[rainbow8]

Trigger warning for sexual content, maybe abuse

I had my session today and we talked about my sexual issues. I was more honest with her than I've ever been before. I've never been able to accept what my Ts have told me about my brother's behavior. I didn't think it was abuse when he used to get me to touch him sexually. We were kids but he's 5 years older than me. When he was an older teen, he spied on me in the shower, but I didn't find that out until some years after the fact.

I told my T today that when I think about sex I think "ick". She said that word and feeling like that are indicative of abuse. I always thought he was just a pest when I was little though I think the spying on me was definitely abuse. T wants me to at least consider that the " playing " with my brother could have caused my "ick" response as an adult. She says because I didn't want to play with him
but he, at least once, took my hand and put it where he wanted. My T says even if it was just once, it could affect me. Also, 5 years age difference is the borderline between play and abuse. I always thought of it as a game I didn't want to play, and it was only touching, anyway. Not a big deal. But my T has always thought it was a big deal, and now that I used the word "ick", and told her some other things, she's more convinced. I told her I'll accept that she may be right after all. What do you think?

I think your T is right.

[Lauliza]

I agree that your T is right.

[BayBrony]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Trigger warning for sexual content, maybe abuse

I had my session today and we talked about my sexual issues. I was more honest with her than I've ever been before. I've never been able to accept what my Ts have told me about my brother's behavior. I didn't think it was abuse when he used to get me to touch him sexually. We were kids but he's 5 years older than me. When he was an older teen, he spied on me in the shower, but I didn't find that out until some years after the fact.

I told my T today that when I think about sex I think "ick". She said that word and feeling like that are indicative of abuse. I always thought he was just a pest when I was little though I think the spying on me was definitely abuse. T wants me to at least consider that the " playing " with my brother could have caused my "ick" response as an adult. She says because I didn't want to play with him
but he, at least once, took my hand and put it where he wanted. My T says even if it was just once, it could affect me. Also, 5 years age difference is the borderline between play and abuse. I always thought of it as a game I didn't want to play, and it was only touching, anyway. Not a big deal. But my T has always thought it was a big deal, and now that I used the word "ick", and told her some other things, she's more convinced. I told her I'll accept that she may be right after all. What do you think?

I want to preface this by saying that NO MATTER WHAT causes the "ick" response what your brother did was very very very wrong. ....
Your T may be right About it being about your brother.
But you also seem to have issues around your sexual orientation. I know for me as a kid,teen, and now as an adult straight sex ALWAYS makes me go " ick"...human male genitals, chest hair, guy butts ALL make me go "iick". Women definitely don't. Not even a little. As a teen trying to be straight I HATED even making out. My youth group taught abstinence and I was like "who would even want to do that in the first place????" It was gross. And the first time I kissed a girl....All the ruckus about sex finally made sense. Fireworks. ..dizzy longing...totally twitterpated....
So there could be more than one explanation

[JaneTennison1]

Your T does not seem wrong. I also agree about sexuality. I had a big ick around all men and when I worked out I like women it all just fit. No ick anymore.

[unaluna]

My brother is a little over 4 years older than i am, but he was five years ahead of me in school. There is no way we were "playmates". And i was big for my age. But that doesnt stretch over that age gap. I agree with your t.

[stopdog]

Rainbow - have you ever read a book by Susan Clancy called the Trauma Myth?
It was the book that put my csa (and I still am uncertain about the a - Clancy is not and would call it a definitely) into some perspective about there being a lot of people who had my response to it.

She is not arguing that csa is not traumatic - but that it is not always traumatic in the ways people talk about. It was the first time I felt understood.

[BayBrony]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Rainbow - have you ever read a book by Susan Clancy called the Trauma Myth?
It was the book that put my csa (and I still am uncertain about the a - Clancy is not and would call it a definitely) into some perspective about there being a lot of people who had my response to it.

She is not arguing that csa is not traumatic - but that it is not always traumatic in the ways people talk about. It was the first time I felt understood.

Would you be willing to elaborate? ? Traumatic in what different way?

My T and I haven't agreed on what to call what my mom did to me ie csa vs physical. ..iit involved trying to cleanse the "curse" of my femaleness and was painful and confusing...bbut did involve my genitals....

But i know it affected me in terms of my own relationship with my body but did not affect my Feelings about sex or other women's bodies. I've insisted to my T that it wasn't "tthat bad" because i enjoy seX even though my relationship with my own body is tortured, I've never had a gyn exam etc...

