[Inner_Firefly]

Just wondering, how has talk therapy helped you? and is it OK to go to therapy if there is no defined goal?

I cannot define exactly how therapy helps me, but I always look forward to seeing T.

But I am not sure if I am sick enough to deserve therapy, it feels like a guilty pleasure having her warmth and support. I should be able to manage life on my own. But still I really love my T.

[stopdog]

I started going for a specific purpose but the woman was clueless about how to help. I have found a different use for her and so I go. I do not enjoy it, I don't have a relationship with the woman of any sort other than in most basic sense, amd I don't do it for what would seem to me to be way too touchy feely personal growth sort of stuff.

[NowhereUSA]

Since we have yet to find a way to fix my depression, my therapy is open ended. At this point, I just like hanging out with my T and it's nice to have an hour to talk all about me and ***** about whatever I want. I think even if we fixed my depression, I'd still go because damn it's nice.

I think it should have a purpose, but I don't think that's the same as having a goal.

[Victoria'smom]

I'm one for goals. My goal is to learn how to live with my symptoms (with as little meds as possible).

[ThisWayOut]

I have goals for this specific stint in therapy with this therapist, but other therapy has been more open-ended. At times I have simply gone for "support" getting through the days.

[SubliminalThoughts]

Therapy has helped me in certain ways like having a routine. But it has also made me worse in others. All the extra things I need to do like exposure therapy and the fact that I have not reached any goal in five months of therapy has caused me a massive amount of stress. I feel so pressured that its making me occasionally sick. I do think that its OK to go to therapy if theres no goal. You can go there for support or growth.

I think if you have the money and time you should be able to just go there and sit if you want. Most don't have that luxury and insurance pushes for goals and endings and diagnoses and on and on. I don't know. I go back and forth on this issue. There are so many reasons people go to therapy. Some need/ want the relationship. Some need and want goals. Some want someone to listen to them. I don't know. It's confusing to me.

[ragsnfeathers]

I didn't answer the poll because I'm in between a couple of the choices at the moment but the part of the question I'm interested in is, how do you know if it's helpful.

[Ididitmyway]

I think, your needs define your goals. Once you are clear on what needs of yours your therapy fulfills, these are your goals. I really don't see the difference. If you are in therapy for support, then getting support from a T is your goal. If you are for personal growth, then personal growth is your goal. If you want symptoms reduction - that is your goal. Whatever it is, it is crucial to have a conversation with T about it at the very beginning of therapy, because otherwise you may find yourself in the situation when you and your T have different goals for you, and that situation is potentially harmful.

A side note on personal growth: this is so broad and so vague that unless it's specified, you and T may have different ideas about it. Personal growth may be happening in thousands of different directions simultaneously and there could be thousands of different goals as we move forward. Personal growth is not something abstract. It's happening here and now, and at each given moment we are engaged in different life situations that require us to develop different aspects of ourselves. I, personally, wouldn't be willing to spend big bucks and a lot of time for some abstract growth. At each specific period of my life I have a specific task to complete and this specific task would be my therapy goal for this particular time. I've also learned from experience that when growth is an abstract word, no growth takes place.

[ragsnfeathers]

This is really useful.

There is no "must" one way or another. Some people need goals, and for them, goals are necessary. Others go to therapy as a kind of ongoing maintenance. Some need the relationship/attachment, others don't.

As for knowing that it is helpful, that is something nobody else can judge for you. In this forum it is so easy to read about what others do, and think that that's the Paris meter which your own therapy should emulate. And that has been very unhelpful for me.

[Partless]

Originally Posted by Inner_Firefly

Just wondering, how has talk therapy helped you? and is it OK to go to therapy if there is no defined goal?

I cannot define exactly how therapy helps me, but I always look forward to seeing T.

But I am not sure if I am sick enough to deserve therapy, it feels like a guilty pleasure having her warmth and support. I should be able to manage life on my own. But still I really love my T.

It's not okay to go for therapy if there is no defined goal. It's harmful for client and a waste of money, and also unethical for therapist.

Edit: just to be clear, by goal I mean something as simple as finding a solution to handle anxiety better or to come to terms with death of someone or to start dating again. To reach those specific goals, there are many smaller goals that will need to be achieved. But this is a professional relationship and a paid service and needs to have goals and structure of some kind. It's not like dropping by a friend's home for a cup of coffee cause she's on the way to your gym. If you go for therapy, figure out why, make sure you and your therapist are on the same page, and make sure you know when the goal is achieved, and check your progress with therapist on some sort of regular basis. Otherwise you spend 50,000 dollars and see a therapist over several years and the only goal achieved is the therapist getting rich off you!

I can't say I ever had defined goals in my therapy, certainly not that I ever sat down and planned out with my therapist. I went to therapy to deal with whatever issues came up as life happened. I am pretty certain my therapists had a clearer vision than I did of what goals I needed to achieve. Whatever the case, it worked well for me and I'm much the better for it.

