Do you agree with my T about my brother?

I will start out by saying, yes, I agree with your T, but...
I understand where you are coming from. For me it was my cousin who was barely 3 years older. He did use his age as power over me, as well as threats and intimidation. It started young. I was 7 or 8, and he was 10 or 11, then continued until I was 13.
When I was finally able to tell my t the story, she tried to make me say out loud that I was a "victim". I refused at first. I felt that I wasn't because I participated, the touching felt good, and I was ashamed that I didn't stop him. I wasn't able to stop it, but I always thought I should have anyway. I always thought there was an out and I never took it.

I had a fear of boys, men, any males. Including my Dad. I started to think that was the only thing that guys wanted girls for. So even in high school and college I had a very difficult time talking with "boys" and never had guy friends. Still struggle when I meet new people who are men, but I usually manage push past it.

Even if this whole thing started as two young kids playing or experimenting (which the very first encounter was), it became something else much more damaging. I was a victim. I can say it now.
I don't hate my cousin anymore. I don't blame myself anymore.

It may take you a while to process all of what you went through. Take all the time you need.

We have been thought in my t training that if the age difference is 4 to 5 years between siblings it is considered exploratory sexuality but I am still confused about this and not sure I quite agree. Abuse is abuse is someone doesn't consent. You didn't consent to touching your brother and weren't aware of him spying on you in the Shower rainbow.
Of course you don't want to believe what happened because the little girl in you still believe it was innocent play and you prefer to think there is something wrong with you, there isn't ... You have been wronged and are now doubting yourself.
Did you think it was wrong when it was happening? I ask because this feeling has perhaps become embedded in your psyche and unknown to you is expressed as your ick feeling around sex. It is a felt sense. This is a real feeling and it's not wrong.


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Remember also that just because something WAS more or less just playing doesn't make it non traumatic for both players. My cousin ( 1 yr older) shut me in the trunk of a car when I was about 6 . She was playing and thought it was a funny joke. I nearly went insane in the 60 seconds it took an adult to get me out... even if your brother thought it was a game that doesn't mean you experienced it as a game or play.

I didn't say that rainbow experienced it as a game, the little girl part of her does and that's why sometimes she can't believe what happened. Only Rainbow can say how she experienced it. You experienced trauma from your cousin but someone else might not have. This is why only we can say how we felt and are feeling.


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I have a big "ick" around sex and it's probably the result of the Puritanical attitudes my parents had about the subject, combined with OCD. I can enjoy masturbation (a little, nothing like what I've heard described as the intensity of sex) but I've never enjoyed sex with another person.

There is also the possibility I was a victim of CSA, a couple clues for that, but after many years of therapy it hasn't surfaced as a major issue. I believe it plays only a minor role in my psyche compared to family attitudes and OCD.

Mike

rainbow, I am sorry this happened to you. I don't know if your therapist is right, because I have the ick factor too, but not because of sexual abuse. It is how my parents dealt with sexuality in general, they made me think something was wrong with it. Body parts were meant to not be touched, hidden, etc. Also, when I was thirteen I overheard a portion of a sexual encounter between the parents, double ick – ick, ick.

A question to you rainbow, rhetorical only. Were you able to tell your parents or another adult that kind of play, genital touching you didn't like? Or did you possibly know at that young age, what your brother was doing was taboo – the shame game? Many kids (not all) tattle on siblings and other children, when something is done to them that they don't like, especially at the age of four. Who was there for you rainbow? I think that could be where the damage was done. I also believe, that how one had to deal with those early sexual issues, can play a part on our gender preference and/or confusion. I do understand that most will not agree with my last statement.

Gook luck in your healing journey, rain.

In regards to the sexual orientation vs abuse "ick" There's the "ick" of 'I don't prefer that (gender)' and then there's the "ick" of abuse. For me it felt very different.

Like OP, I've felt both. An older neighborhood boy did something similar to me when I was young. Although I did have the self-agency and consciousness at the time to know a)I didn't like it and b) make it stop (I told him to go away and stopped hanging out with him) It took a few years for me to realize that what happened to me was actually sexual abuse. My body felt the realization before my mind did. It was something instinctual.

