Found Out Something Disturbing About T

Not all people of color need help or have a lower status in society, quite the opposite in some cases. Thats basically my point and why I found the example to be stereotypical.

Thats why i say dont shoot the messenger! My (long ago, short term) gf didnt even tell me about her rl with her female t, i think because she knew i would question it. It would ruin her perfect facade, her control. Those arent my ethics. But i understand the "community's" ethics as scorpio's t sees them, which is, as laura brown put it, a woman t hugging is nurturing; a male t hugging is predatory - thats not how i see it. safety does not depend on gender.

There is a lesbian subculture - i didnt make it up, and i didnt make the rules! They dont even like me there! Well, no wonder. I keep raising my eyebrow - involuntarily, but there it is. But i do the same around straight people, too. Please stop shocking my tender emotions, everyone!

This is just a description of societal constructs, not a statement that one race or class is smarter or more sophisticated than another. In sociological terms yes, there is still a (big) power differential.

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I got it On an intellectual level. Still don´t understand the need to bring color into this discussion, but that´s my personal issue.

Your T does seem kind of shockingly clueless... it seems like there are a lot of misunderstandings that stem from her not being able to relate to where you're coming from. Which is kind of her job.

You mentioned on my last comment that it wasn't the case that she had previously said something and you heard something else -- but I could have sworn you said she made it seem like having a partner would solve all your problems and you should be dating now, when in fact what she was saying was she wished you had a partner to help you out. I think it's still a weird thing to say, but it was definitely a misunderstanding. I guess, unless you think she was being untruthful about her actual meaning, and the meaning you gleaned the first time was the real meaning. Or, as you say, I'm misremembering.

Either way there are a lot of issues here, and originally I wasn't going to comment anymore because I didn't feel like I had anything to add. I have a hard time getting a sense of what actually passes between you and your T, so I end up feeling stuck and uncertain.

But this last part -- which I just say this morning -- is really messed up on a number of levels. It's another data point that tells me she has problems with the way she sees her role as a T. Even if she only spoke about you in vague terms, it bothers me that she'd mention it to her partner, and then tell you she'd mentioned it to her partner, and expect all of this to work out.

I hear ya! I think that it's high time we started embracing a more nuanced analysis of gender and the politics of privilege in general. I seriously take exception to the notion that having a consciousness of race, class, gender (&c) is merely perpetuating "stereotypes" (rather than explaining deep truths about oppression and how our society is organized) but equally offensive to me is the notion that all manner of behaviour is acceptable because abuse doesn't happen between women or in lesbian relationships. The whole idealization of lesbian relationships really serves to silence those of us who have experienced abuse by women partners or women authority figures. I can't stand that kind of crap! (And like you Hankster it's why I spend limited time in that kind of community.)

I bet all of this is at play between Scorpio and her T and explains some of why T is able to see her partner's relationship with a client as anything but appalling and frankly abhorrent.

Okay a few things: just because someone has slept with their professor and doesn't feel that they have been scarred by it doesn't make it cool for professors to sleep with students. It's an abuse of power and is messed up pure and simple. That said, it doesn't make every professor who has ever slept with a student a totally abhorrent write-off of a person. People are complex and we are not simply reducible to the bad things we've done. But the fact that you and I may love people who have violated this boundary (in my case it's my brother, not my partner) doesn't make it not such a bad thing to have done.

Scorpio's T's partner is probably a complex person with many lovely qualities. And if Scorpio's T decides that she loves this woman despite this transgression that's certainly her prerogative. BUT if she decides that a T having a romantic relationship with a client is anything but completely reprehensible because she loves a T who crossed that line, well that IS troubling!

And because Scorpio's T is a therapist herself, I don't think it's that big a stretch to question her commitment to maintaining safe boundaries and wondering about her professional ethics. Add to that her refusal to reiterate for Scorpio that she affirms the need to keep the relationship safe and the boundaries firm, even after having been explicitly asked to do that, and we have a big problem.

I don't find it unusual or abhorrent that a person, even a therapist person, might rethink reprehension when they are in a situation to see various sides of it. I do think it is a stretch to question the ethics of one person based on the actions of another. I do not see this situation as a big problem. A client asked for something and the therapist did not comply. That happens all the time and there are various reasons for it.

