“Help-rejecting complainers”

I think if you've worked with a T for any amount of time, the T begins to know you. T will know what you can handle, and can begin to see patterns that we might not see.

When I bring up a topic with T, sometimes I need to talk a little about it (not necessarily 'complaining' but sometimes I tend to hyper-focus on something less painful because I don't want to work on the tough stuff). Friday, she said, ok, I'm glad you told me (after we spent about 5-10 min on it) but we aren't going to stay here.

However, she and I have defined goals - and she helps keep me on track because I do have a habit of distracting or deflecting.

I have a friend who I could classify in this category of 'help-rejecting complainer' - she goes inpatient in psych unit, gets meds changed, and upon discharge she stops taking meds, she continues to complain about how no one ever listens to her and how wronged she was/is by everyone. It's always the same story, only the players change occasionally. Though I can see she interprets things incorrectly sometimes which I have personally witnessed and tried to help correct - yet it's rejected. Always.

Her complaining only serves to keep her stuck in her misery. If/when it's challenged she feels attacked and says people are blaming her for her abuse...

It's a different dynamic though when you're a T versus a friend. A T sees the help-rejecting complainer 1-2 hours a week. There are already built in limits to the relationship. Friends on the otherhand, can become extremely draining, as they are certainly not limited to 1-2 hours per week unless you specifically put that limit on the relationship (which of course leads the person to feel rejected again).

I assume that a therapist would spend enough time with that client getting to know them, finding out how they think and feel and their inner working, and then spend time finding out what they need to feel better, to enhance their lives, and then try to support them in doing that.

After all that, i'd imagine they could make a fairly accurate summation in whther the client is ready to access the pain, whether it's a problem of trust or whether the client just doesn't want to "go there".

And the article is suggesting HOW to work with these types of clients not how to get rid of them. It's giving suggestions how to get below the presenting complaining and to what's really at the core.

Does it ever occur to a therapist the client might reject help because the therapist is wrong or her advice is bad? Sometimes too, advice giving is its own entrapment, firing consecutive ignorant solutions, then sighing in exasperation at the rejecter's hopelessness.

And there are many times, passages, tunnels when a life will be painful. Sometimes all the alternatives are dreadful, or one chooses to adhere for a later payoff. Or maybe there are options, but the risk might be too great. Or despite everything, someone strategically chooses to stick with the devil she knows or the lug she once loved. Or maybe she's too tired to move again.

Sometimes the only alternative is simply to wail.

I'd say a therapist who thinks she can pants kick a client into excising all pain and problems, to live without uncertainty, difficulty or texture is in the wrong business. She should find something less messy and inconvenient.

I agree with missbella. I am so sick of therapists who think they are so all-knowing and all-powerful and have all the answers. Therapy is not a safe place. It just isn't. No matter how safe you think it is, it is not.

How do you know when regularly discussing life stressers becomes whining?? I noticed the discussed repeatedly bringing up work. T and I discuss my work EVERY time I see her. She knows I work at a very stressful job that I love. The turnover rate for my position is 2 1/2 years I have worked there for almost 7 years. I love the work but working in psych and in a hospital is very stressful. We have also discussed me getting a different job but she agrees that finding a job in this area right now is difficult never mind one that offers the flexibility and rewards that I have now.

I've read about this before, and had conversations about it when I was in therapy. Because of attachment issues I had to whine through therapy and have my whining heard and responded to in a positive manner no matter how long each whine took. It was the underlying fears that had me whining. As I had my therapist positive regard and attention I learned to address the underlying fears and the whines got shorter and shorter. As my therapist use to say, "It takes as long as it takes."

I hope therapist that work this way in the article are up front about their style as a new client walks through the door.

I watched the video and quickly read thru the article. This doesn't seemed targeted for trauma patients or those with complex problems. It sounds like it only applies to the moderately neurotic. The chronic complaining mentioned is actually a form of rage, in my opinion. And I agree that rage doesn't get you anywhere and can't always be examined, and that it's difficult to listen to.

So true.

After complaining about my job in therapy I DID change jobs, leaving a stable company for an unstable one. I had the same problems and more. My therapist, not the omniscient person she thought, had no more insight than I that my real problem was navigating office politics.