And For years into my teenager and young adulthood years I had a visceral, squeamish reaction to any sex scenes on tv or even people discussing it. I do think the CSA delayed my own understanding and exploration of sexuality in general.

Plenty of Gay people might grow up feeling "ick" about sex with the opposite gender but there's a level of general curiosity and exploration (or boredom) and social conditioning that encourages us to at least experiment with typical stuff (kissing, play, etc) around the opposite sex that they're allowed to engage in in order to figure things out just like heteros do.

Yet, for (some) people with CSA - that curious side of things can be laden with a confused sense of disgust, fear, shame, etc. that takes a while to weed out in order to get to one's own natural feelings. CSA might influence, inform, but doesn't define or limit our explorations of sexuality. (in my opinion.)

Thank you, Rive. Everyone seems to think what my brother did was wrong. He did other things I know are wrong, like shooting rubber bands at me and putting me in a closet, then throwing lit matches at the door. They probably went out in the air but it scared me, and I'm still afraid of fire. The sex play seems innocent to me.

I'm glad you are healing and were helped by the book's concepts. We often think we're alone with something and feel relief to discover we're not!

No one else in my family was the slightest abusive. I didn't tell my parents about the touching, but I know I always complained about the other hurtful things he did. We got along pretty well in spite of all that, and have a good relationship today. I do agree that the shame about my body and sexuality comes partially from my family attitude of being hush hush about it. It also comes from other things.

[QUOTE=scorpiosis37;4467271]I partially agree and partially disagree with what your T said.

I agree with her that what your brother did was wrong. He was older than you, you didn't want to engage in the touch, and him putting your hand "there" was not okay.

That said, I don't necessarily think that what happened with your brother is the reason (or the only reason) for the "ick" feeling you have towards sex. I think baybrony may be right that it is linked up to some extent with your sexual orientation. You feel shame around your sexual feelings (at least towards women)-- and that must play a role in how you feel about sex more broadly. In addition to that, from what you've shared about your family's values and attitudes towards sex over the years, I think the biggest reason you have an "ick" feeling about sex may be that your family told you sex was wrong, gross, shameful, etc-- and you believed them. I think that's fairly common. A lot of people have been told sex is "bad" or "ick"-- and a lot of people (including people who have never been abused) continue to think that or feel that. There are definitely times I think sex is "ick" too-- because that is what I was taught too and I've internalized it! I think it has as much to do with cultural and familial attitudes as it does with personal experiences.[/QUOTE

Thanks for sharing, scorpiosis.
My family didn't TELL me sex was bad; it just wasn't discussed. My mother's only instruction was to wait until after marriage, but at that time most "good girls" waited. It wasn't for religious reasons, just the morals of the time. I heard things from kids at school which made sex sound icky and not very much fun. Making out was the big thing. That was acceptable, and some "bad girls" engaged in "petting", but " going all the way" was whispered and viewed as something horribly wrong. So, not my parents, but society may have caused my feelings. Then, when I fooled around anyway, except for the one thing, I felt guilty and didn't enjoy it very much. Finally, marriage, when it's supposed to be so great, and then came disappointment.

I'm sorry, Bay.

I'm not sure either. Thanks.

Good advice, anilam. I never thought it was wrong. I just thought it was annoying. You're right. If my older child would have done that to my younger one, I would have been concerned. I think. Or would I think it was just exploration? Not totally sure.

I wrote that he was 9, but I think he must have been 10 or 11 because I don't remember much from when I was 4, and also we lived in a different house. So probably 5 and 10 or even 6 and 11. I know about the spying because he likes to write and kept journals. He gave them to me to read when I was around 21. He wrote that he was proud of how he cut out the tile and wall board so no one could see it, so he could see from his room into the bathroom. I felt humiliated and shamed when I read that even though it happened 7 years before and I didn't know about it. I've discussed it in therapy. My brother never apologized for anything. Maybe about the matches but I'm not sure.

