My T is Wrong

My relationships with people when I was in my 20's were very similar to yours, or at least my feelings were. In the 2 decades of observing that it wasn't working for me, I've learned a few things that have helped me have deep and satisfying, intimate and supportive connections with other people. I'm going to share them in case they might be helpful, or something might resonate with you.

1. Very rarely are people's behavior and sometimes even statements directed at you actually about you. Especially true with social activities when you are out of college, working, and there is no longer the close proximity to lots of people to keep relationships open and consistent. Many people have trouble with making plans, following through on plans, etc. They are wrapped up in their own lives, especially if partnered and it gets even worse when they have kids. They might do things with other people not as an attempt to exclude anyone, but because it was easy at the time. They might not be willing to schedule things too far ahead of time because their family is going to visit that weekend, etc etc etc. Their choices about what they do and who they do it with aren't messages to their friends about what or who they value. Their choices just reflect what they want or need for themselves right there, or pure random opportunity. People are also very unaware, on average, about the perception that their choices might have on other people. I've run into people years later and had conversations like this: "I thought you didn't want to hang around me any more." "Are you kidding? I thought you didn't want to hang out with me anymore."

2. Interpreting a lack of caring about me from their actions had a sort of self fulfilling prophesy to it. This dovetails with learning that trying to guess/mind read/insert my own biased beliefs for how people feel about me (in the absence of them telling me directly) wormed its way into the way I treated other people. If I think you don't care about me, I'm going to speak and act in ways that may even very subtly feel entitled and mean and upset. The other person senses it even if I don't speak about it. If the other person asks me if I'm upset, I'll tell him/her, but my feelings will come out all "hot" and messed up because they have at their base an interpretation of the other person's feelings that is not correct. (I think if someone bothers to ask you what's wrong or is willing to listen to what's wrong, they do care).

3. I started to understand that telling people, directly or indirectly, that they don't care about me feels bad to them. It's an accusation and a hostile one at that, and it's inconsistent with supportive and nurturing relationships. I looked around my life and thought "all these people really don't care about me? Really? Every single one?" Eventually I saw that it was more that I could feel or accept their caring, or it wasn't in precisely the form that I wanted it to be. Because we can't force people to respond and react in the ways that we want. If they do, then that doesn't mean they care. It may mean that they are just afraid of losing us, in which case they will play whatever game they need to keep us around. But healthy people don't necessarily like to have to prove their love or their caring nor do they like to be boxed into a way of being a friend that doesn't feel authentic to me. I learned to find the ways that people showed me they cared rather than identifying ways that I thought meant they didn't care. Big difference.

4. I learned it was worth looking at how I responded to other people when I disagreed with them. I care about you - no you don't. That's a very different communication than "can we have lunch next week?" or whatever I was really after. I learned to problem solve better about scheduling things-- this person doesn't like to schedule more than a few days out in advance-- this person only wants to hang out after 7pm--this person likes spontaneous activities-- this person is good for long talks on the phone, etc. Usually when people say no it's because of some issue with making a commitment, not because they don't want to hang out with me.

And so it is with this "disagreement" with your T, which I'm sure you will share with her on your next session. It feels like your reaction is pretty hostile, she's a liar, or she's stupid, or she's wrong. That reaction in and of itself is worth looking at in terms of your real life disagreements. Do you make an effort to try to understand where the other person is coming from, if you don't agree? Or do you immediately dismiss them as wrong, couldn't be a kernel of truth in what they say, suspect their motives or otherwise distrust them? Are you defensive in response to disagreements, do you argue to the death for your own beliefs, or can you listen to something that you don't think is right in order to be "in the shoes" of someone else. That, I think, is one of the bases of compassion and support that makes for good relationships. I found that when I stopped being so defensive and reactive to differences of opinion and became more curious about how I could see it differently, my social world really opened up.