Yes, I think this is it exactly. The OP's T has not engaged in any unethical behavior. Last time I checked, being in a relationship with someone didn't mean that I endorsed the behavior of my partner, nor does it mean that I am more likely to engage in the kind of unethical behavior my partner did. I know someone who teaches in a university, whose husband was fired from the same department for stealing university funds. Because she's an assistant professor, her department chair had the university counsel come over and explain to the faculty (there had been lots of gossip, as you could imagine) that if there were any discussions about him that were imputed to her regarding her tenure, they would have a giant lawsuit on their hands. Perhaps it would surprise some people, but a number of the professors thought she should be fired for being married to him, or at the least, that she was inherently untrustworthy enough to be a tenured faculty member, because of her "judgment" in marrying and, even after the scandal, not divorcing him.

People in committed relationships are still separate people. Perhaps the thinking that what a partner does is somehow also true about the other person reflects distortions about intimate relationships, and/or the boundaries between people in intimate relationships.

A couple of problems I see with the way you are going about discussing it with your T:

1. Because what happened with the T and the client was not your T's experience, she can't adequately explain it or defend it to you. Even if she fully understands it herself (which she may not, as her partner may not have made a full disclosure), to discuss it openly with you makes her have to violate both her partner's privacy and the privacy of their relationship. I can imagine that she is defensive, because you are forcing her to defend her own boundaries against your intrusion.

2. It seems to me that you're trying to get your T to say that what her partner did was wrong, terrible, just like the violation that happened to you. Aside from the fact that there is no way it can be the same, it is generally destructive to interpersonal relationships to insist that someone see things the way that you do. People with healthy boundaries allow those they care about to have different ideas, beliefs, and attitudes about things. Some of my lesbian friends mock the couples who dress alike, sound alike, do everything together. "L.M.M." they snicker, for lesbian mind meld. I couldn't imagine anything worse than to always agree with my spouse about everything. In 20 years of marriage, we've disagreed on almost everything, large and small, important and not so important. What makes it work is that we are willing to openly share our differences, and our feelings about being different from each other. And then there's the basic respect issue: even when she makes mistakes or when she's wrong (which is rare), I get why she makes the choices she does, even if I would do it differently.

I think if you could disengage from the hot-button hook of the content of this issue with your T, I think you'd gain some insight into your interpersonal dynamics-- either yours or those between the two of you-- that might allow you to learn something about how to improve the health and function of your relationships.

I agree with this as well. It's sort of guilt by association- the OP is making a lot of assumptions about her T based on what her T's partner has done in the past. I think it's important to remember that this is such an unusual situation that no training can really prepare you for it. The OP's T is human, and this is real life. So even though OP was triggered and wanted reassurance, when push comes to shove, most people - regardless of what they do for a living or what professional training they have - will defend the people they love first. It's instinct so I can't really blame the T for her defensiveness. If her partner manipulated, abused or otherwise treated her clients poorly, then I would worry about her personal ethics. But this doesn't seem to be the case. What happened is she got caught and lost her license. That may make the T's partner slightly dumb and lacking in common sense, but not necessarily a bad person. And when we are in love, no matter what gender or orientation, we ignore ALL the red flags. We see them later on usually but in the first year or two, not really.

Wait... Her partner DID abuse a client. Sleeping with a client is abusive. It's more than something dumb.

I think it's perfectly understandable for Scorpiosis to ask for (re)assurance what her T's boudaries re dating a client are.
When a friend of mine was dating her T I again discussed with my T what he thinks about client-T sex RS. I needed the extra assurance that this is a safe RS

Interesting! One thing up with which i will not put in my t is defensiveness! Ill be like, you cant get defensive with me, I LOVE YOU!! i have NO time in MY session for HIM to be defensive. Otherwise heck we would be there all effing day, amirite girls? sorry, i saw Kathy Griffin (comedian) on tv yesterday, she's a bad influence...

So - speculation - is the t in love because she feels she can save her partner? Is that part of the dynamic? Is that why she was pushing finding a partner on scorpio as a solution to her issues - oh love makes everything better? Cuz i dont see defending the one we love as instinct - just defending your own ego. Unless its like your kids. But thats not what this is. Its a relatively new relationship. Again, just speculating. And this contributes to what is going on in the relationship between scorpio & t.

Eta - just wanted to add - even tho i disagreed with amee slightly, thank you for bringing up this aspect. It gave me a different perspective on the sitch. Plus it inspired me to yell at my t today and that is always good!

And the T answered that question, so what else is this T to do? Break up with her partner to show her loyalty to the OP and to prove that she is an ethical trustworthy professional? Or would it just be acceptable if she she showed her loyalty by talking about her partner in a negative way with a client?

