Found Out Something Disturbing About T

I havent read this whole thread mainly just the original posters first post...

my point of view on that first post is that it may not be a problem for the two t's seeing each other...

here in the USA there are rules, ethics. some of those rules ethics concern whether therapists and their clients can enter into a relationship after the client is no longer seeing that therapist...

some locations the rule is no time has to pass and the only thing that needs to be done is that the therapist/client must end their professional relationship if they find their self in a personal relationship with their clients. once the professional relationship has ended the client and therapist are free to do what they want.

some locations place time constraints like here in NY a client and therapist are able to enter into a non professional relationship after 2 years have past since the two have been client/therapist.

in my cultural background a treatment provider can be have a non professional relationship with the client at the same time. simply because of limited resources, or type of culture it is...when I lived on the reservation the healer was also my relative and also my teacher, also my elder.....at the moment one of my best friends is one of the governing elders. does that mean she and I cant be friends anymore because she now has to over see that when I am living among them I have to follow the rules and she must enforce the rules. the healer in the community I went to school with and when I am visiting or living among them that friend/school mate is also my medical doctor.

what Im saying is, its easy to make judgements about someone elses life, including who our treatment providers are. here in the USA if someone has a problem with their treatment providers services or private life they can quit seeing that treatment provider and find another one, ask the treatment provider for a referral to a new treatment provider or work it out with that treatment provider.

its not up to me whether the original posters treatment provider is being unethical or not only that treatment provider and her ethical committee can answer to that.

my suggestion discuss this with that treatment provider, if it still makes you uncomfortable then terminate treatment with this treatment provider and move on to another treatment provider that you will be comfortable with.

I must say I'm amazed by the degree of willingness to accept S's T's rationalization. Let me make clear that I'm not holding her to some standard of conduct in her personal life; I don't care who she chooses as a partner in her life. But her defense of her partner's actions by equivocating and minimizing the clear ethical (and in some states what would be illegal) transgression here reflects a professional judgment, not a personal one. She could have chosen to defend her partner's character (saying it was a difficult situation and her partner realizes the mistake, whatever), while not rationalizing the action, but she didn't do that. She really seemed to be not seeing the transgression as absolute. That's a professional judgment I find very troubling.

I think it would be important to talk through again if only to give her the chance to clarify her view, in case she misspoke.

I agree with everything you said Sally, except your analogy. A MC who accepts his partner's past infidelity, in some ways, models the power of change and reconcilliation. It's like an endorsement of the profession. It seems the opposite of defending--or choosing to be in denial of--a transgression of professional ethics. If anything, such an action would lend more credence to the MC's professional judgment in my eyes.

I still feel that if the genders were changed, there would be a harsher view taken toward the situation. IDK why there should be a perceived difference, but I feel like there is.

I guess I missed the part of T rationalizing the behavior. I agree with you.

Scorpiosis, could you clarify about whether your T's words were rationalizing or dismissive about her partner's actions? Maybe I misunderstood, but that was my impression.

Thank-you. That is exactly what troubled me about T's response. I would have felt MUCH better about the situation if she said something like: "It was a grievous error; that's never okay in therapy. While I cannot defend the action, she has really taken responsibility and learned from that experience." Or, if she didn't want to be specific about her partner, she could have said "people who make those kinds of mistakes can really learn and repent and grow to become better people/therapists." If she would have said something that demonstrated that she does NOT condone that behavior, that would have made me feel better about her as a professional. It also would have made me feel better about T's own judgment if she had made it clear that her partner (or "people") understood that it was not okay and had done some work on herself after that situation. What bothered me was that T seemed to minimize the experience, making it sound as though her partner was a "victim" in the situation-- which she was not. T made it sound as though the woman I went on the date with, who told me this story, was the perpetrator and her partner was the victim of this woman's story. She said she felt sorry that her partner had this baggage following her around. That, to me, seems like an inappropriate attitude to have. Personally, I think if someone makes that kind of an ethical error, then they can't complain about the consequences.