Yes, this is exactly it. When I say things like that, and she says it's not true, she doesn't stop and figure out whether what I'm saying has some basis in reality. So I continue to feel like she doesn't get it or can't understand, while still holding all these things in me. And it makes me less likely to talk about it next time it comes up.

I'm not so sure she doesn't try to connect, just that she's not connecting with what I want her to understand, if that makes sense.

A lot of this is worth a lot of thought. Thank you.

I do not speak to people in the way I speak about people. I think I'm open-minded. Maybe their perception is different. But I try to be open and willing to hear what they're saying. And I don't directly accuse people of not caring. When I disagree with someone or tell them that something they did hurt me, I follow the "When you did ___, I felt ____. I would like you to do ____ instead." method of confrontation. It makes things much easier. But at the same time, if this isn't true, how can I work on it if no one will tell me? How can I be better at anything if no one will tell me what's wrong?

Right. Whatever she is trying to do, the result is not connecting with you.

I am just wondering if your highly intense feelings surrounding this experience arise because, just like the others you describe in your life, the bottom line is that T does not join with you.

Oh, I think i see what's happening.

It seems like you feel she is distorting reality. I would so not be ok with that as my mom gaslighted me and lied to me!!

My therapist does this to a lesser degree. It doesn't bother me like it bothers you and i just let it go. But in your case, i hope you can get this resolved.

I can't remember everything at the moment, but there are some i remember:

--I took a picture for him and texted it; i messaged "sorry it's a bad picture but i wanted to take it for you". Well, what i wrote in the text somehow did not come across, and he wrote back something + "great picture!". The picture was really, really bad, in terms of aesthetics. I didn't have the opportunity to take another. lol

--We were talking about my job responsibilities at work and i mentioned something different that was really difficult I was going to be doing. He said "I think you'd be really good at that". There was no indication that I would be good at something like this and he knows little to nothing about the subject.

There have been other things i don't remember right now. He doesn't do it that much, so i just let it go, but if he did, i might have flashbacks because of the gaslighting my Mom did. Did your Mom lie to you a lot?

Maybe. I will have to think more about that.

YES! Exactly! My mom did it to a lesser extent. My father did it much more. But this is exactly it. And she probably has no idea that's how it's coming across to me.

Maybe she could tone it down or stop then? I've had issues with people who do this all my life--and like you, i called it "fakeness" before i realized what was going on inside myself. I can't tolerate people who do this to a certain degree all the time, so I just stay away from them if possible. If it were your friends and others, i'd say well we have to learn to live with it somehow, or do avoidance, but coming from a therapist, like in your case, it causes unnecessary triggering that is interfering with your work. This is probably more good session material Hazel.

My last therapist was so honest with me even if it was negative, and his handling of these things contributed greatly to the strength of our relationship. And i don't know why this behavior is so triggering, i mean it's so intertwined with anxiety and paranoia and sets your nervous system to hyperarousal. I think for me it might be related to the psychotic or psychotic-like episodes i had/have. I wonder if i had them as a child and was terrified and no one was there....

I know how triggering it can be when people around distort reality, it's horrible. No wonder you are so distressed about it. It makes total sense to me why this is so disturbing to you.

I think the really hard thing about this stuff is that - as other posters have pointed out - it's kind of a trap where you can end up feeling bad either way. If your T agrees with you without being careful enough about what they agree with and how, they can end up reinforcing your bad feelings about yourself. If they disagree with you, they can make you feel abandoned or invalidated. The balance comes from your T validating how you feel, and being with you in the feelings, while also recognising that it's not how you should have to feel, or how you should be treated.

Something from my own experience (and it is just that - mine - I'm not trying to define yours or tell you it's the same) is that I personally found that, whatever I believed about myself, I saw it reflected back from other people. I used to be so used to being rejected and not mattering, that was all I looked for. My T recently said: "You haven't had a whole lot of experience of mattering to people so you don't really know what that looks like." I don't mean it was all in my head, but I was so used to following that script (people reject me) that I didn't know how to get a new one.