( Just an open question not adressed personally to you Anilam, eventhough I am quoting your post)

A few weeks ago the OP had issues with the T´s loyalty when seeing the OP´s friend too. Didn´t like that the loyalty got devided between the two of them

I think from an ethical point of view these are all interesting topics worthy of a debate. I am just not sure that´s really what this is ( ONLY) about?

Hm, must have missed her answering... Thanks. Sure not, what T does/doesn't do in her personal life is her thing.

[quote=anilam;3468269]Hm, must have missed her answering... Thanks. Sure not, what T does/doesn't do in her personal life is her thing.[/quote]

YES! I think we can agree on this one

My T actually did not answer about what her own boundaries and ethics are-- that is precisely what gave me pause. She did not say SHE would never do that or that she thought it was unethical for a T to sleep with a client. If she had, the issue would be laid to rest. I also never asked T for ANY information about her partner or her relationship. In fact, I told her I would rather NOT know any more information. I also never expected her to say her partner was bad or anything like that; I just wanted her to assure me that SHE thinks it is unethical to sleep with a client. That she does not tolerate that in HER practice. This issue probably bothers me more than others because my therapy has largely been healing from having my own boundaries violated when I was younger. I have had other traumatic experiences related to boundaries happen to me, which I have not chosen to share on the forum, but I have shared with my T. I have a hard time feeling safe in general, so that is why this triggers me. Of course I do not think my T should dump her partner or anything like that. I do not in any way think I am entitled to know about or intervene in or have an opinion about my T's private life. I only wanted to be reassured that I am safe with my T. I also want the opportunity to process with my T the things that Were triggered in me after hearing this information. So far I haven't been able to do that because she did not talk about them with me. She only talked about how unfortunate it is that people allow what her partner did to reflect on her. She did not talk with me about how this triggered the nanny stuff, how it made me feel unsafe, or anything else about my feelings. She talked about her own feelings about finding out people associated her with her partner, professionally. I agree that's a human reaction and I don't blame her for that . I just also want the opportunity to talk about my feelings and get to the place where I feel safe enough to continue being open and vulnerable in therapy. Right now I do not feel that way.

I agree with what you are saying, but I do not have any desire for my T to be just like me or to think just like me. Nor do I desire that in other relationships. In fact, for both being feminist queer women, T and I are as different as could be. I like those differences, and I find it fascinating to ask her about her worldview or preferences that are different from mine. We both agree that we've learned from each other's different experiences and perspectives. All I want from my T is to be told , explicitly, what her own boundaries are in therapy so I know I count on them in order to feel safe.

As far as dating relationships go, I've never even dated another academic, another woman with my religious background, another woman of my own nationality, or another woman who shares my volunteer activities or hobbies. Aside from dating other femmes, I am very interested in finding partners who bring something different to the table. One of my favorite things about dating someone new is getting to be shown a slice of their life and showing them a slice of mine in return. I think some shared values are important, but I'm really not looking for clone. I've grown a lot by being introduced to new experiences and new perspectives and hope to continue to grow in that way in the future.

I think I was wrong to come to the conclusion that your T gave you a clear answer. I think she sort of did " between the lines" as you descreibed a good conversation with her ( page 7) Did you ask her specifically?? And aren´t you still " forcing" her to say her partner was unethical thereby " forcing" her to pick sides. Sometimes when people don´t answer our qustions directly, they are setting up a personal boundary. If your T don´t like being compared with her partner/ her actions, she is saying she doesn´t approve but in a way where she remains proffessional and avoids talking about her partner in a negative way infront of a client. You have written that you´re sure your T won´t hit on you or cross any boundaries. Seems like you have trust in her professional behaviour, so what´s it really about? I am sorry, I am not sure you can get a proffesional to take the side of a client, instead of their loved ones.

I really don't see this as an issue that has sides or that asks my T to take sides. I would not expect my T to take my side over her partner's or to put me above her partner, kids, or friends. I think what I am asking her is different. I'm asking her what HER boundaries are in her practice and I'm wanting to make sure that those are boundaries I can live with. I think I have the right to know, as a client, what my T's boundaries are and what I can expect from her. It may be possible that she can have different boundaries from her partner, without condemning her partner. It's also possible that there are times T's own views correspond more with mine, or another client's, or a friend's-- than they do with her partner. That doesn't mean she is taking that person's "side" over her partner's. That is just stating her own views.