I don't view the situation as though I have "criteria" and T has violated something on my "list." I don't have a list, nor do I view ethics in black and white terms. I don't think it's necessarily "wrong" in and of itself for my T to date another T who had a relationship with a client. However, I felt T's response was just a little bit "off" and that is what bothered me. I have no desire to get any more information from T about the situation. That isn't my information to know and, quite frankly, I don't want to know any more. I wish that I didn't know this information at all. There isn't anything I need my T to do or say in order to "fix" this situation with me. I just need to feel my feelings, give it a week, and bring my feelings up with T at my next session, if I need to. I don't view this as a deal-breaker, nor do I think this is going to get in the way of my therapy in the long run. It may be getting in the way of my therapy this week, but I believe T and I can get past it. We have gotten past other things before, and we'll get past new things in the future. This is also not the first time that I've felt my T has made a choice that has ethical implications. However, I really don't view myself as passing judgment on T or condemning her for her choices. Rather, I see myself as "having feelings" about something I've learned about T, and I think I need to give myself the time and space to feel them and work through them-- with or without my T. I am asking questions (to myself) about T's professional judgment, but that doesn't mean I think she is "unethical" or "bad." I actually don't believe that I've lost my unconditional positive regard for T. I still have unconditional positive regard for her; I still feel gratitude, warmth, compassion, caring, respect and affection for my T. I view her as a human who is navigating a complex situation. Would I navigate that situation differently if I were her? Perhaps. But I'm not her, and I don't need her to respond the same way I would respond. I think it's possible to question someone's judgment without losing your positive regard for them. Kind of like a parent saying "you made a bad choice but I still love you." I still want to work with my T and I still think my T can help me. The issue is just how do I process my feelings, and can I do the rest of that processing alone/on the forum or do I need to bring it up with my T again. I'll give it a week and see.

The thing I worry about is, you just recently had a huge thread all about how T was "making it sound" a certain way about many things -- like your diet -- but it turned out that what you were hearing wasn't what she was saying. None of us can know the words T used, and I certainly don't expect you to be able to recall perfectly or provide a transcript, but to my eye, there is a LOT of room for interpretation when someone feels that someone is "making it sound like" or "making it seem like". How? Did she SAY the patient was a predator? And did she maybe not say that she didn't condone what T did because she didn't think she had to? Remember, you have had time to think about what you'd want to hear from T to feel better. Not only does she not know what you're thinking, but she only had a few seconds to respond. The only way to know how she personally feels about her partner's behavior is to ask her.

And I also bolded a part that again is sort of taking what T says as passing for how her partner feels. You've never heard her partner complain about the consequences. You don't KNOW how the partner feels about the consequences. Unless T actually said, "My partner complains about the consequences," which would be quite clear, what I see is T having compassion for someone who has burdened herself with her own bad actions. That can potentially be positive, in the right context. It can also be negative.

I would just caution you to step back and acknowledge that, as with other communications with your T in the past, you may be seeing this through the lens of your own experience, and not allowing room for interpretation. I say this partly because of the other thread, and partly because of something you said earlier:

I know you see this as "having feelings", and not passing judgment, and I think it's perfectly normal to try to understand the situation by comparing it to what it would mean for you in your own situation. At the same time... it seems to me like you're in danger of making a lot of assumptions about the situation based on what it might be like for you, and while all of your assumptions might be true, it's dangerous to leave them untested just because you don't feel comfortable talking about your feelings to T.

I wouldn't blame if you if you wanted to leave your T over this. It's weird and unsettling and short of a really insight-giving explanation, bothersome. I understand if you're unwilling to see whether there is a really insight-giving explanation. That is fine. The basic facts of the situation may be enough to make you too uncomfortable, and that makes a lot of sense to me. But I guess, it worries me MORE that you don't want to talk to your T about it, than it worries me that your T is dating an exT who crossed an ethical boundary. If you did speak to your T about it, and she came right out and said that her partner didn't do anything wrong -- well, there you go then. But by not talking about it, you will always leave that open, and I am going to go out on a limb to say the feelings you have aren't likely to go away.