I was forever assuming that people didn't like me, and expecting them not to like me, and focusing on how I felt rejected and awful, that I didn't know how to connect with people. What helped, I found, was to focus on them: did I like them, was I interested in what they were saying, what did I want to know about them. And the other very very hard thing I had to learn was to entertain the idea that if people were being nice they might mean it.

I know how difficult this sounds, but I found that I needed to matter more to myself and care more about myself, and other people picked up on that and reacted to it and treated me differently as a result. It really does have to start with loving yourself.

Care is a feeling, not an opinion! Your opinion of other people's feelings is. . .

We can tell some about other people by their actions. I am showing I care about you by responding to you and trying to comfort you!

To a certain extent we get to decide how much other people in our lives "care" because it is our definition that matters since it is our life. You could decide that people who only push the hug button in response to your post don't "really" care whereas wonderful people like myself who take the time to respond, do :-) But not everyone has a surfeit of plethoric words or the amount of time, I may have? We can't know about other people, can we. So, why not give them the benefit of the doubt?

Wanting people to give in the manner we like to receive is a two-edged sword. We can concentrate too much or too long on what we are or are not getting or how we do/do not feel, etc. and strangle ourselves on our own birth cord contemplating our own navels? Sometimes I get really tired and just say "to heck with it" and take what some other people I trust (like my T) says for "true" and then go look for that instead of fighting it.

Your therapist is really sweet, but the way.

I once saw a therapist at my psychiatrist's practice who did this too but with a higher degree of intensity, and I asked to be transferred to another therapist after a few sessions. Unlike your therapist, and my therapist, she didn't know me at all, so how could she say all of these things about me about which she knew nothing (e.g., i do a great job at work; i'm a great mother)??

Just realizing 10 plus years later why i had to quit seeing her!! Thanks for your thread.

HG, this could have been something I wrote about myself maybe a year ago. I still struggle a bit with being seen as 'less than' for having problems. Perhaps it's true in a way, but for different reasons - people think you think you're better than them if you hide your problems. This is part of the reason for self-disclosure in therapy - it evens the power imbalance a bit; makes you feel like you're in the presence of another human. Now, I'm not saying that you should spill your guts with everybody, just that it's normal and even expected that you be open about little things. For instance, I will share with my coworkers that my H is an arse at times (and I hear about their SOs in return), and I'll let them see my anger but I'll keep the details for closer relationships. I'm slowly learning that being able to share in this manner is actually very mature and adult.

I hear you when you say you feel people are being fake. Personally I've just had to reason my way out of this one. I experience people as being fake when they are having a normal emotional response because that's what I've been taught. I've also been taught that I'm being fake when I show emotion and that it's wrong and I shouldn't. Yeah, dismissing emotions doesn't tend to make one very likeable. It's just a distortion that you have to keep on yourself about. I know no other way of dealing with it than to just keep telling myself that it's not true.

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You know, this thread is sorta reminding me of what happened with my previous T. She was too validating of me in my first session. I couldn't handle it - dissociated at first and then later was hit with an avalanche of emotion that I had no idea how to deal with. I ended up so angry at her and I didn't even know why I was angry or even that I *was* angry. In retrospect it was a pretty trippy experience...

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Sorry you are feeling so lousy. From what you have said about your T before I imagine you will be able to talk this through?

I'm sorry your friends have left you out too. I know that feeling and It hurts.

I think the paranoia is definitely the root of it all. I have serious paranoia issues, to the point that when I was diagnosed with PTSD, I was so paranoid that my Pdoc thought I was bipolar and in a psychosis until I explained what caused it.

And my T doesn't know it bothers me because I haven't told her yet. I guess I should. But I don't think it's a good idea to tell her about the cutting. I know she would be disappointed in me for it.

That is very hard to do. Very, very hard to do.

