[AmysJourney]

I had this problem with a friend of mine who for months now couldn't stop whining and complaining about her problem. It frustrated me, it wore me out. It made me pull back, then she felt rejected and lonely. So I let her tell me all about things again and I tried to help but she refused any type of help - all she wanted was to dwell in her problem.
So I talked about this with my therapist and she says in her job they have a name for people like my friend: “help-rejecting complainers”. She says that there is a new school of thought emerging within her profession which advocates that therapists set stricter rules for "complainers" who don't want to hear advice or get any help. Some even terminate these clients and tell them to come back when they feel ready to move on or really work on things. Or they "ban" overvisited topics for a few sessions. She sent me a link to this article this morning (below) to help me get the situation with my friend into perspective.
And I don't quite know what to think about it.
My therapist greatly supports these therapists who take a stricter stance on complainers and says she has terminated with clients who seemed to just want the attention but not do the work.

What do you think? I am interested in how you guys feel about this. I feel a bit torn - on one side I believe my therapist definitely has a point on the other hand I wonder what this does to the unconditional positive regard standpoint.

How to Stop Whining: In Therapy, a Move to Tough Love - WSJ.com

[stopdog]

I would find a different therapist. If a client is willing to pay to complain, perhaps it is because they have no other place to do it. I do not believe the therapist has a right to judge what a client needs or wants, but I suppose if the therapist does not want to listen they can stop seeing the client. I really object to the idea a client is not working or whatever. I believe the client's end of the bargain is to pay the therapist and leave at the correct time. Anything else the client does or does not do is theirs and an impatient or judgmental therapist is not going to change the client either. Or it wouldn't make me change anything except therapists.

I agree with stopdog. Someone could have OCD and be totally focused on a certain problem. The therapist should try to help them with that, not label them. I think that term is totally disgusting. Therapy in general is beginning to totally disgust me.

[LaborIntensive]

Well I think we're talking about this ongoing issue that is lasting for 6 months or longer. I know folks like that but every 3, month they find a new problem to complain about. Always very petty but the same thing over and over. I actually like people who complain about many things for long periods as this way I can chime and complain too and together find a reason to laugh.

[Freewilled]

I think it has merit because it's very easy to go to therapy and get stuck on some more external stuff going on that it really masking deeper issues....but it often takes time to move through things. My T has taken a tough love stance before that thoroughly hurt and pissed me off BUT looking back, it was the best thing he did for me because I have real issues that we have been focusing in on ever since. I don't think people consciously try to be "whiners" or "crybabies" so the language used in the article is pretty insensitive IMO. I think it sets up the professionals to start taking a negative view of their clients which does no good.

It's a delicate balance and dependent on the client and his/her unique issues.

I also do not agree with terminating a client by saying come back when you're ready to "do the work" and believe this stance says much more about the therapist than the client.

[Asiablue]

I don't think that just cos the clients pays that they get free reign to be obnoxious or do whatever they please even if it is therapy interfering behaviours. I think the therapist has a duty to point out to career complainers their behaviours that are perhaps impacting their personal relationships with people.

So i agree with this article. If someone is feeding off the attention and the unconditional positive regard but not moving forward to the goals they claim they want help with then the therapist has the right to terminate.

My mother is a chronic complainer and it drains the life out of you and leaves you completely resentful and worn down. So i have strong probably unpopular opinions on this.

[AmysJourney]

I think I can see both advantage and disadvantage. For me personally, I love that my therapist is able to feels comfortable to practice some tough love on me ( I wish she would more sometimes). I definitely need a therapist who doesn't just accept my crap but points out clearly when I am going on and on about the same thing without making any progress. For me, personally that attitude has helped me heal. But for others this may not be the right approach at all. And then it can be damaging I think. So I think that a therapist who supports the views in the article needs to also have a real understanding of why some people can't break out easily of their cycles.

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[Freewilled]

Originally Posted by Asiablue

I don't think that just cos the clients pays that they get free reign to be obnoxious or do whatever they please even if it is therapy interfering behaviours. I think the therapist has a duty to point out to career complainers their behaviours that are perhaps impacting their personal relationships with people.

So i agree with this article. If someone is feeding off the attention and the unconditional positive regard but not moving forward to the goals they claim they want help with then the therapist has the right to terminate.

My mother is a chronic complainer and it drains the life out of you and leaves you completely resentful and worn down. So i have strong probably unpopular opinions on this.

