY T! I told her that was my T, and asked her to stop the story. She felt awful as she obviously didn't know it was my T. She said the lesbian therapist community is so small; she should have realized that "everyone knew everyone." There will be no second date; I wasn't interested in her, irrespective of the information I learned about T.

My friend who also sees my T has told me things about T, which I asked her to stop sharing with me... and which she now respects. However, the fact that she saw T with this woman is something she told me a long time ago, before I put that boundary in place.

The other T is NOT still practicing. She lost her licence for engaging in a sexual relationship with her client, as reported by the newspaper. That part is a fact, whether or not the client in question was my T.

Maybe I misunderstood: this sounded far more conclusive than gossip. The T lost her license because of entering into a sexual relationship immediately post termination (which often indicates that therapy was terminated in order to pursue a personal relationship.) The timing and what Scorpiosis's T told her of her own relationship seem to fit. I do think it needs to be talked about and confirmed by the T. And if true, while it would be more predatory if she were the T who lost the license, it would still bother me greatly that as a client who is a T she was a party to this action. She cannot claim ignorance or innocence about the seriousness of the ethical breech. That's what would undermine my confidence in her judgement.

I agree that I would want want to discuss this and I would do it but my relationship to my therapist is frank enough to do so. I may have misunderstood as well. Perhaps it is more than just gossip. I also agree that it would undermine my confidence in my therapist's judgement as well. And it would be harmful to me if I had the types of issues that Scorpio has mentioned, some of which I happen to share and use the therapeutic relationship to address.

How can it be completely benign if the other T lost her license over it? I admit, I looked up & read the newspaper after I heard the story about my T because I was freaked out and hoping to prove it was NOT true-- at least that my T was not the client, and the article said that the client had attended 84 therapy sessions with the T. That's about 2 years of weekly therapy. That's not short-term therapy, or something more like colleagues. Even if the woman I went on a date with was wrong about this being T's partner (and T being the former client), it's a fact that T and this woman are close and spend time together. That makes me question Ts judgment as a T.

There have been a lot of posts on the board lately about the importance of "the relationship" in therapy. For me, the relationship is a central part of my therapy. I'm in therapy because i never had a "safe" adult or a secure attachment growing up. That's something that T is helping me work through. She's telling me that she can be that "safe" person and I'm working on developing a secure attachment with her. This makes me question if she's safe, because if she thinks that T-client relationships are okay... then that doesn't feel safe. I can accept that T is human and T has a personal life. What is hard for me to accept is that T might not have good professional boundaries. If she accepts that behavior as a client, who's to say she doesn't accept that as a T?

Very good, smart people doing good things in the world and business, make stupid decisions all the time. Especially when hormones are involved. If she is keeping clear boundaries with you, and you are making progress in you therapy, I would probably stick with her.

Whether I talked with her about it is another question. I probably wouldn't tell her what I think I know, as she might then get triggered and it would ruin therapy. I would probably be on higher alert for problems with her boundaries or therapy. It would probably affect my attachment to T. But if I was making progress, and nothing weird was going on, I'd stick with what was working.

Gee, what are the odds of this happening...

Maybe, like most Ts in therapy, she just felt the rules don't apply to her? Like: I really do want to have sex with my T because of the way she is no transference whatsoever. I'm a T I would know... Bad personal judgement? Sure. Does it say anything about her ability to be a good T? I don't think so.
I do believe though an honest discussion is in order. It's not about her it's about this influencing Scorpiosis' therapy.

EDIT:
Read your last post- I totally get that. I too would be freaked out by a T thinking it's OK to date clients... If that's what's going on I'd leave immediately. As hard as it may be you really should discuss all this with her on your next session. I too needed a validation (several times TBH) that T-client RS is absolutely safe.

Thank-you. Yes, this is exactly what happened (as far as I know) and exactly what my concerns are.