I think this also highlights something from that previous thread, which is the subject matter that you end up covering in T -- for instance, favoring diet and exercise goals over your very dysfunctional family. I don't think that's your fault. But I do think that avoiding talking about some of the feelings that are bothering you the most... this is really not what T is for.

Well, I'm afraid it's an imperfect analogy on a number of levels -- complicated even more by the fact that the person I had an affair with was in a mentoring position, making me more like the patient in this situation. However, to go further, what I mean is more that there are people out there (I know because my mom made it clear she was one of them, and she wonders why I don't talk to her about personal stuff) who believe that once a cheater always a cheater, and that for a spouse to forgive a cheater is tantamount to saying that it's ok.

I don't think anyone's saying that what otherT did was ok. I think it was really, really bad. If this thread is all about agreeing that what otherT did was really, really bad, I think we're good here. Not really sure if it would be different if there were different genders involved... I can only say it probably wouldn't make much of a difference for me.

I'm just pointing out that is a pretty big leap from T dating otherT, to T thinking it's ok. We also really don't know what she said about it, just what it "seemed like" she was saying. I *do* think it's perfectly acceptable to be so uncomfortable with the whole thing as to feel like it's not going to work out. But I think you really do have to acknowledge that it's possible that the situation could have been worked through, it just wasn't something you wanted to do. It's fine if you don't want to. It's not fine to blame to T for making a decision you don't agree with, and refusing to discuss it with her and just assuming that it shows she has bad judgment. That assumption could be correct, but it would be quite sad if it wasn't.

Sally makes so many good points in this post-- I really encourage you to read it, digest it, reflect on it. Because it seems like you are reacting to this situation rather than intentionally focusing on yourself and your feelings. You're quite busy focusing on how terrible your T's partner is (and maybe she is, I'm not denying it, but I think that how a person moves forward after a mistake says a lot more about them than the mistakes they make) and avoiding examining what's underneath all these feelings you have-- and what they say about you.

Are you really comfortable with how judgmental you are in this situation, and might this be an opportunity to let go of some of the desire to judge others? I have many strong instincts to be judgmental, and in fact I'm quite judgmental about people who are judgmental, so please forgive my two-facedness in even writing this post.

I'm a big believer in telling people when they've wronged you-- but that's not judging, in my opinion. I'm also not talking about endorsing or "enabling" other people's dysfunctional behavior. I'm not taking about taking a political stance on whether T's should be incarcerated if they have sexual relationships with clients. Not judging. I don't see any of these things at issue in this situation.

But judging your T's judgment for who's she's dating? Your thinking just seems distorted and dysfunctional to me, the focus on her, rather than on yourself as the person engaging in this judging. One thing I think I have learned, is that some kinds of judgment are poison for interpersonal relationships. I really can't say what I would do in your shoes, but I value my relationship with my T too much to throw it away over this thing, whatever it is. Even if she had had an affair with a client, I wouldn't dump her.

You might consider what it feels like to be on the other side of this judging. I don't know what your community is like, but my gay and lesbian friends all have pretty horrible stories about people judging them for their sexual behavior. Judging someone has an impact on how the other person, and it also has an impact on the quality of your interpersonal relationships. One of the best things I've ever done for my marriage and my friendships is to let go of as much of my judgment as possible, although it is always a work in progress. My wife feels more supported, my friendships are deeper and closer, my parenting is a whole lot less conflicted and distant. Perhaps a side benefit of this is that I have learned that it is not required that my wife, my children, or my friends think about (and judge) everything the same as I do. Part of your unhappiness with what you perceive your T as doing, it seems to me, is that she doesn't condemn her partner in the same way that you do. Two people who care about each other don't have to see everything eye-to-eye. When you love someone, you allow them to be different than you, to think differently than you, to do differently from you.