Everyone complains in therapy though, no? I mean let's be honest. I don't think most people go into a session week after week to talk about how great everything is. Yes, we might explore positive steps taken and even positive feelings, but this is not the majority of the time. Especially when it comes to trauma work. Is it wrong to talk about the problems? I find this subject rather confusing....

[unaluna]

So thats why my ts over the years would ask me if i thought seeing them was helping. I was always quick to assure them they were doing a fine job and that i would be lost without them. As annoying as i am now, i am sure i was infinitely more annoying then. But it was hard for me to live thru too. Dissociation rules!

[Asiablue]

Originally Posted by Freewilled

Everyone complains in therapy though, no? I mean let's be honest. I don't think most people go into a session week after week to talk about how great everything is. Yes, we might explore positive steps taken and even positive feelings, but this is not the majority of the time. Especially when it comes to trauma work. Is it wrong to talk about the problems? I find this subject rather confusing....

Of course! Everyone complains. But that article isn't talking about general complaining or someone who is revisiting the same subject over and over until they can internalise and understanding of it.

It's talking about the people who are making no progress, no attempt to progress, that are not ready to make changes. Or people who are having great difficulty with being isolated by people in their lives because of their chronic complaining. Isn't it the duty of the therapist to point out negative behaviours that could be hindering that client from leading a happy life?

That article is not talking about discriminating or being cruel to these clients but offering "tough-love" offering to help them learn how to get to the source of the complaining, what's beneath the complaint, what's making them stuck.

A client has a right to be however they like in therapy as long as they don't disrespect or harm the therapist then basically they can go and complain. It depends on which type of therapist you see too, a cbt therapist will try to change your views on how you think about situations so you won't feel the need to complain, they will also set goals and plans of actions and want to hear how they are working out and if you don't follow those plans then you will likely be referred or terminated but other styles of therapy if a client wants to complain- telling them they are complaining is invalidating their feelings. We pay a therapist to have empathy and understanding, mostly likely most people complain because they need to talk about something and if a t tells them to stop complaining it is silencing them again, a friend or family member could do that. I would certainly have no qualms about getting a new therapist if they told me to stop whining and I would tell them the reason I am still whining is because you are not doing your job and helping me out of this stuck feeling I am in.

People who complain feel helpless and stuck and all they need is a kind ear most of the time and the belief in themselves that they can get through it. It is a therapists job to show the client there are options but not to tell them how to live their life or dish out advice and then scorn them for not taking it/ that is not therapy.

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[feralkittymom]

It sounds like mediocre Ts--gasp--whining about their client base.

[Freewilled]

Originally Posted by Asiablue

Of course! Everyone complains. But that article isn't talking about general complaining or someone who is revisiting the same subject over and over until they can internalise and understanding of it.

It's talking about the people who are making no progress, no attempt to progress, that are not ready to make changes. Or people who are having great difficulty with being isolated by people in their lives because of their chronic complaining. Isn't it the duty of the therapist to point out negative behaviours that could be hindering that client from leading a happy life?

That article is not talking about discriminating or being cruel to these clients but offering "tough-love" offering to help them learn how to get to the source of the complaining, what's beneath the complaint, what's making them stuck.

How does one discriminate between those who are making no attempt toward progress and those ready for change? How do they look any different?

[stopdog]

Tough love would perhaps cause me to not see that therapist either because of the therapist's choice or mine or both- but it is not going to cause me to do anything differently.
I get to choose what and how I change -a therapist does not.

I haven't read the article yet but my first off the top of my head response is "whatever happened to 'it takes as long as it takes'?" I'll hush up and go read the article now....

[Asiablue]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Tough love would perhaps cause me to not see that therapist either because of the therapist's choice or mine or both- but it is not going to cause me to do anything differently.
I get to choose what and how I change -a therapist does not.

I'm assuming it's on a client by client basis and that a therapist has a good enough relationship with the client to know how they will take "tough love."

And it is all about choice for both client and therapist. The client can choose to stop whining and start working or not and the therapist can choose whether they can work with a client who chronically complains or not. The therapist shouldn't be and isn't under any obligation to work with any client group.

Some therapists really have no idea what they're doing and probably shouldn't be working with any clients.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by Asiablue

I'm assuming it's on a client by client basis and that a therapist has a good enough relationship with the client to know how they will take "tough love."