A therapist ignorantly can push a client into making a change--but the wrong change.

The other problem I see is that all the "solutions" are behavioral. OK: let's say the T is fantastic at this sort of intervention and manages to shift the client out of the complaining behavior. Everyone cheers. But if the complaining is a defense, and it probably is in a high majority of cases, a new defense will simply arise to take over the job. The underlying issues have not been addressed--only the outward manifestation that happens to annoy everyone.

Yes, how true! They also blamed the behavior on Facebook and TV.

Behavioral interventions never get to the root of the problem, but I suppose it *might* help those who are mildly neurotic. In the few cases where it might work, however, the effect of behavioral interventions is often temporary. The behavior will come back, or perhaps more likely-as you said, it will simply take another form.

Thank you. That was my take on it also.

My T exercises this philosophy to a certain extent. He NEVER takes this approach in terms of my trauma, etc., but if he sees me slip into the "woe is me" mode over work for instance, he'll call me on it in a second. I can choose to wallow in my misery (again talking about something relatively benign in my life as work), or I can problem-solve the situation, figure out where the issues lie, come up with possible solutions, and work my way forward. He's not going to let me get away with making my own life miserable over something as fixable as a work issue when I have so many truly serious, potentially life-changing and permanently damaging issues to work through and cope with.

It is easy to fall into the belief that you are completely powerless in ALL things after you have truly been powerless in SOME, but the reality is we have more power to control outcomes in life than we are often able to even recognize. I, for one, am eternally grateful for a therapist who has taught me that I am much more powerful than I give myself credit for. If he sat back and just let me complain without pushing me toward solutions when solutions are realistic, I would be stuck. I'm done being stuck, at least where I have real options.

This article isn't addressing complex, traumatic issues. We sometimes forget here that probably most people are actually not in therapy long-term for such complicated trauma issues. A large portion of therapy is conducted short-term for more typical issues such as marriage/family conflict, work issues, goal setting, short-term depression or anxiety, etc. As much as we'd like to think we are the rule here, I suspect most of us are the exception.

Exactly, I think this applies to short term cbt or brief solution focused therapy and not the more complex long term therapy a lot of us here attend!

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It was difficult for me to understand my larger problem until I was many miles down the road. I could complain about this boss or that co-worker, the immediate problem, but unless the therapist followed me around all day, she won't see I'm not great at office politics.

And even with much more trial and error over the years, it likely will be more difficult for me than for others.

Chris, I would agree with you but it sounds like what your T does is CBT within the context of knowing you inside and out. That's not the sense I get from this intervention. I don't think it has nearly the depth of thought behind it that CBT does.

I see this more as a backlash against so-called millennial behavior. About 10 years ago we were all being herded into seminars to teach us how to adjust our workplaces to the millennial personality. I think that was fine in a good economy. But post recession, business decided it needed productivity more than millennial ego-stroking. So now it's "shut up and grow up" time. I think it's not by accident that this was picked up by WSJ.

But unfortunately, this sort of approach will bleed into populations it's unsuitable for because they always do.

The only thing I am going to say thus far is:

If you do not feel that your therapist's office is a safe place, then you are probably seeing the wrong therapist. It should be a place where you can discuss ANYTHING, no matter how uncomfortable it may be. I am not saying it is easy, it usually isn't but in the end, it should feel as if it was worth it. My therapist has done an amazing job at creating a safe place for me, which is noteworthy: I don't feel safe too many places, or with too many people.

That being said: my therapist knows those days when I just need to 'chat' for lack of a better word; those days when I need her to lead the session; those days where my control freak self needs to do almost all of the talking; those days when I need her to call me out on something, and those days when I just need a plain ole' kick in the butt. No to mention so many scenarios I am probably leaving out. I adore her, and have a great deal of respect for her.

What if you need attention from someone and you need someone to complain to? I don't always make progress or cooperate. LCM once asked me how she was helping me and I told her she is someone I can feel safe talking to and makes me feel like I have someone in the world who will care and listen. She said that is really important for me to have. Isn't that important for everyone to have? It's so much easier to find the bad/unpleasant stuff in life. Everyone has to start somewhere. Maybe not believing it's possible to change and just enjoying having someone to listen once a week is a good start, even if it lasts years.