Judging seems to sometimes be about having poor boundaries. Judging is inserting your opinion into someone's life where it doesn't belong, and judging the other person's opinion as wrong. Judging is an intrusion into the private space of another person and most of all, by focusing on your T's private life and especially in her choice of a partner, feels like stomping over pretty much every boundary there should be between client and T. I'm not saying it is wrong to talk about it-- especially if you focus on your feelings rather than how bad her partner is or how bad she is for being supportive of her partner-- but I think you might also consider whether your judging here is really the way to go, or if it's time to change.

I think you are misremembering my previous thread. My T did make comments about diet/eating/weight, but it never turned out that I heard her incorrectly or misinterpreted what she said. I told her how her comments affected me, we discussed it, and she agreed not to say things in the future like "oh good, if you're not eating, then you'll lose weight!" But there was no misunderstanding what she meant. I don't think she intended to encourage me towards disordered eating, but I didn't misinterpret what she said. She simply didn't think that those comments were a big deal, or that they would affect me. However, given my history of receiving derogatory comments about my weight from my family growing up, she had the information to know that it would affect me. However, my T and I talked through the issue and we moved on. Now, I don't address weight/eating with my T, because I find her approach unhelpful. I manage that stuff on my own now and I'm doing fine in that respect.

My T did not call the woman who told me the information a "predator" nor did she call her partner a "victim." Those are my interpretations, but they are grounded in things she said. My T said "It's such a shame that woman felt the need to spread a rumor about Partner (P). I feel very protective of P, whenever I hear those things being said about her. It's unfortunate that people are still talking about that. I wish they would mind their own business. P is going to be getting her license back in a few months anyway. It's not that big a deal." Personally, I find that to be a dismissive and minimizing response. T may very well feel that her partner was wrong, but in that moment, it was my observation that her anger was directed at the woman who had told me the information and that she was defending her partner. I have no issue with T defending her partner in her private life. However, I was trying to talk to my T about my feelings and my safety with her, as this situation was connected to ethics and boundaries in therapy. Perhaps I should have been more vocal about what I was looking for from my T, but what I (thought) I made clear to her was that I wanted her to reassure me that SHE has good boundaries and that I am safe in therapy with her. I would not want to be in the situation where my T did something similar with a client, and then I could no longer go back to my T because she lost her license. It's not that I think my T would do that-- but I still wanted reassurance from T. I wanted to be certain that my T does not condone or exhibit that same kind of behavior in own practice.

I also wanted T to try and empathize with my feelings, and to try and see the situation from my perspective in order to understand me. I suppose I wanted T to put her own feelings about her partner aside just for the fifteen minutes she was talking to me about it, and put her attention on how I felt about the situation. By saying that she felt protective of her partner, it made it harder for me to tell T my own feelings. Of course, it was my choice whether I wanted to keep talking about my feelings or not. But, after hearing T say she was protective of her partner, it FELT to me like if I continued sharing my negative feelings about the situation, that it would pit me against T/T's partner. I felt T's empathy was with her partner, and not me. In her private life, that's fine-- her empathy should be with her partner. But in that discussion, I wanted T to try and put her own feelings aside in order to delve into my feelings. I wasn't able to articulate that in the moment because it happened so fast. I often don't know how I feel about something or why I react the way I do until I've had time to think about it after the fact. Now I know that's how I felt and what I wanted but, in the moment, I hadn't fully processed that yet. I just had a gut reaction.