I do think my T would ever cross a sexual boundary with me. She is not attracted to me. However, I would not choose to see a T who would ever cross that boundary with any client. I would also not choose to see a T who embezzled money, violated client confidentiality, failed to obtain proper insurance-- or anything else that violated the ethics codes and put her at risk for losing her license. All of those things could end up affecting me and causing me to lose my T. I don't want to take those risks.

I also do have some more minor questions about the tightness of T's boundaries in other areas. I think she may be unintentionally enabling some dependence which may not be entirely healthy. It is certainly not unethical, but I have some questions about whether T really has the insight to know how best to help me. I have those questions and yet I'm so attached to my T that I don't really want to acknowledge them. That makes me wonder if my attachment is healthy. t tells me that it is, but I don't know if I trust that.

That is not the impression I am left with after reading your multiple, and lengthy posts on this thread about quite lengthy conversations that you had. If that is all you wanted, you could have just said that without even revealing that you had heard the gossip that you had. I'd freely admit that I could most certainly be wrong, but I don't think you have clearly communicated that with your T-- or, your message has been lost amidst the extraneous issues you and/or she have inserted into the conversation.

What you say you want is really simple. I think of having that conversation with my T, and it would go like this:

Me: I need to feel that the boundaries of our therapy are intact, whole, and ethical. I can't feel safe unless I'm reassured of this.

Her: Sure. Our relationship is a therapeutic one, which means that it is contained within this room for one hour each week. I will not break the boundaries of this relationship by entering into any kind of other relationship with you-- social, business, friendship, or sexual.

Me: You won't hit on me or otherwise attempt to draw me into a non-therapeutic relationship?

Her: No, I will not.

Me: Thank you.

I think this is the scariest part of relationships when a healthy one has not been modeled in our early life - negotiating; accepting that the other person - or even yourself! - isnt perfect. Thats one of the problems of being a perfectionist (im in recovery ) - people who can accept imperfections at least get SOME needs met. Perfect me gets left sitting alone on the sidelines, no needs met. Conditional love - we never got anything as kids. Unconditional love as adults - maybe reciprocal terms are better. Unconditional positive regard from t is just to help us make the jump from unhealthy to healthy - its not a place to stay forever. Imo.

Quote: Maybe that’s what is difficult for me. With the situation with my friend awhile back , and now with this, I feel like I can’t fully express my feelings, because I don’t think T can fully be on my side. Her loyalty rests elsewhere. I don’t have anyone who can fully be on my side all of the time, and that’s something I want in a therapist. The whole point of not knowing that kind of information about T—and not having an RL intersection with T—is that it allows T to be “on your side.” That is what I feel like I’ve lost.

Sorry, thats what got me a bit confused about " taking sides"/loyalty. I must have misunderstood.

To be honest. I can understand you wanting to discuss your friend ( her client) and her partner in session, but I think you sort of gave up your privilegde of her being completely on your side in sessions by doing so. You´re putting her in an extremely difficult professional situation and I think she is handling it quite well by setting some boundaries, while still discussing it with you. Most T´s wouldn´t engage in something like that. ( At least mine wouldn´t)

I'm not sure what is really going on but it feels to me like this is really about something else. I don't think you feel unsafe with your ts boundaries. It seems like you are wanting to challenge your t for some other purpose of which I am not sure. It feels like a stretch to be this distressed over something that didn't involve you and didn't even involve your t. I don't think anything she says is going to satisfy you as you seem to want to be upset with her.

I don't think the T needs to break up with her partner to show loyalty to anybody. And I don't think OP put the T in a difficult position. I've been educated watching on OP is quite clear on what is her issue, and that she is entitled to her feelings about things, without taking it to blaming and shaming. I think OP just wants acknowledgment that the connection between T's partner and T's partner's client was unethical. I think she wanted assurance that her T was clear on boundary, and not situational.

I believe she said, in so many words, that she just wanted her T to acknowledge it was bad behavior. Perhaps bad behavior that she has learned from, and grown. I don't think she was really judging T's spouse. Just wanting it to be clear that T found this kind of behavior unacceptable.

And in the process of talking about this, OP learned that it seems that confidentiality was probably breached.

That makes sense to me. How hard would I push this? in light of all my interactions with T (both good and bad)? I don't know. I'm guessing OP doesn't know. I'm guessing that is part of her struggle. I think she was saying she jsut thought T should acknowledge it was unethical behavior.

But perhaps I am mistaken.