I know I don't tell people these things, and it may just be that they are clueless as to how it affects me. I guess I feel like I'm being manipulative or dramatic when I tell people that something they did bothered me, so I don't speak up.

Yeah, that would bother me a LOT!

Wow, exactly. I see other people as being fake or exaggerating when they react emotionally to me because that's what I've been taught. I don't react to things emotionally at all (not where people can see them) for the same reason. I feel like I am being fake or manipulative. I don't feel like I "should" react that way, so I try to contain my reaction.

Interesting. I had something similar happen when my T told me that she felt like she wanted to protect me from something happening in my life, but knew she couldn't.

I need to. But I don't really want to. I feel so ashamed and embarrassed by it all.

What a lot of responses you've had, seems that there are a lot of people on here who care about you.

SoupDragon makes a good point

Good points here. Why is it so easy to say "the rest of the people in the world hate me" and so hard to say "I could be interpreting this the wrong way?" There are people who care about you, your T and your forum friends.

Yes, you're all right. I really appreciate that.

What if your therapist herself cared and would want to be there for you, then it's not necessarily a lie. I get what you are saying, but I disagree that a therapist would have to resort to lies. If she really thought no one at all cared she could just sit in supportive silence. I bet she doesn't sugar coat everything, right? Saying no one cares sounds like catastrophising, it's not a healthy mental pattern to just accept and let run on in your brain. Most likely someone does care, very few of us have literally no one who cares at all, and it's much healthier to recognize this than to let the negative depression voice run on and on.

My point is that she can't know whether anyone else cares, and she is wrong to make a blanket statement that they do. My experiences with people tell me that they do not care.

Another angle on this, that I just thought of right now, is that therapists often have confidence in themselves as being good judge of characters, and especially if they been seeing you for a while, they may imagine that how you relate to them in the session is typical of how you would relate to others outside the session. As a result they can sometimes get overconfident about making generalizations.

I think another part of it is also that they do care for their clients. I even think of it almost as parent-like. I can imagine a girl telling her mother that nobody wants to go out with her and all the girls talk behind her back, and mother says, "That's nonsense! You're so beautiful and such a lovely person, any boy should dream of having you as a girlfriend and any girl should be so lucky as to have you as a best friend!"

Granted therapists are more objective than a loving parent, but I do wonder if it's their reliance on their own judgment of the client and also their care and positive regard towards the client, that influences how they see the person and the person's potential for happiness.

As a result, if you claim that nobody cares for you or you are unlovable, a therapist that finds no reason in favor of this, is likely to either assume you are hanging with some unusual group of people or that you are simply in error.

Yes, I do think this is what is going on. She sees one thing, and bases everything off what she sees. The problem is that she knows me better and differently than others. And others don't seem to appreciate me in the ways she claims to.

Funny this reminded me of my own issues, because I have social anxiety and I'm a shy guy in fact, and one day I overheard some people talking about me and I realized that a couple of girl friends from work did not think very...highly of me. They thought I was aloof. Maybe conceited. It hurt my feelings. But then I realized that I had said no to a lot of parties. They were the ones always calling me. They were trying to be nice. But they didn't know me. Nor was I able to really share with them the reason why I could not go. Suddenly I understood why they saw me that way.

I think sometimes misunderstandings happen. Sometimes there is personality clashes. Obviously not everybody is in the therapist's position to know more about us and to try to remain neutral and open towards us. People come with their own biases. It's inevitable that conflicts arise. Perhaps even amongst people you know, you may see some of those differences between them and maybe they're not just an uncaring group but maybe there are shades in there and some more caring and some less. And maybe some of people you know also don't feel cared for at all (or enough). I said it's funny but I think it's equally sad.

Yeah, I'm sure this is part of it. I am terribly shy. I also have anxiety attacks in public places (although not in the same way you might with social anxiety), and I turn down a lot of parties because I only have so much energy being an introvert. I don't have boundless supplies of energy that can be expended for others, so I am rather picky where and how I spend that energy.