I really don't understand how I'm being as judgmental as you appear to think I am. I AM focusing on my feelings and I'm focusing on how the feelings I have are affecting my therapy and my relationship with my T. I can't simply choose to make my feelings go away. If I could, I would. I have no intention of leaving my T, as I stated from the beginning. I value my T very much and I want to continue working with her. However, pushing my feelings aside and ignoring them seems counter-productive. I don't understand where you draw the distinction between having feelings and judging. I have a gut level "yuck" feeling to the information I heard. How do I decide to change that feeling? If I could get rid of it, I would. But making a conscious choice to feel differently simply doesn't work. Ignoring it doesn't work either. So, what choice do I have? I can ignore it, or I can talk to my T about it. Is talking to my T about it invading her boundaries? You say that I'm trampling over her boundaries, so are you suggesting that I don't talk to my T? My concern, from the beginning, has been damaging my relationship with my T. I value my relationship with her too much to want to damage it. But I feel that her choice of partner may reflect on her own professional judgment and boundaries. I don't see how feeling that way is judging her. If she were dating a professor who had slept with a student, that would not affect me because it would have no bearing on her professional judgment as a therapist. The only reason this is a problem for me is because she's a therapist, and this is a therapy violation.

Another piece that may be relevant here is that, while I've never had a T cross that boundary with me, I have been in other relationships where a woman in a position of authority over me did cross that boundary with me. I was 18 and I consented. It was legal. However, it was very damaging to me. My T knows this, as it was something I've talked about in therapy, at length. In my situation, I was in love with the older woman in an authority position, she initiated sexual contact with me, and I thought we were entering into a relationship-- I thought this was going somewhere. She was my first love. However, it turned out that she was also sleeping with a man (without telling me), and she ended up entering into a relationship with him instead of me. She never took responsibility for the situation, never felt as though she had wronged me, never apologized, and never felt what she did was unethical. In fact, she blamed me for being "clingy" and "too emotional." Clearly, this is a different situation. There was an age difference in my case, and she was not my therapist. However, my situation here-- as the person in the non-authority position-- and my situation as a therapy client-- both align me, emotionally, with the "other" side. So, when I hear about what T's partner did, I think about what has been done to me in the past. Perhaps that is not fair to T's partner, but that is how I feel. And feelings just "are." We don't have control over our feelings. So, even though I do not know the situation or the circumstances, I FEEL empathy for the female client who entered into a relationship with T's partner and was then shortly dumped by T's partner. Since I am never going to know the specifics of the situation, I probably put my own life experiences into play and imagine how I would feel in a similar situation. And, because I know how damaging it was for me to be in an unequal relationship with an authority figure, it is hard for me to imagine that it would not also be damaging to someone else. I also think of my friends on PC who have been in those relationships with their T, and I think about how damaging it was for them. Since I have no connection to Ts partner, my empathy here is activated very strongly for those I do know, who have been in similar situations. My feelings are really less about judging T's partner as an individual, and feeling empathy on the reverse side... and then probably also some associated anger, partially at the actual people who hurt friends of mine and at Ts partner who I imagine hurt her client. Perhaps there is also judgment mixed in with my feelings, but my feelings are driving my reaction.

I haven't decided NOT to talk to about this. After all, I did bring this up and tell T what I heard during my last session and, in the moment, I felt as though I said everything I needed to say. It was only after I got home and started processing my session that all of this extra stuff came up. And, like I said, if this is still bothering me next week, I'll bring it up with my T again. I have no interest in keeping anything from my T. However, I am thinking a lot about how what I say-- and how I say it-- will impact my relationship with my T. I do not want to violate her privacy, nor do I want to say anything directly about her partner as a person. I want to talk about my feelings, and (if applicable) what relationship my feelings have to anything else in my life that I'm working on in therapy. That is something I'm still trying to figure out. I do not think this is a simple issue about passing judgment. I also am not convinced (though open to the possibility) that this could have something to do with my family. It may be the case that I am protective of my T's feelings and my relationship, the same way I am protective of my family's feelings and afraid to "rock the boat" there because I view my relationship with them as fragile. But, beyond that, I don't know if there is any deeper connection to my family. Or, perhaps, being afraid to "rock the boat" or fearing that my relationship is fragile is the problem. I'm not entirely sure. I don't know where to draw the line between discussing my feelings and invading T's privacy, and that is what is making this difficult for me.