I dunno. I'm just really happy my T's are patient and kind with me when I sometimes reject their help and whine like a teenager who was just asked to do something by their mother. I need some space to be obnoxious so the good stuff feels safe to come out.

I think my T falls into the school of thought where there is a limit to how much complaining about a certain issue without actually DOING anything about it that he will tolerate. He will let me complain about certain things seemingly endlessly (trauma related things and my weird responses), and he says that the recovery takes as long as it takes. However, when it came to issues around my husband, he had more of a "DO SOMETHING" kind of attitude, and explicitly stated that he was tired of hearing about H. However, when I explained why I couldn't just DO what I thought needed to be done, he was incredibly helpful in assisting me with coming up with ideas about what I could do to take incremental steps toward where we needed to go.

Just as a human, I know I get tired and impatient of the people who just shoot down each and every suggestion that might help them, and seem determined to just wallow in misery rather than do anything to change their situation. I have a great deal of sympathy for therapist who have to deal with people like that on a daily basis. I think there is a huge difference between people who have suffered trauma and just have to move very slowly in addressing it, and those who are like my mother and just prefer to endlessly complain and have others cater to them and pity them rather than expend the effort to actually improve their lives.

I also understand that I am not inside any other person's head and I do not get to judge whether or not they are actually making an effort. Therefore, I just have to act to preserve my own mental health by avoiding those who just cause me anger and distress by their behavior.

I think I take issue more with the article about the technique than the technique. "Whining" and "crybaby" are very insulting words, and I think the article writer was trying to make people angry, as journalists will.

I'd prefer my t to tell me if he saw me caught in a loop, or if I was stuck, or even if I was annoying him repeatedly, because that is almost certainly an effect I'm having on people in my real life, too. I would hope he would think more about his phrasing and communication, though, because if he told me to stop whining he'd get an earful of strong language (and crying, probably).

This concept makes me INSANELY angry. I'm not going to deconstruct it right now because I'm struggling today and I don't want to feed the crap in my head by riling myself up, but it is such a ****ing smug and blinkered attitude to take.

Now excuse me, I gotta back out of this thread and find another one to go whine and complain on somewhere.

I don't think everyone complains in therapy. I don't think I do (as a general rule). Complaining implies talking about the bad parts if life without seeking resolution (it implies that to me, anyway).

However, it is my dime so I can say what I want to say (even if I'm just griping about my hectic week). It probably isn't a wise use of financial resources, but if that's what I want to do with $100/week, that is my prerogative.

It is also the therapist's prerogative to refer me elsewhere if they feel that they aren't a good fit for my complaining.

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I'm going through a similar problem with a "friend" whose just gone through a divorce. She complained for years about her bad marriage, and I would give her suggestions... finally I was just suggesting she find someone who can make her happy. Then she got the divorce, and just continued on and on, won't date anyone new, won't take any measures I think clearly would make her life more comfortable right now.

One day I was having a crisis and went to her to talk and could see she was totally disinterested and instead wanted to go over the same issues she has with the divorce... I'm taking a break from her right now. I've been trying to kindly just change the topic and or avoid her all together until things blow over. Not sure this is a good thing or not, she actually seems quite mad at me now.

I guess it all depends on how one defines "complain"....I'm oversensitive to the idea that I'm complaining or venting and should just pick myself up by the bootstraps....it's excruciatingly difficult for me to be vulnerable and admit I need help. It torments me almost much of the time. But that's my own issue I'm working on.....

I think approach would only be viable with a small selection of the population who enter therapy. This would not work for people with PTSD, anxiety, depression, etc. It would be so demeaning.

I think people highly underestimate the value of understanding and validation in therapy.

Petra, I am having that same experience with a friend. Quite literally, she has been having issues with her husband for the last 9 years. Three years ago, she kicked him out, but then let him move back in. She complains about him all the time, but rejects any offer of help or suggestions. I'm an attorney and even offered to do the divorce for her. However, when I try to discuss any issue I have with her, she doesn't seem at all interested. I think that is where my T thought I was headed with my husband issues.