Found Out Something Disturbing About T

Hey dont shoot the messenger! And that wasnt even the trenchant point of my post. I only offered it as a recognized cultural explanation of the errant ts' attitudes - see Laura Brown.

That sounds really judgemental. I don't know scorpios' past, and I'm not sure that she's posted much about it aside from the fact that it was a relationship with an older woman who was in a position of authority. I haven't at least read any post from S saying that she wanted someone to come and rescue her. And yes, she IS a victim and should be considered as such until she goes "I really wanted to be in that relationship!". Maybe she didn't. Maybe she ended up in that situation because she thought if she didn't something negative would happen. That is how things work sometimes when there is someone in a position of authority. While technically there is always a "choice" to get involved in a relationship, sometimes for the person who is not in the position of power the choice is really "do I take part in this to keep them happy, or do I suffer the consequences of turning them down?" Which isn't really a choice.

Bang!

Okay, I'll check out Laura Brown. It's been a while since I read much feminist theory! Maybe I'm spouting all the old skool stuff.

Maybe persons without feminist and lesbian experience shouldnt judge feminist-lesbian posts? I am talking from experience, not feelings or thoughts or opinions or theory. But i'll bow out of the discussion here until scorpio returns, if she wants me to. People are clearly not understanding me and i dont mean to judge anyone.

Favorite Jeans, I couldn't agree more. The issue here isn't why Scorpio was triggered by this situation involving her T. That is hers to deal with. The relationship to this T is what is the central issue. I agree that I am astonished that she is surprised that her partner's ethical lapse reflects upon her, and that she has not seen fit to think this matter through more extensively. Frankly, that makes me doubt her skills as a T and just her overall level of intelligence psychologically.

The defensiveness is a reflection of that lack of working through. Scorpio, it may come to a point where you'll need to consider whether the attachment you feel to her is worth the persistent doubts. Is it fundamentally a healthy attachment? I think that's a really difficult question to assess.

That is only 1/2 of the equation. You're failing to acknowledge the fact that it was involving one person being in a position of authority over the other.

As a teacher - that's obviously where my perspective comes in. A teacher I worked with a few years ago is currently in jail because he abused the fact that he is in a position of power. The girl he was in a relationship with? Is still in a relationship with him (or at least was the last I heard). He's in jail. Because he was in a position of authority and he took advantage of that. And then there's the age difference and whatnot which is also a huge factor. It's why he is in that position of power over her.

If I was teaching in a highschool and there was a student there who was adult - so age 18 or over. There's a lot of them at the highschool in my city. If I was to get involved with one of them - male or female, I would lose my job. Because I am in a position of authority over them. They would be a victim, even if they initiated the relationship. Because it would be my responsibility to say that it was inappropriate.

Where did you get the idea that I have any kind of a "patriarchal" attitude? I'm a professor of gender & sexuality studies and no lesbian-feminist theory I have ever read, written, or taught argues that therapists, professors, or nannies should sleep with their clients, students, or charges. Since you seem to take issue with the fact that I see myself as a "victim," let me explain my situation. I was in high school, I was 17 (and then turned 18), and the woman in question was our family's live-in nanny. I was in the closet, I was a virgin, I had never had a girlfriend, and I thought I was in love with the nanny. She was my confidante and the person I thought I was closest to in the world. I told her every minute detail of my life, and I told her constantly how beautiful, smart, wise, and incredible I thought she was. She told me she thought I was special, too. I never thought it was even a possibility that she might like me in return-- I thought she was going to be just like every other straight woman I loved from afar. But.... then she kissed me! And then we started making out and fooling around whenever my dad and my sister weren't home. We also continued to stay up late at night having philosophical conversations about life, love, happiness, spirituality-- everything that I thought mattered. I thought this was all leading to a relationship. I thought she was in love with me. Then, she invited me to go on a retreat with her. I thought this was going to be our first outing as a "couple." Well, I showed up with her and guess what? She introduced me to her boyfriend!!!! In all of those 9 months of living with my family and having those late night conversations, she NEVER said one word about having a boyfriend. I was absolutely heartbroken, and I couldn't even tell anyone because that would have meant putting her at risk. After all, I'm pretty sure it was against the nanny agency's rules to sleep with one of the "kids" you are nannying for, even if that "kid" is 17 or 18. So, yes, I suppose I do feel like I am the victim in this situation. It feels like a knife is stabbing through my heart every time I think of the fact that I wasted my "first time" and my first "I love you" on the nanny who didn't love me back and ended up having a boyfriend. I had no ability, as a 17/18 year old to understand what I was getting myself into... or the fact that I had to continue to live under the same roof as this woman (and eventually her boyfriend!) for another 6 months. Clearly, I do not think this situation is identical to the one with my therapist's partner and her client. However, I think it does make sense that situation would trigger me into thinking about this situation from my own life. No, I certainly would NOT have wanted my dad to intervene in this situation on ANY level. THANK GOD my dad and my sister never found about this!!! However, I do wish that the nanny herself would have never gone there. I wish she would have been respectful enough not to abuse her position of authority in order to get her desire for female attention met by me, while she knew she did not return the depth of my feelings. That situation seriously ****ed me up, and made me think that women, in general, would only view me as someone to be used sexually and never someone to be loved. It was very hard for me to change my thinking in that area, and it caused me a lot of problems in future relationships. Because she was my nanny and because she lived with us and because I was still in high school, I simply didn't have the ability to "see through the trees" so to speak. I wish she had.