Originally Posted by Partless

It's not okay to go for therapy if there is no defined goal. It's harmful for client and a waste of money, and also unethical for therapist.

Edit: just to be clear, by goal I mean something as simple as finding a solution to handle anxiety better or to come to terms with death of someone or to start dating again. To reach those specific goals, there are many smaller goals that will need to be achieved. But this is a professional relationship and a paid service and needs to have goals and structure of some kind. It's not like dropping by a friend's home for a cup of coffee cause she's on the way to your gym. If you go for therapy, figure out why, make sure you and your therapist are on the same page, and make sure you know when the goal is achieved, and check your progress with therapist on some sort of regular basis. Otherwise you spend 50,000 dollars and see a therapist over several years and the only goal achieved is the therapist getting rich off you!

It seems that you are claiming that this is generally true for all therapy. If that's in fact what you are saying, I would like to respectfully disagree, because it certainly does not apply to me, nor does it apply to some other people who have weighed in on this thread, and thus it is not a general truth.

If I interpret you correctly, you need goals, you want to make sure that you know why you go to therapy, and you would not like it if you weren't reasonably certain that you and your therapist are in agreement about your goals. None of which is strange - but none of it is a requirement for therapy to be successful for other people, who may have different needs and wishes.

[Partless]

People can use therapy any way they like. I'm just saying what ethical therapy is about, a professional paid service provided to help people reach some personal goal that has to do with their emotions and relations with others.

There is always a purpose to going for therapy, or else people wouldn't. I'm just saying let's make that purpose conscious so you don't waste your money or get harmed by an unethical therapist. And it's fine with me if you disagree. It's your money, it's your time, you can do whatever you like.

Of course therapy has to have a purpose, or we wouldn't go. But that is not the same as requiring that we know what it is we want to achieve, or that we have quantifiable goals. But this is by necessity an abstract discussion, unless I start talking about why I am in therapy, which is irrelevant and uninteresting.

All I am saying is that it is 100% fine for some people to go to therapy without knowing what it is they need to work towards, and without having a specificgoal in mind, and without discussing with their therapist if that goal has been met or not. It is not a waste of time or money if the therapy is effective. That therapy needs to be ethical goes without saying, but I do not believe that any ethical codes specify that the therapist has to demand of the client that they (the client) should know what it is they need from therapy. And I have been in therapy with a very expensive therapist who kept talking about my goals and whether they were met. That was invalidating, humiliating, and a huge waste of my time and money. I wouldn't call it unethical, but it certainly wasn't good therapy.

[Partless]

Mastodon, I have a feeling we are approaching this from two different angles but that we are not in disagreement to the extent that I thought we were (after your earlier post). We both want what's good for the client, protect them from harm, and make sure they get the most out of therapy.

There can be a use and purpose to therapy without having goals. Mine asked about goals during my first appointment, but then when she got a handle on things, she dropped that because it just doesn't fit with my needs or purpose for therapy.

[scorpiosis37]

I agree with licketysplit. My therapy certainly has a purpose and benefits me significantly, but the idea of "goals" just does not fit for me. You do not need to have concrete goals in order for therapy to be ethical.

I chose the option: "I think therapy is about learning from the ongoing relationship between the T and client, which evolves and brings new insights."

For me, therapy is all about the relationship with my T. My T offers support, validation, care, and consistency, which is exactly what I need. All I need my T to do is to listen and engage with me. This benefits me enormously, but I do not consider it to be a "goal." It is also not something that can be objectively measured or achieved. I'm not in therapy in order to make concrete changes or obtain an X, Y, Z. I just want a supportive space to share, reflect, and feel heard. I will decide if and when I no longer want that. For me, the goal is not to "outgrow" therapy in any particular timeframe. My insurance pays for it and I enjoy it and find it helpful, so there is no impetus to stop going. Someday, if I no longer find it useful, then I will stop going.

I voted that therapy can have evolving goals but I also could see there being no specific goal at all. I myself have several issues that I want to take up with my T. It could take years before they are resolved or grow to the level where I have control over it. People go for all kinds of reasons and some is for self-growth. I don't look at therapy as a competition where someone wins a trophy for having reached their goal to jump out of an airplane (parachuting) brought on by a fear of heights. That's just an example I made up only to relay that I don't see myself as a judge as to why anyone seeks therapy.

[Partless]

Originally Posted by scorpiosis37

I agree with licketysplit. My therapy certainly has a purpose and benefits me significantly, but the idea of "goals" just does not fit for me. You do not need to have concrete goals in order for therapy to be ethical.

I chose the option: "I think therapy is about learning from the ongoing relationship between the T and client, which evolves and brings new insights."

For me, therapy is all about the relationship with my T. My T offers support, validation, care, and consistency, which is exactly what I need. All I need my T to do is to listen and engage with me. This benefits me enormously, but I do not consider it to be a "goal." It is also not something that can be objectively measured or achieved. I'm not in therapy in order to make concrete changes or obtain an X, Y, Z. I just want a supportive space to share, reflect, and feel heard. I will decide if and when I no longer want that. For me, the goal is not to "outgrow" therapy in any particular timeframe. My insurance pays for it and I enjoy it and find it helpful, so there is no impetus to stop going. Someday, if I no longer find it useful, then I will stop going.