Mastodon, your opinion is refreshing! Thank you.

The problem is that I've lived so many years as a married woman and always thought it was my husband's "fault." Now I realize some of the problem was my history. See, I may have thought it ick but I always wanted to feel satisfied. Kind of a push pull there. Frustrating and complicated, at least with a partner.

Soup, thank you SO much! I feel the same way. My brother wasn't being malicious, and didn't know that the touching could be called abuse. I can't call it abuse. I can call the other things he did to me abusive, though. The matches and the spying.

Thanks, Red. I agree my feelings probably come from more than one source. It does make sense that my brother didn't intend to be abusive but what he did could be called abuse.

I think the spying was abuse and the touching wasn't, even though I didn't want to do it. I for sure was 5 or 6 because I remember so clearly, at least once. I wonder if I was 7 and he 12. That makes more sense.

Thank you for sharing, puppy. My brother never threatened me; it seemed more like pleading. I don't feel like a victim but maybe I was. I'm glad for you that you can say the word now and that you don't blame yourself.

Thanks, Mona. I have also read about the 5 year age difference being the dividing point. One of my past Ts told me it also. I don't think I knew it was wrong, but I didn't like him making me do something I didn't want to do. I didn't like seeing him naked. Maybe I felt the ick factor then. What he did to enable the spying and his watching me in the shower I feel was terribly wrong!

That's true. Actually, two girl cousins my age did something that affected more than what my brother did. Somehow they undressed me and put me in a bathroom basin, sitting up, and put hot water in it. They did this because I didn't talk to them and they thought it would make me talk. We were 6 years old. I couldn't talk because I had selective mutism but I didn't even try to stop them. About 15 years later they apologized. They realized it was wrong at least. I blocked out the whole episode. I never told my mother or anyone until I told my first T when I was in my 30's.

Thanks. I definitely felt traumatized by what my cousins did even though it wasn't sexual. I didn't exactly think what my brother did was a game, but he was always teaching me different board games and making up treasure hunts for me. I knew this was different.

Thanks for sharing, Mike. I know I got some of it from my parents too.

Thank you, tw4m. You said it was a rhetorical question but I want to answer it. I didn't go to my parents with questions about my body. I was embarrassed. I didn't tell them what my brother or my cousins did. Not ever. I needed to ask questions but couldn't. I don't know why. I was always ashamed of my body. Another ick. I didn't have anyone at all to talk about any intimate stuff. My Mom showed me what to do before I got my period but I was embarrassed to look at her. I hated when she took me shopping for bras and the saleslady stayed in the room! All that was traumatic for me!

Thanks, WrkNPrgress. It all seems very complicated. On the one hand, I'd like to work through these issues, but in the other hand, what difference does it make in my life now? I'm not a young person starting out; I'm a senior though I certainly don't feel like one emotionally!

rainbow,

You often speak of the love your parents had for you, and I don't doubt that for a moment. But, the more you reveal about your brother's attitude toward you done with childish ignorance as to how is behavior would affect you, the more I see how it relates to your suffering with the insecurity of your therapist. Secure attachment is about SAFETY and SECURITY, and with your brother's violations of you in many different ways, how could you have had a safe and secure attachment with your parents. They couldn't protect you in their household, whether they knew or didn't know about your brother's behavior. Your brother needed counseling, and he never would have gotten it given cultural attitudes back then. Children need to feel safe, and at no time were you safe. So, I suspect you cling to your therapist, and want her there at all times (figuratively speaking). You become so unsettled when the connection is broken, and can't seem to hold onto it when she is out of your sight. I am positive your brother did not behave this way toward you, when people of authority were in sight.I think many adults would be where you are now if that is what their childhood was fraught with. I know I would.

I don't believe you stated whether you and your brother have talked about these things as an adult. And, that he has apologized? His handing over his journals for you to read at the age of 26 was just one more cruel act toward you, especially because it did not come with an apology before you read them. What did you say to him or your parents when you read them? If you never went to your parents at any age for protection against him then to me that is very telling – you were never safe or secure as a child, despite all the love your parents gave you. There was no way to utilize their love, because of all the fear you were going through all alone.