She actually does know the partner's client. She knew them as a couple. She was friends with her now partner during the time the partner was with the client. So, some of what she knows I suppose she learned first-hand from the client. However, when she began dating her partner, her partner told her "her side" of the whole story and how things unfolded.

I'm sure my T did not use my name when speaking to her partner about this, but if she told her partner ANYTHING about my therapy, my feelings, or how it triggered me, I would feel that my confidentiality had been violated. My T has her own T/supervisor who she can talk to about clients, if she is having an issue with countertransference or if she wants to know how to best help her clients, etc. I do not think it would be appropriate to come home and tell her partner anything about me (or my feelings about this situation), aside from saying "a client of mine heard this" and then moving on to talk about her own feelings/issues with no further mention of me.

Moreover, her partner is not currently a T. Shouldn't having her license suspended also disqualify her from being a colleague my T can talk to about clients? Shouldn't she be treated just like any other partner? For instance, my friend who is a T does NOT talk about clients in any way to his partner. He considers that unethical. He may say "a client recommended I see this film. Want to go see it tonight?" But he does not discuss anything about the client's issues, even without using a name. He has a supervisor for that and keeps that separate from his marriage.

I take it back. I wasn't thinking very clearly. I agree if the client was known to the T's partner, then the T shouldn't be a consultant. I assumed that wasn't true. However, I no excuse for my next big mistake. - if the issue you are discussing is related in any way to her partner, then the partner should be an unethical choice to consult with also, even if she is licensed, and I think loosing the license would probably negate the role of consultant.
I was really off base with this one. I don't have a good reason either. I'm sorry.

Well, 1, i was referring to your long term relationship with the older woman. I thought you were too. And in that case, who would you want to stop you? That is what i see as patriarchal - that someone else would decide if it was okay for you and your partner to be together. The situation with the nanny was obviously problematic and it is likely she also was abused, but there are laws for that.

I disagree that the point is the principle of the thing, the ethics of the matter. We are here to get our therapy done. I see your anger at your father re the nanny being played out here - he would have made things worse; it would have been out of your control; you had no one to rely on to help you. And now you seem to be in that situation again. I think thats why your t keeps saying its unfortunate. Perhaps shes been talking about you to her partner for the last year but you didnt know about it. Instead of judging her - do you feel you can talk to her about these things? This IS the therapy right now. Does she go deep enough? Can the two of you connect and trust each other? Is this the kind of close relationship you want to have? Screw all the rules, we're all adults here. Jmo.

I wish I understood where you are coming from with this, Hankster. It sounds as if your view of ethics is that it's just an inconvenient set of rules imposed from above (somewhere) that has no consequence for the really important stuff of therapy and why and how it all works.

If that's all it were to me, then I might think it could easily be dispensed with. But for me, it isn't an abstraction; it is crucial and inherent in the process. Ethics informs the process foundationally, and without ethics, therapy as process and as relationship falls apart.

I have never been in a long-term relationship with an older woman. I dated an older woman for a few months (my first real gf), but it was short-lived and she was never an authority figure. That relationship was positive and I have no regrets. In fact, I'm the one who ended that relationship, solely because I moved away. My only long-term relationship (5 1/2 years) was with a woman who was my own age. She was abusive, but it had nothing to do with with age/authority. I'm also the one who eventually ended that relationship. I have never wanted anyone to stop me or adjudicate over my personal relationships. I'm not sure where you are getting that from. I do think the nanny should have never allowed that relationship to happen, but I think my reasoning there is pretty obvious.

I am not and never have been angry with my father over the situation with this nanny. I have been angry with my father for other reasons, but it has never been connected to this nanny, to my sexuality or to my personal/romantic relationships. One of the good things about my dad is that he has never had an issue with me being a lesbian and has never tried to interfere in that part of my life. He has always supported me bringing my girlfriends home for Christmas, and even sent my partner (at the time) a card welcoming her to the family when we officially registered as domestic partners. I give him credit for that. My issues with my father are about the situation with my biological mom, the abuse I suffered from a totally different nanny when I was a small child (not sexual abuse), and the way he treats me and my sister differently. I don't really see a connection between any of this stuff with my T (or the nanny) and my father. They seem unrelated to me.