[pbutton]

The Trauma Myth seemed to be saying that CSA is often not experienced as traumatic at the time. A lot of the time it is presented as a game or affection. A lot of the victims stated that their main feeling at the time was one of confusion. The sexual component of it wasn't apparent to them until years later, and when that realization hit, the people often felt guilt for their lack of understanding of what was happening, shame for finding parts of the experience pleasurable, or shame for not having said no. The trauma comes from feeling like the "only" person who didn't experience CSA as terrifying and traumatic; for being the "one" kid who went along with it, when the general population seems to view it as something that horrifies and frightens children as it is happening.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by pbutton

The Trauma Myth seemed to be saying that CSA is often not experienced as traumatic at the time. A lot of the time it is presented as a game or affection. A lot of the victims stated that their main feeling at the time was one of confusion. The sexual component of it wasn't apparent to them until years later, and when that realization hit, the people often felt guilt for their lack of understanding of what was happening, shame for finding parts of the experience pleasurable, or shame for not having said no. The trauma comes from feeling like the "only" person who didn't experience CSA as terrifying and traumatic; for being the "one" kid who went along with it, when the general population seems to view it as something that horrifies and frightens children as it is happening.

I agree with most of this - except the trauma part is not necessarily that narrow or just defined to feeling like the only person who did not experience csa as terrifying at the time - in how I read her work. It can be, and it was a part for me, but I did not read that as being Clancy's entire point.

[Rive.]

I also think your T is right.

It is a big deal and what your brother did was wrong. You were still 5 years younger (i.e. more innocent and vulnerable) than him. Even though you might not have been aware or able to cognitively/emotionally process what happened at the time, I believe the repercussions were felt and might manifest (or might have) subsequently, as a mature adult.

Not saying this is the sole reason for your 'ick' response later on but it's plausible that it might certainly have contributed towards such a reaction...

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by lolagrace

I think your T is right.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Lauliza

I agree that your T is right.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by BayBrony

I want to preface this by saying that NO MATTER WHAT causes the "ick" response what your brother did was very very very wrong. ....
Your T may be right About it being about your brother.
But you also seem to have issues around your sexual orientation. I know for me as a kid,teen, and now as an adult straight sex ALWAYS makes me go " ick"...human male genitals, chest hair, guy butts ALL make me go "iick". Women definitely don't. Not even a little. As a teen trying to be straight I HATED even making out. My youth group taught abstinence and I was like "who would even want to do that in the first place????" It was gross. And the first time I kissed a girl....All the ruckus about sex finally made sense. Fireworks. ..dizzy longing...totally twitterpated....
So there could be more than one explanation

BayBrony: I must be in denial. Why was it so wrong? We were only 2 kids in the family and he was probably experimenting with his sexuality. He was around 9 and I was 4. The spying when we were older was abusive even though I didn't know it was happening. I feel violated. I
never liked kissing at all but I don't think I'd like kissing a woman either. That also gives me an ick feeling. I missed out on an important part of life and that's kind of sad. I mean with another person, emotional and physical together. I can enjoy it by myself though.

Originally Posted by JaneTennison1

Your T does not seem wrong. I also agree about sexuality. I had a big ick around all men and when I worked out I like women it all just fit. No ick anymore.

Well, maybe that would have worked for me, but more likely I needed therapy years ago, and my H and I should have gone to a sex T maybe.

Originally Posted by hankster

My brother is a little over 4 years older than i am, but he was five years ahead of me in school. There is no way we were "playmates". And i was big for my age. But that doesnt stretch over that age gap. I agree with your t.

But my brother and I were playmates! He teased me a lot but we played together too.

Originally Posted by stopdog

Rainbow - have you ever read a book by Susan Clancy called the Trauma Myth?
It was the book that put my csa (and I still am uncertain about the a - Clancy is not and would call it a definitely) into some perspective about there being a lot of people who had my response to it.

She is not arguing that csa is not traumatic - but that it is not always traumatic in the ways people talk about. It was the first time I felt understood.

Thank you! I will try to get that book. I never heard of it before.

Originally Posted by BayBrony

Would you be willing to elaborate? ? Traumatic in what different way?

My T and I haven't agreed on what to call what my mom did to me ie csa vs physical. ..iit involved trying to cleanse the "curse" of my femaleness and was painful and confusing...bbut did involve my genitals....

But i know it affected me in terms of my own relationship with my body but did not affect my Feelings about sex or other women's bodies. I've insisted to my T that it wasn't "tthat bad" because i enjoy seX even though my relationship with my own body is tortured, I've never had a gyn exam etc...