Gee that sounds like your T thinks "that woman" made it all up- spread a rumour about her P...

I read your previous posts, commented few times, then stopped cause as much as I like you I just don't like your T at all thus I felt like I couldn't offer anything you'd find helpful (still reading them, though). So let me just say here (before I vanish again) that I totally understand your "feeling for the victim" (I do to), I don't find your posts judgemental and I do think your T should be more empathetic to you- it's not her P vs. you. It's still your therapy and a good T should be able to see this

It seems to me like you are really learning from every iteration of the issue people are offering here, and are not particularly wedded to defending a certain belief. So kudos to you in handling this issue and thank you for sharing your journey with us, and thank you to everybody else too for their contributions.

I've found it really helpful reading your posts. It's a good model for me. You seem to be able to stay focused on your issues, and have clarity about what is yours to care about, and what isn't, and not get defensive about what you are thinking and feeling and wanting. thanks for sharing your journey. it's been good for me. I like how you determined the different threads and issues. I hope I would think about things the way you have if/when I'm in that position. By that, I don't mean that I hope I think about things the way you do (for the most part I do, but not completely, and that's to be expected). I mean, I think how you were able to think about it and figure out the core issue for you, and your feelings, and separate it from judgments which can cloud the issues (and I do too easily), and listen to others and know that you knew what was in you more than they did, and be clear with yourself about what you do know about yourself, and what you are still unclear about in a way that is focused and productive, not diffuse.
Thanks for sharing your journey.

Scorpiosis - I am very very impressed how you're processing this. You have a clarity about the issue at hand. Yes,it's important that your T hears your feelings and I hope she doesn't try to explain or defend herself or her relationship.

Byron Katie says that 'defense is the first act of war'. I find this an intriguing concept myself and am trying to apply that thinking to my own life whenever I'm tempted to defend myself. I've found by personal experience that LISTENING and trying to understand the other person's point of view, the other person's feelings brings us much closer to peace than an effort at 'defending'.

I had my session with my T today. I was very open and honest with her about my feelings, my need to feel safe in therapy with her, and how I was triggered into reflecting on a situation in which I was the subordinate person in an inappropriate sexual relationship with a woman who was in a position of authority over me. I also told my T that I was afraid telling her about my reaction might harm my relationship with her. My T said she appreciated my willingness to tell her all of these things, and that my doing so did not make her feel negatively towards me. She said it had never occurred to her that her partner's actions would reflect back on her, and she said that it "really sucked." She didn't direct her anger at me, but she was upset and defensive about how "people" associated her partner's actions with her just because they are now in a relationship. She said that SHE takes boundaries very seriously and that I can trust her boundaries and that I am safe with her. I appreciated that. However, she also described the situation with her partner and the client as an "unfortunate series of events" and didn't seem to take it very seriously. She kind of brushed that off. She never said it was "wrong"(or the action of a T sleeping with a client is wrong), nor did she say her partner (or any T in that situation) was "at fault" and should "take responsibility" for what happened. I understand that it probably isn't T's business to tell me those things-- but it would have helped me feel safe with MY T in MY therapy if she had said SHE thought it was always wrong for a T to sleep with a client. It would have helped assure me that SHE has good judgment herself, as a therapist. I could tell she was holding back some of her reaction and not saying very much. She was visibly upset and her body language was really stiff and she seemed very guarded. She was not open or gentle. She kept repeating how unfortunate it was that she was now being lumped in with her partner, and she kept saying she thought that was unfair. She said she was really surprised that people would question her boundaries based on her partner's actions. It made me feel a bit taken aback. It prevented me from being able to connect with her or feel close to her. I felt like the "bad guy" for saying I was struggling with that association, and it was causing me to be triggered about my history of having my boundaries violated by a woman in an authority position. I didn't feel a lot of compassion coming from her when I told her about how badly I'd been triggered, and about how I was coming to understand now just how much my own situation affected me-- and still does. She did not say anything reassuring, even after I told her that I wanted to know that she believes what happened to me was a boundary violation and ethically wrong. She just didn't respond to that. Time was up, and she just kind of left things as they were, without taking any time to ground me or make sure I was okay before I left. The whole thing just made me feel like we were on opposite sides, even though I don't think there are "sides" here.