Just FYI the nanny was never abused herself. She had a very happy, loving childhood and I know her whole family. She is very close to her parents. She is sexually "free" because she is part of a hippie, spiritual community that believes in free love, and she thought she was practicing that with me. The problem is she forget to tell me that! I was not a part of that community and did not sign up for that kind of relationship.

I do think there are ethical boundaries that should never be crossed between T-client, student-teacher, etc. That's where we disagree. I think the power differential makes it impossible for the person in a subordinate position to give consent. There is too much transference, idolization, trust, desire to please, and vulnerability involved. It virtually always ends up being damaging. It's also against the ethics codes, in black and white, which we sign up for when we become members of these professions. I don't think it's a patriarchal issue at all. I think it's a safety issue to protect those who are vulnerable and at risk. To fail to recognize the power differential in these situations is like going out in the world at large and failing to recognize the power differential between a white, upper class, 60-year old male and an 18-year-old, poor woman of color. To say "they're both adults; they come to the table equally" is to ignore the real, structural inequalities at work. They're there. I think we need rules to protect people who don't understand transference and don't have the ability to consent. There is a 2 year waiting period in therapy. If it's true love, then it will last and the people will be there waiting for each other 2 years down the road. Then, they can ride off into the sunset if they both want to.

When you say "Can you talk to your T about these things?" what are you referring to? I am already talking to my T about this particular issue, and I have never held anything back from my T in the past. I really do talk to her about everything. Sometimes it takes me a week or two to process something before I bring it up to my T, but I always do in the end.

Does my T go deep enough? I don't know. I wish she asked more questions and dug a little deeper. I'm the one who has to push in order to get the conversation to hit a deeper level. She's a pretty hands-off therapist and will always follow my lead and allow me to drive the conversation. I wish she were a little more hands on, but I suspect any T will have their shortcomings. It's about weighing the pros and cons. So far, her pros outweigh her cons. That may change in the future.

I am a pretty big ethics person on a lot of things, but I think I agree with hankster on this one. I don't see it as a big deal in a vacuum. It appears to be a big deal to op, and as such, I can understand wanting to talk to the therapist about it. But I don't think the therapist's responses are particularly off in this situation.

Quote: "the power differential between a white, upper class, 60-year old male and an 18-year-old, poor woman of color."

I think the example ( power differential) would have be clearly understood without bringning color/race into the mix. Isn´t this 2013?

Sorry for the short hijack

I suspect Scorpio was speaking in an academic voice; in her field, it would be an appropriate description of a dynamic, with no offense intended.

I am sure no offence was intended. It´s just a shame these steoretype excamples still excist. Academic voice or not.

At least here, Ts can't go blabber on about their clients to their spouses (names/no names) even if their spouse is a licensed T. It's a thing to lose your license for. Your T can talk to her/his supervisor/team/Pdoc about your case only if you consent. (no, your spouse can't be your sup).
My Ts wife is a T too- so believe me I discussed this with my T ad nauseam

I think the T should be able to empathize with you and not put her own "hurts" into it (and discuss this without impinging on the other clients/her spouse rights). I know you like your T so maybe give her some time to "adapt"? Though you can't be the first one having a bone with it and is she really surprised this has an impact on her (BTW not sure how this is relevant in YOUR therapy)?

Not being a lesbian I doubt that my opinion matter on this one () but I do believe rules should apply no matter the gender. Sleeping with your client? Not OK and I don't care whether it's he/she (race, age, whatever included). No, I don't believe in we're all adults here so it's a game on- some clients mentally aren't adults (or they do regress) and the power differential is just too great here. There's a reason this is frowned upon almost everywhere (and illegal somewhere).

I was talking about our society's structural inequities. Race, class, gender, age, sexual orientation, religious affiliation-- they are all ways in which we are differently positioned and, as a result, have a different relationship to power. Yes, it's 2013 and, unfortunately, the institutions which make up our social and political world do not treat us all equally or give us equal access to opportunities, resources, and cultural capital. These things have a very real impact on our lives. I hear similar comments frequently from my Cultural & Gender Studies students who say "It's 2013. Men and women are equal now. Can't we leave gender out of it?" Our society is not gender or color blind. To pretend that it is, is to do a great disservice to those of us who face the consequences of these structural inequalities every day and have to work twice as hard as a result. We also still live in the world of affirmative action, which means we recognize the structural inequalities at work and are trying to find tangible ways to offset them.