I would for sure call that abuse though your Mom may have thought it was for physical or spiritual reasons.

Originally Posted by pbutton

The Trauma Myth seemed to be saying that CSA is often not experienced as traumatic at the time. A lot of the time it is presented as a game or affection. A lot of the victims stated that their main feeling at the time was one of confusion. The sexual component of it wasn't apparent to them until years later, and when that realization hit, the people often felt guilt for their lack of understanding of what was happening, shame for finding parts of the experience pleasurable, or shame for not having said no. The trauma comes from feeling like the "only" person who didn't experience CSA as terrifying and traumatic; for being the "one" kid who went along with it, when the general population seems to view it as something that horrifies and frightens children as it is happening.

Thanks! Yes, that's how I felt. I never thought my brother's playing with me was sexual; I just thought he was a pest and I didn't like to see him naked as much as he liked to be.

[rainbow8]

I have to process these opinions along with what my T thinks. I'm feeling sorry for myself. But I have a lot to be grateful for. Sex isn't everything.

[Whiteroses02]

Originally Posted by pbutton

The Trauma Myth seemed to be saying that CSA is often not experienced as traumatic at the time. A lot of the time it is presented as a game or affection. A lot of the victims stated that their main feeling at the time was one of confusion. The sexual component of it wasn't apparent to them until years later, and when that realization hit, the people often felt guilt for their lack of understanding of what was happening, shame for finding parts of the experience pleasurable, or shame for not having said no. The trauma comes from feeling like the "only" person who didn't experience CSA as terrifying and traumatic; for being the "one" kid who went along with it, when the general population seems to view it as something that horrifies and frightens children as it is happening.

This whole concept was what gave me the courage to open up for the first time ever. I've only told my therapist, but it was huge because i vowed to not ever release my history. For me, I was the only person to think and I believed I was at fault because I didn't say no, I even participated in the trauma. I didn't know it was not ok until later and it was masked in the guise of games. I always thought I was such a freak and I'm learning to believe that maybe I'm not the freak I really thought I was. It was revolutionary to discover there was many others experiencing the same emotions and feeling as alone as I do.

[unaluna]

When i was 10, i didnt want to play with my 7 year old girl cousin who was 2 years behind me in school because i felt she was still a baby. Its true my parents were pushing me to grow up too fast, and hers infantilized her, but still.

[BayBrony]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I have to process these opinions along with what my T thinks. I'm feeling sorry for myself. But I have a lot to be grateful for. Sex isn't everything.

I just wanted to add from my T, that interactions between siblings also often. Reflect a greater culture within the family. For me the most traumatic physical abuse came from my same age twin brother. He was vicious and stronger than me and while my mom worked long hours and so could only victimize me so much my brother had access to me 24 / 7. He made my life a true hell. I could not do anything in my own house without being beaten, burned, kicked, thrown, punched etc....hHe did this in front of my mom and was encouraged. I made him hit me because I was ugly and unlovable according to her....iI have always felt incredible shame over it. He was the same age as me. I should have fought back. ..bbut iM a healer. The only time I ever punched some one was when one of my brothers friends attempted to rape me and I lost it . I just should have done something. But my T has insisted that my experience with my brother was only an extension of the screwed up dynamics in my entire family.

So it may not be just what your brother did but Your entire family culture that may have created shame etc

[scorpiosis37]

I partially agree and partially disagree with what your T said.

I agree with her that what your brother did was wrong. He was older than you, you didn't want to engage in the touch, and him putting your hand "there" was not okay.

That said, I don't necessarily think that what happened with your brother is the reason (or the only reason) for the "ick" feeling you have towards sex. I think baybrony may be right that it is linked up to some extent with your sexual orientation. You feel shame around your sexual feelings (at least towards women)-- and that must play a role in how you feel about sex more broadly. In addition to that, from what you've shared about your family's values and attitudes towards sex over the years, I think the biggest reason you have an "ick" feeling about sex may be that your family told you sex was wrong, gross, shameful, etc-- and you believed them. I think that's fairly common. A lot of people have been told sex is "bad" or "ick"-- and a lot of people (including people who have never been abused) continue to think that or feel that. There are definitely times I think sex is "ick" too-- because that is what I was taught too and I've internalized it! I think it has as much to do with cultural and familial attitudes as it does with personal experiences.