I think your therapist is on the right track, and this may be the monkey on your back. Is there a possibility of him and you doing several sessions together, even if he has to travel to you?

These are my opinions only, so please feel free to pass over them, if they don't fit your situation.

Take care rain.

My experience also.

I think before we become sexually aware, understand fully the good feelings and the icky ones about sex, it can be hard to have anything but an "ick" response? We don't understand, just know it is not our normal situation, we are being handled or looked at in ways we don't understand and that there's something "not right" going on. We have natural hug/hug back responses to our care givers, clinging, when we're infants and the human sexual response is natural too but does not kick in until later and if you have someone for whom it has kicked in and someone for whom it has not, it is a mismatch? There's no mutuality possible, even with words, which there usually are not. So the "training" that someone who is not sexually responsive gets is just the feeling of "ick" and even with the sexual response kicking in later, that still makes the interaction with another difficult because the feeling is that the other gave the ick feeling to us and why wouldn't all others in this situation in the future be the same? A loving, patient partner can help us learn otherwise but where do you get loving, patient partners with that kind of training?

I agree with your therapist. Frankly, 10 is old enough to know you don't touch people in certain places without their permission.

Do you experience sexual attraction at all, toward anybody, under any circumstances? Or is it possible you're asexual? Some asexuals are sex-repulsed. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them, though.

I am so amazed by so many posters here that have survived so much. You are all amazing.



I haven't brought up my CSA incident (Well, there were two, I think) to my T yet but it's on my list. I'm shy about talking about sex at all. I want to get over that, just because I'd like to feel more confidant about it in general.

I didn't really like sex much at all until I was with my third partner and had my first real orgasm. I also figured out that I could be pretty good at it myself, but I sometimes wonder if I'm not expressing myself as fully as possible, if I'm holding back not just in sex but in any expression or discussion of my sexuality with my partner.

Anyway, once I figured out my own sexuality, I've never considered the CSA an issue. It's an ugly memory but not a bad one, if that makes sense. I think because I was able to put a stop to it and have some agency around it, I've never felt traumatized by it.

I've brought it up freely with previous T's I was not emotionally invested with and yet, I have yet to discuss it with my current T. hhmmmm....go figure.

There is a lot of truth in your comments. I didn't know that I didn't feel safe with my parents, though. Does that sound weird? But the best part of my therapy has always been holding my T's hand because I feel safe then. I wish I could hold her hand forever. It's easy to deduce that I didn't feel safe like that with my mother even though my Mom was always around, protecting me. I didn't feel safe telling her what my cousins did to me. I blocked it out, maybe dissociated, I don't know why. They never said don't tell. They would have gotten punished if I told. I never told them about the shower stuff. I was 21 when I read about it, not 26. There was only a couple of pages about it. I was ashamed and embarrassed; I didn't know what to say to him. I just felt violated even though it happened 7 years before I read about it. I didn't see a point to telling my parents. It would only upset them.

My brother isn't available to come to therapy but you are right that he needed it!!! He has had a lot of issues including depression but he doesn't believe in therapy. I've emailed him and asked about the sex play but I don't understand his answers. Once he said I had the wrong idea. Another time he told me he touched me once and I liked it. He thinks it was mutual, I think. He even said once, on a car trip, I had my hand in his pants and we had a blanket over us so our mother wouldn't see! I don't know if that's true. I don't remember it at all. Before the spying episodes, it must have been, he once tried to take my blouse off. I told him "no" and I was a little afraid of him for awhile after that. I was a teenager. He never did that again and I never told. When I asked him about that, as an adult, he said he got the idea from a friend, whose sister was agreeable to that kind of play.
Perna, that makes sense. It isn't something you ask about before marriage. Not in my day, anyway. I can fantasize very beautiful encounters, or read about them, or see them in movies but the "ick" factor is removed then!