Perhaps the example is a little overkill, but I was trying to emphasize the fact that there IS a power differential in therapy that must be taken into account-- just like there are power differntials that exist in society. I don't think we can simply ignore these or pretend they do not exist. The client and the T-- or the student and the professor-- can never meet on equal ground, with the same amount of power. It just isn't possible. How can you enter into a romantic relationship (which is supposed to be mutual, collaborative, equal) when there is such a huge difference of power. I don't think it's possible. I am not saying that the two people are not equals in terms of intelligence, dignity, value, positive qualities, or what they have to offer as people or as romantic partners. I'm saying that the artificial relationship they have been placed in with respect to one another has created a power differential that prevents them from meeting on equal or neutral footing. Most of the time, that's a recipe for disaster when trying to create a healthy and companionate partnership.

Well, generalizations have their place when discussing hypotheticals in which the characteristics stated are germane to the topic. If the characteristics were irrelevant, then I would agree with you.

Since it's Scorpio's thread, I doubt she will see our posts as a hijack.

ETA: posted at the same time!

In fact, couldn't agree more

I acknowledge that society is not gender or color blind. I just don´t see a need to keep the stereotypes alive ( white wealthy man and poor woman of color) . To be honest I found your excample filled with prejudice, academic voice or not and not relevant for the topic otherwise discussed in this thread. Again just my personal opinion and I know you didn´t mean to offend anyone. Now back to what this thread is about. You getting the support you´re looking for.

I am sorry for what you're going through and what you've been through. If I were in your position I would be really upset and confused. I'm not sure what I would do or say. It does really bother me that she doesn't seem to understand why her ethics would be questioned in such a situation.

I'm confused about how the ethics question applies to the therapist who didn't sleep with any of her clients. Just to take an analogy with the student-teacher example. First of all, we all know this happens pretty often and not necessarily in a predatory way. I do think there is difference with therapy but I'm using it as hopefully a clarifying example.

I am with someone who is a professor and has slept with students before. I know all of them and none regret it or feel hurt by it. When I became a professor myself, I decided in no way was I ever going to even get personally involved with a student. And that boundary was challenged by some, but I held it tight.

So how would my ethics be compromised just because someone I fell in love with broke a rule that I myself have upheld?

I do not believe that my example keeps the stereotypes alive. I believe it is only by interrogating the real inequalities that exist, and are continually being perpetuated, that we can develop the tools we need to change them. That is why I entered my field in the first place-- because I am dedicated both personally and professionally to changing these racial, gender, sexual, and class inequalities. If we don't talk about the political, social, cultural, and ideological forces that are producing the real people behind these generalizations, then we can never improve the lot in life that so many real people are dealt. Avoiding any mention of stereotypes isn't going to change society and isn't going to make anyone's real life any better. I can watch a TV show where they have avoided stereotyping the characters-- a black president, a female senator, a poor white fugitive, a gay male cop-- but I haven't changed the lives of the real people, sitting at home, watching that TV show. I've avoided stereotypes and possibly given someone a good character for a role model, but I haven't changed the real world that we're going to walk out into-- where we will face real discrimination and real barriers to climbing the corporate ladder, providing for our families, getting equal access to opportunities like education, internships, and so forth. My personal investment is in exposing all of these inequalities in order to change them. That's why I'm in my field and why I spend my personal time volunteering in outreach programs and doing political organizing. If you think my example drips with prejudice, that's a little hard to hear since I spent my afternoon today with the little girl I mentor at an event designed to empower young inner city girls to get on the college path. Maybe that paints me as the stereotypical white, middle-class woman reaching out to (mostly) low-income girls of color-- but the little girl I mentor comes from a family where her guardians are illiterate and no one in her family has graduated from high school. She doesn't think she will either. If it weren't for recognizing what is behind the stereotypes-- and finding ways to address them and change them (like the program she's in)-- then I don't think the situation will ever change. Programs like the one I took her to today also put pressure on the school district to recognize the inequalities in education, even among their students. Other kids in her class have parents who can help them with their homework, teach them how to read with bedtime stories, and guide their educational path. My kid doesn't. (In fact, my kid's "homework"was to have her read a story out loud with her parents. She does not live with either parent and neither of her guardians can read. She called me because she needed someone to do her homework with. It's that kind of ignorance on her teacher's part we're trying to address on an institutional level). So, my kid needs additional programs and resources and people to tell her that she can grow up to be anything she wants to be. I can avoid talking about stereotypes, but how can I help my kid without addressing some of the realities of her life? To her, they don't feel like stereotypes. They're the only thing she knows. Hopefully, that will change.

I can only speak for myself, but I think a professor and a therapist are totally different. I wouldn't question your ethics. I can't even really explain why it bothers me so much a therapist would be with another therapist who abused her position of power. The therapy relationship is so different from a professor/student relationship. To me anyway. I'm sorry I can't explain it very well.