[BayBrony]

Originally Posted by BayBrony

I just wanted to add from my T, that interactions between siblings also often. Reflect a greater culture within the family. For me the most traumatic physical abuse came from my same age twin brother. He was vicious and stronger than me and while my mom worked long hours and so could only victimize me so much my brother had access to me 24 / 7. He made my life a true hell. I could not do anything in my own house without being beaten, burned, kicked, thrown, punched etc....hHe did this in front of my mom and was encouraged. I made him hit me because I was ugly and unlovable according to her....iI have always felt incredible shame over it. He was the same age as me. I should have fought back. ..bbut iM a healer. The only time I ever punched some one was when one of my brothers friends attempted to rape me and I lost it . I just should have done something. But my T has insisted that my experience with my brother was only an extension of the screwed up dynamics in my entire family.

So it may not be just what your brother did but Your entire family culture that may have created shame etc

My brother finally stopped when we were 14. He was weightlifting and could already bench over 200 lbs . He left huge bruises all over me and one if his friends said something. He was shamed by his friends thankfully and never laid a hand on me again. I still hate myself for letting him treat me that way

I'm not sure 'ick' is in itself is an indication of SA

[anilam]

What your brother did was wrong but you probably know that, don't you? Would it be fine/just a game if your daughter was in that same situation? I highly doubt so.
You don't need to defend him, I still believe he likes/cares about you deeply and didn't mean to harm you in any way. He probably didn't know any better then (9yr old is way too young). I do wonder why he did it- most kids reenact what they experienced. Plus family environment plays a huge role in this too... BTW who told you he was spying on you when you were teens? Was he apologizing?

As far as the influence it did have on your life- nobody can tell except you. People react differently- generally these kind of experiences can impact your body/self image, cause trust issues... It is stg worth discussing with your T but I would caution against using it as generalized explanation. It might explain your feelings it might not. Try to keep an open mind.

I think your T is right about you and your brother. Like some of the other posters, I don't think that an "ick" reaction has to indicate past abuse, though. (And I suspect that this is a minority opinion, but so what if somebody thinks sex is icky? It is not such a big deal. It is an area where I think many Ts seem pretty biased, as if being able to enjoy sex is crucial - I have been arguing with my T about this for two years...)

[Rive.]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I have to process these opinions along with what my T thinks. I'm feeling sorry for myself. But I have a lot to be grateful for. Sex isn't everything.

Exactly, sex isn't everything. There are other ways to get one's needs (emotional or otherwise) met & what works for one (or even for the majority) doesn't necessarily mean it is 'right' or the ideal to strive towards. There are alternative ways of thinking and/or of living.

Sorry, I hope I make sense. But hugs to you, rainbow. That is a lot to process.

[SoupDragon]

I have a similar struggle Rainbow, in accepting what happened to me was wrong.

Older brother's / sister's can use their age against their younger siblings in many ways. I hear my own children arguing and my older son, "teasing" his younger brother, I have a cautious listening ear as I believe that this is part of learning for them, but always intervene when it starts to feel that my youngest son is not able to protect or stand up for himself (just to clarify, there is not sexual component to this).

So when an older sibling, but still a child, uses their age as power against a younger child in a sexual way, I struggle to accept that the older child should be deemed to have a thorough understanding of what they are doing and what the potential impact may be.

This does not make it "right", or not abusive to the younger child, but I see a difference between this and abuse that may happen between an adult and a child, or a much older sibling and a child.

The impact on the younger child may not be any different, but I am not sure that the older child can be held to account in the way that an adult would be.

The confusion for me therefore, is how I can accept that my brother should have known better, when he himself was a child, developing / exploring. I can't "blame" him in the same way I can blame adults.

Therefore I am left with the same feelings about the experience as being unwanted / unpleasant, but no-one to feel angry at. So maybe for me this is why I minimise it and find it hard to accept as abuse.

[RedSun]

I think your t has a really valid point.
And, your brother was 9 and also a young child. So, definitely his actions could be experienced as abuse by you, whilst not being intended as abuse if that makes sense?
There's some really good points about sexuality on here. Maybe your feelings about sex now come from just too much negative stuff around it, of which the abuse from your brother is a component, but not necessarily all or the only cause?

Also, my kids have a 4.5 year gap. They played, as playmates, together. They had a really good relationship. I agree with the potential of a wider family dynamic being in play if kids are abusive to each other.

I hope you can work through everything with your T in time, and get somewhere where you feel okay.
Xxxx

[divine1966]

I agree with your t. It certainly could effect you. Spying on a sister might not be that unusual, but touching privates especially if he forced you, is abuse imho and could influence you negatively

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