I'm replying to your post because you referenced ethical therapist and I assume that was in reply my earlier post and I want to say that was about people who are not self-aware and are taken for a ride by their therapist. So having goals ground people (not get lost in psychobabble and craziness of therapy) and helps give therapy direction. Unethical therapist take advantage of people with no goals because progress doesn't matter, there are no goals to be met, and the therapist is the authority who decides things and can justify dragging therapy forever easily.

You, on the other hand, know why you going in there and getting whatever it is that you're getting out of therapy. That makes a difference.

You're going to get validation and have space to be able to share and feel heard, but you have no plans about ever ending therapy or as you say "outgrowing" it, have no money problems with therapy, and it would not matter if you stayed in therapy your whole life because there is no particular goal you're trying to achieve and no time limit to worry about.

It seems to me that for you it's more about feeling satisfied about having your various needs met at present and getting pleasure and joy out of the experience, and presumably when you no longer feel good after having gone for therapy, that's when you will end it. So as I said you know what you're doing and the therapist can't be taking advantage of a self aware person.

What happens when you're seeing a therapist for the attachment and the warm fuzzy feelings (I don't mean this disrespectfully. I do understand that we need this in our lives. I just couldn't think of any other way to put it) and you have no goals and one day the therapist starts wondering where the therapy is going? What if they talk to a supervisor and they decide therapy isn't really going anywhere and there's no justification for continuing it? Maybe it isn't unethical, but are there many therapists who will just see someone who wants the relationship and nothing more? Or is that what we're talking about?

What about insurance companies? They want to see progress and they don't want to pay indefinitely for therapy. What if they do a review and decide the therapy isn't helping and they won't pay anymore? I can see that self pay has advantages, but some people can't do that and they rely on insurance companies.

I do think the relationship is important, but is it enough to keep going on and on? Is it unreasonable for the therapist and client to believe that one day therapy will end somehow? It can't just go on and on can it?

I don't know. I can see many different angles to "does therapy have to have goals" and I'm just not sure what is okay, so to speak. It's VERY, VERY confusing to me.

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by puzzle_bug1987

What happens when you're seeing a therapist for the attachment and the warm fuzzy feelings (I don't mean this disrespectfully. I do understand that we need this in our lives. I just couldn't think of any other way to put it) and you have no goals and one day the therapist starts wondering where the therapy is going? What if they talk to a supervisor and they decide therapy isn't really going anywhere and there's no justification for continuing it? Maybe it isn't unethical, but are there many therapists who will just see someone who wants the relationship and nothing more? Or is that what we're talking about?

What about insurance companies? They want to see progress and they don't want to pay indefinitely for therapy. What if they do a review and decide the therapy isn't helping and they won't pay anymore? I can see that self pay has advantages, but some people can't do that and they rely on insurance companies.

I do think the relationship is important, but is it enough to keep going on and on? Is it unreasonable for the therapist and client to believe that one day therapy will end somehow? It can't just go on and on can it?

I don't know. I can see many different angles to "does therapy have to have goals" and I'm just not sure what is okay, so to speak. It's VERY, VERY confusing to me.

There are a lot of benefits to the therapy relationship that may not be explicitly spelled out here. It's not just about the "warm" feelings of the relationship-- it's how the relationship is helpful and extends to the client's life outside of therapy. It's different for everyone but, for me, it's a repairative experience for what I did not have as a child. Therapy is the first time I have ever experienced support or unconditional positive regard-- where the other person doesn't need/want anything from me. Receiving that from T has "filled" some of the void that I have had my whole life because I never had a mom or caregiver who loved me or took care of me or was "in my corner." Receiving that in therapy has made me more grounded, made me more confident, made me calmer, made me happier, and me choose to become more emotionally intimate with the people in my RL. These are all benefits of therapy, but they were never goals that I set out to accomplish. They were not "problems" before; but they are benefits I enjoy. My T thinks therapy has been-- and still is-- very beneficial for me. She would not "kick me out" just because I am not struggling with specific problems that need fixing. She understands the benefits of this kind of therapy.

I cannot speak to other people's insurance or therapy practices but, for me, my insurance does not require me to have "goals" or demonstrate tangible "progress." My T is also in private practice and, therefore, does not have a supervisor.

I had a really horrible childhood myself and I thought I had all those things with my first therapist, but it ended very badly. I understand what you're saying, but I also thought he would never "kick me out" and he did. I had ALL of that, I thought. The support, the unconditional regard and I thought I was getting benefits from it, but in the end it was horribly traumatic. It was so damaging. I know everyone doesn't experience this, but I also never thought it would end that way. I envisioned a "good" ending where I could go back if I needed, but I wouldn't really need to that often. I never dreamed it would end so badly. Do you think your insurance will pay indefinitely? I think that is good if it will. I don't know that many will.