And it is all about choice for both client and therapist. The client can choose to stop whining and start working or not and the therapist can choose whether they can work with a client who chronically complains or not. The therapist shouldn't be and isn't under any obligation to work with any client group.

I agree a therapist does not have to work with any one they don't want to work with but mostly because I think it would be bad for the client. I actually don't worry about therapists. I completely disagree that anyone other than the client can decide about whether a client is working or not.

Sometimes a client is working at just surviving and getting out of bed everyday and spending all of their energy on getting out of bed to go see their t to have their t tell them they are not working or they are complaining makes me so angry at these so called ts. I think it's more to do with the ts ego's and how they like to see results

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[Asiablue]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I agree a therapist does not have to work with any one they don't want to work with but mostly because I think it would be bad for the client. I actually don't worry about therapists. I completely disagree that anyone other than the client can decide about whether a client is working or not.

yeah, those were my words rather than what that article was saying.

But the article does say that a chronic whiner is someone who isn't taking responsibility for their own problems that when they whine without intention to actually do anything about it that they are essentially communicating to the listener " you fix it". And that is what makes it very frustrating and wearing for people (not talking about therapists here).

[Asiablue]

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

Sometimes a client is working at just surviving and getting out of bed everyday and spending all of their energy on getting out of bed to go see their t to have their t tell them they are not working or they are complaining makes me so angry at these so called ts. I think it's more to do with the ts ego's and how they like to see results

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That's not the type of people these therapists are talking about.

[AmysJourney]

I don't think I would want my therapist to just accept my endless whining and complaining. It wouldn't make a good fit for me if my therapist would enable me to stay in my whining "as long as it takes". Also, my therapist has the duty to assess my progress and can make the decision to terminate me if I am not taking part in the work or if she feels I am not ready to do the work. There are ethical guidelines also about this. So my therapist is not just there to listen and accept everything I throw at her, she is there to guide me, help me see things that I may not necessarily see myself. And I needed this tough love a few times in therapy and I know feel, apart from a few deeper issues a completely different person. And we should also remember we are talking about extreme cases here. My friend is an extreme case and I am extremely patient, but it drains thee life out of me. And there are simple things that would help her instantly. But she feels she gets more attention with her whining and she is losing all of her friends. And then that makes her even more stuck in her misery. I was like her once and gosh, I really am thankful for a couple of tough therapists today!

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Originally Posted by Asiablue

That's not the type of people these therapists are talking about.

I didn't say it was- I am just complaining about therapists who say their clients aren't working

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I didn't read the article yet, but at first this idea seemed far-fetched, that it almost seemed as if it wasn't true.

Being that this type of behavior is a complex, defensive strategy for people with complex issues behind the behavior, my guess would be that a T could be sued for malpractice for terminating a client for having this problem. I suppose they could get away with it if they terminated the client for not being able to help them. And of course a T with this mindset couldn't help them indeed because it is a sign of someone who is not competent in treating the most complex problems of the human psyche.

I don't like the behavior either. My mother is a perpetual victim. The problem is, if this defensive strategy is undone, I really think she would have a total breakdown. It would be harmful to force her to relinquish this defense that is unconscious to her. And denial is the defense mechanism that keeps in unconscious.

Yes, so this behavior bothers me too, but none of us chose which defensive strategies to start adopting while we are babies. I didn't choose dissociation and repression. People don't choose the splitting that borderline and narcissistic clients do. Just like people don't choose to be in denial. My mother didn't choose to be a perpetual victim at the time it developed. The defensive processes start with infant development. My mother uses denial a lot too. Her use of this defense has really harmed me when I was a child. So observing others use this defense can be frustrating to me, so I understand.

So while it's frustrating to observe, it can be dangerous to force someone to stop doing it, and a therapist that careless could be sued for malpractice I suppose. Yes, it can take years. I am starting to have more compassion for people who adopt these kind of behaviors. I try. But they really aren't any better or worse than any of the other defense strategies people use-denial, obsessive behavior, perfectionism, closing oneself off to intimacy/attachment, DID, etc., although it seems some are deemed more acceptable than others, depending on the group.

Anyway, it's an interesting discussion.

[Yearning0723]

Originally Posted by Asiablue

That's not the type of people these therapists are talking about.

I guess my question is, how would a T know if someone just likes to complain or if that complaining is masking all this pain that they just can't access, and maybe won't be able to access until they learn to trust the T more, and the T telling them to stop complaining would destroy that trust that needs to be built?