However, I'm very nervous about bringing this issue up with my T. I don't want her to get defensive or feel violated, and I don't want it to cause a rift between myself and T. I don't want her to think I intentionally pried into her private life or that I want to involve myself in her private issues. I don't, at all. I really didn't want to know. But, now that I know some of this information, I think it will impede my ability to focus on the work of therapy because it will make me think "T's not safe/T has bad judgment." At the very least, knowing-- and not talking to T about it-- will make me feel like there is this elephant in the room. I don't even know if I need to ask T if what I heard is true. Maybe I just need to tell her I heard "something" about her, and ask how she thinks we should deal with that? Let her decide if she wants to know what I heard?

Even if the relationship were not a central part of your therapy I could still see why it would be troublesome for you. The rules against dual relationships exist precisely for this reason - this is about professional ethics, it is not just personal. Your t may have been the client in this case but that doesn't let her off the hook. She is a t as well and knows better! Of course the dynamic between the two of you has changed now. I think if you bring it up indirectly like you said, that will give her a minute to process what you might say. She might get defensive but shouldn't...if she's going to use such poor judgement she needs to be prepared for the consequences.

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scoriosis, you may have answered your own question. You brought up the issue of safety. That has to be in place for therapy almost at all times. If you are having doubts about whether it is safe anymore, then you seem to need to secure that it is going to be safe for you. And given the issues you are working on, that makes total sense. I wouldn't worry about her feelings. She has to keep them at bay and focus on you and what you need from her. Your post just before this last one words it in a way that might give you the language for bringing it up in terms of your need for safety and why it is so important to you. Having other concerns about her feelings is less important than the basic need for safety.

ugh, this is a horrible situation, i don't envy you at all. I have no idea what i'd do in this situation.
I think i'd feel like it was kind of seedy. I mean the therapist/client crossing into sexual/romantic love territory is way out of bounds and those two people of all people know that. I also feel there's maybe a vulnerability there in your T in that she left her husband for a female. If that's her first gay relationship then there's a chance she's led by transference and confusion/excitement of her own sexuality rather than simply meeting someone she fell in love with. And that sort of instability and vulnerability in my T would scare me simply because i have to believe she is strong and emotionally sorted herself. But i am inferring a lot here and maybe that's not the case, maybe she's very secure in her sexuality and has always been bi-sexual. But if your T is going thru a lot of turmoil just now i can totally see why that's very uncomfortable for you.

I think this should be less about whether T wants to know what you heard, and more about what's going to help you. If you don't need to know whether it's true, that's fine, but it's specifically what you heard that's making you feel uncertain and unsafe. You seem to be trying to protect her, and maybe to some extent yourself from the discomfort of approaching this topic -- but I don't think talking around it will really improve the situation much more than not talking about it.

Thank-you. I am making progress in therapy and there is nothing weird going on. I'm not at all concerned that T would violate THAT boundary with me or anything of that nature. That's not something that is present in my therapy at all. However, I do remember my T telling me that she felt "energy" with other clients before (not me). I remember thinking that was odd at the time, and I do remember thinking "why would she tell me that?" Now that feels a little troubling. I don't think my T acted on that with any of her clients at all, but it does make me think that her boundaries/judgment as a T may not be very good.

I do feel that my Ts boundaries are a little relaxed, and there are ways that I make my own boundaries tighter than she does. For instance, she told me that if I wanted to check-in with her on Friday (the day after Thanksgiving), I could do so even though it was a holiday weekend, and she told me what times she would be available. I didn't really understand that, as I never said I was struggling or I needed that. Quite honestly, I think it's better for me that I self-cope as opposed to reach out to T whenever I need something. When I had my last session, I told T about a bad experience I had over Thanksgiving (something unexpected), and she asked me why I didn't call her. I said: "because I wanted to self-cope" and she told me that was my choice, but she would have been happy to hear form me. She encouraged me to reach out to her next time, rather than experience something alone. I also told her that a part of me misses my ex and, even though I'm not going to call her because I know she isn't right for me, that I still have some feelings for my ex. My T immediately said that if I start feeling like I want to call my ex, I should call her instead and talk to her as opposed to call my ex. I understand that she is encouraging me not to call my ex (it would not be healthy to call my ex), but I don't think calling my T instead is the solution. I think that would make me more dependent on T, and that isn't something I want. A part of me does like that T has somewhat relaxed boundaries because it makes the relationship feel human, it makes me feel like T cares about me, and it makes it easier for me to attach to T. However, because I had some attachment/boundary issues when I was younger, I don't want Ts boundaries to be so loose that I regress and begin reaching out to T when something difficult happens, as opposed to self-coping or reaching out in real life. I do not see my Ts boundaries as any kind of invitation into her real life; that's not it. But I do question her judgment as far as how best to help me with recovering from my childhood attachment issues and having healthy RL relationships as an adult.