I suppose my gut reaction is that I feel disappointed and I feel as though the situation is still unresolved. We also literally ran out of time-- it took me until 30 minutes in to bring up the issue (there was something about my own life I HAD to bring up first)-- and then I told T about my reaction and my associations-- and then she began responding and then time was up. I think we will probably come back to it briefly at the beginning of my next session. However, I could just feel her defensiveness and it made me not want to delve into it further. I suppose it would be stepping over her boundaries to ask if she thinks what her partner did was wrong (or if she thinks it's always wrong for any T to have a relationship with any client) -- but I think it will be hard for me to trust her own boundaries and judgment without knowing that. It seems like she is trying to justify her partner's actions, and that makes me uncomfortable and that makes me feel unsafe. Yes, she told me she has good boundaries-- but how do I trust her judgment on what "good boundaries" are? I still have questions about that. I want so badly to resolve this with her, to trust her, to feel safe with her, and to feel connected to her. I'm very invested in my therapy with her, and in her as my therapist. I know I'm very attached, perhaps even to the point of overlooking some "red flags" from time to time. I'm still not interested in changing therapists. But I'm disappointed in how she handled things today. Luckily, I do have another session coming up before the holidays-- so I hope that we can resolve things then. I hope that giving her a little time to process what I said today will make her come back a little more gently. But I'm concerned. I'm concerned that she is defensive and she is putting a wall up. I'm concerned that she's allowing her protectiveness for her partner to get in the way of her relationship with me. I'm not sure what to do with my feelings about this-- especially if things do not become any more resolved during my next session. I'm very afraid that this could damage my relationship with her. I don't know how much I can expect T to put her own feelings aside and be there for me, when it comes to a situation like this. I think she's responding like a human, rather than as a T. And, quite frankly, I don't blame her for that. However, I also need her to respond like a T and to be attentive to my feelings. I don't think I should have to feel like I'm walking on eggshells around her feelings. She also didn't ask me to do that for her-- but she was defensive, and it made me FEEL like I had to worry about her feelings. I felt a lot of hostility from her. I felt like I connected up to how she felt, but I don't think she connected up to how I felt. If she did, she certainly didn't demonstrate that with her words or her body language. I began the session by talking about something important that had happened in my RL a few days ago which caused me to feel very unheard/unseen-- and the way T handled this discussion caused me to feel the same way all over again.

ETA: T also told me that she knows all the details of exactly what happened with the partner and the client, which suggests to me (as another pointed out) that it seems the partner also violated her client's confidentiality. My T also told me that she talked to her partner about what I told her last week, which makes me wonder what else my T said to her partner about me. Did my T violate my confidentiality? I don't want her partner to know everything I've said about this; that would make me very uncomfortable.

I'd imagine that if you said pretty much exactly what you posted above, that it could shorten the amount of time/work it takes to get to a resolution. It seems that you want to hear very specific things - let her know

I think what you said about giving her some time to reflect on this is important. This probably came out of nowhere and caught her off-guard. Hopefully in your next session she will have regrouped and gathered her thoughts about this so that you can have some resolution. Try not to think too far ahead. This isn't a topic that can be resolved in 30 minutes as you know. In fact, 30 minutes probably isn't enough time to really introduce the topic well. Wait for the next session and see how it goes. It may even take more sessions than that to work through this.