I suppose knowing that she thinks the therapeutic boundaries can be broken makes me feel like "will she break therapeutic boundaries in other ways?" I have no concerns about the sexual boundaries whatsoever, but I do perhaps have some concerns about maintaining the therapeutic frame and not allowing things to be come too "friend-like." I really don't know what is best for me therapeutically. A part of me wants that warm, maternal relationship with her in order to heal from my childhood, but a part of me also needs T to set limits and make sure that I'm focusing on RL and self-coping and not using T as a crutch to fill that void.

I don't really know how you get what you need without being rather specific. It might be possible to preface what you say with a statement about you heard some info about her relationship that has upset you, and while you would prefer to not know details of her private life, you need clarity because it affects your ability to feel safe in the relationship. With any luck, she'll ask you directly what you need to know. If she does get defensive and weird, I hate to say it, but that's probably what you need to know. The only reason to get defensive would be her ambivalence about the ethics of what she got involved in. Then you'd have to decide what you can live with. I don't envy you this session. But you need to know, and you deserve to feel safe.

This would really, really bother me. If my T did something like this, it would shake my trust. If a T can't keep boundaries and make sane decisions in their life, how can I trust them to help me with mine. I agree everyone is human, but having an unethical, ill-advised, and frowned upon career destroying relationship wouldn't give me a lot of confidence. Those are the kinds of choices that lead people into therapy.

If I was in your shoes I would have to ask my T, but I would do it in a polite way. I would not want to give the impression that I would be bothered either way hoping to get an honest reply. Maybe you can think of a coy way to fit this into the conversation? Sometimes rumors are just that and stories get sensationalized, it's possible it's not even true. I've learned to trust my T by baiting him a bit, and I will continue to do so.

Just to answer your last question, my T has always been bisexual. She has had relationships with women in the past. I found my T specifically because I'm a lesbian and I wanted a T who identifies as bi/lesbian.

That aside, I'm noticing that I'm feeling some anger towards my T's T/partner. Even though my T is a T and she is bi, I can't help but feel like this other woman violated her ethical obligations to my T. Of course, I don't know the situation and it's none of my business. Clearly, my T consented to the situation and says she's happy now. I want her to be happy. But I can't help but think: "I understand transference. Is my T just experiencing transference? Did this other woman take advantage of that? My T wanted help with her marriage. Isn't involving herself in Ts marriage the worst possible thing she could do?" I feel protective of my T (even though that isn't my job) and I kind of feel like this other woman is a predator. That may not be how things played out at all; I don't know. But it just feels yucky. It also makes me wonder if my T is vulnerable and being manipulated. And, if so, how does that affect how she does her job, as my T?

Thanks for clearing that up, that put a little bit of a different slant on things. I suppose, because your T is a therapist that maybe she's in a healthier place and isn't affected quite so much by transference in the same way a lot of non-therapist people would be, so the attraction to her marriage therapist was real and the relationship was more collegial than therapist/client so there wasn't so much of a power difference? If that's the case it's more a scenario of two people falling in love and while it's still technically an ethic violation, it must have been strong enough of a "thing" for the therapist to risk her career for.

I wonder who reported it tho?