I already told her exactly what I wanted to hear; she just didn't say it. In session today, I shared a few paragraphs I'd written, which I pieced together from my earlier posts in this thread. She didn't really respond to what I wrote at all. She just said the things I mentioned above. Rather than really focusing in on me, my concerns, or what I needed to hear, she talked mostly about how she's upset that people associate her partner's actions with her. Of course, I can tell her precisely that next session. I can tell her that she did not respond to my concerns or my need for reassurance, and reiterate what I would like to know and see if she will address that.

I'm just feeling disappointed and disconnected right now. It's hard to feel "right with the world" when it feels as though there's been a disconnect from T.

Yeah. She knew what I heard about her & her partner because I told her that last week, but she didn't realize it was still affecting me. She hadn't made the connections to my life or my relationship with her. She didn't realize that I would feel uncomfortable about an association between her partner's boundaries and her own, nor did she think I would make an association to the relationship I had, where my boundaries were violated by having a sexual relationship with a woman in an authority position. While I don't necessarily think these are big leaps to make, I understand that she wasn't prepared for me to tell her that I was having a strong reaction to what I brought up last week. Hopefully taking some time to process this herself will make her come back a little more open and little more attuned to what I need in order to move past this.

I definitely think that was some massive realisations she had today and she probably does need some processing time. This might be an issue that is going to need to be teased out over a few weeks. Given her shock at how it had affected you i think she reacted quite well. Also i think the fact that she's dismayed that she is "lumped in" with what her partner did, shows that she doesn't think it was right, it's not something she would do and doesn't want to be associated with it all. If she didn't think her partner had done anything wrong she wouldn't be defensive about it or her body language wouldn't have been the way it was. THat's a good sign to me.

Her defensiveness really bothers me and her lack of attunement to your feelings also really bothers me. I don't blame you for feeling unsettled and unsafe. It seems she forgot some basics of how therapy works.

As for the confidentiality issue, if she doesn't know her partner's client, and her partner doens't know you, it's okay to talk about it. I imagine they didn't use names. And Ts are allowed to consult with other Ts for help and supervision.

As for the rest of what you wrote, you articulate it so well. I believe you she was defensive while at the same time not wanting to make you feel badly, and her response was "off."

Okay you know i dabbled in this area a few years ago, and found out my gf lived with her t (before i met her). I have been doing some googling to refresh my memory on the literature. I would think your t would be more surprised at your "patriarchal" attitude? i rather thought the old rules didnt apply here, and that was the point. Here being feminist-lesbian perspective. You keep wanting to be seen as a victim of this other older woman, rather than that you both had a choice. Who did you want to put a stop to it? Some man? Your daddy? So it looks like you're acting out keeping asking where is your dad / savior in your relationship with these women - ie your mother who hurt you?

I am struck by how little thought and processing she appears to have put into the whole thing. Let's say you accept that fact that your partner isn't perfect and (quite recently) made a mistake that brought her personal and professional ethics into serious question. I think it behooves you to do a lot of thinking and talking about this alone and together. So that when you encounter questions, judgement and difficult feelings about this issue, you are not all triggered and defensive but can respond from a place of calm and confidence.

It really sounds like your t isn't in that place and that is worrisome because she's defensive and reactive about issues that are pretty central to your relationship with her: boundaries, trust, power, managing transference and countertransference in the therapeutic relationship.

I think it's concerning that she wouldn't say what you told her you needed to hear from her. Again, you weren't asking for some woo-woo out there magic incantations--just basic reassurance that she believes professional boundaries are important.

Oh and Hankster maybe I was sick that day but I missed the part of lesbian-feminist theory where they say it's cool for therapists to sleep with their clients as long as everyone's a lesbian/feminist! My read is that we are always, always, always cognizant of differentials in power and privilege in our sexual ethics and everywhere else.