I'm confused, but probably because you haven't read many of my threads. I've experienced sexual attraction towards other people, including my Ts. I felt it for my H mostly before we got married. I felt it for guys I had crushes on. I don't think I'm asexual. I don't think someone could be called asexual if they enjoy masturbating, can they?

Thanks for sharing. Maybe it would be good to discuss the CSA with your current T. I used to find it hard to talk about sex with other Ts, but this T makes it easy to talk about though it's taken time! Like in my last session, I started to stumble and told T something was too graphic to say and she said "say it anyway!" So I did!

Hi rain – to clarify it was your brother that was 26. One of the questions you may need to answer for yourself is why were you so willing from such a young age to protect your parents from things that were done to you physically and sexually. I know you said you did not want to get them, your brother and cousins in trouble, but that doesn't explain silencing the sexual behaviors perpetrated upon you by your brother. How would you have known that behavior needed to remain hush-hush? It was communicated to you somehow, and my guess is it was an adult.

The way parents behave and respond to us is where we get our behavioral cues at various developmental stages. When I woke in the morning as a kid I knew if mom wasn't happy I was not allowed to be happy either. It was about her, and her world. I learned quickly how to behave based on her moods. Don't tell her about the bad, because she can't handle it. Your parents behavior stopped you dead in your tracks. You often talk about you being a fragile preemie. You must have know from a very young age that your parents were more fragile than you. It was your responsibility rain to keep the happy home.

It is interesting to me that you now remember your cousins shenanigans coming back to you, and you now have body memories of the horrific pain. Who knows what memories you have blocked out regarding your brother's illicit behaviors.

I suspect if you allow yourself to stay with the topic of young rain's treatment at the hands of others, and get angry/rage at those injustices, it may close a chapter in your journey. At the moment, this chapter not only involves your cohorts (kids), but your parents, and their inability to give you safe haven. My guess is that you will be angry at your brother and work through it, but he is a bit player in the end, because it most likely will lead back to mom (dad too), and her inability to provide you with a secure attachment. You will have to mourn what you did not get from them, that you thought you had gotten, and then reconcile with what they did give you – love – the only way they knew how.

You are a fighter rain, and a gentle caring soul. I think you are doing a lot of hard work in therapy. The more you reveal, the more your need for connection with your therapist makes sense to me. No shame there. The best to you!

*These are my opinions only.

Thank you for continuing to support me, tw4m. I appreciate your compassion and eloquent way of expressing your thoughts. I want you to know that I HAVE talked about all of those incidents in therapy but I've never gotten angry about them, and I haven't been able to accept that my parents failed in some way or didn't make it safe for me to confide in them. It's true, though. I will certainly discuss all of this more in therapy.

This thread has helped me. Thank you to everyone.

Instead of the word "reveal" these issues It should be "deal"with...It will be a lot of concentrated work, and you may need more frequent sessions.

You may want to recheck H's health insurance plan. If his company is >50 employees the plan may be under the parity in mental health act, and now outside their grandfathered-in clauses. I would recommend reading the coverage booklet yourself as opposed to just a phone call to them.

Yo are on your way chica.

We're both on Medicare and my T doesn't accept it. She's already giving me a reduced rate. I'll be okay; don't worry!

Hi Rainbow! You have made a lot of progress since I was last here! After reading the above, I'm thinking that you are not having connected interactions with others in real life. Your T is safe for you (can't be involved with you in real life).

I'm also wondering if your mom took care of you in a detached way, meaning not really connecting with you on a person to person level? If so, this could explain why you couldn't confide in her & also how you could learn that you needed to cooperate with your age mate cousins & brother. (Because you didn't learn that relationships are interactive).

I'm also feeling that you learned that your needs aren't important (cousins & brother doing what they want) & that this continued on with your husband.

Those who violate their siblings learn this in a home where boundaries are not respected by the adults.

Finally, if you aren't enjoying your intimate relationship with your husband this is reinforcing that sex is ick.

Sannah, hi!!!

I can identify with what you wrote here. I remember my mother telling me that the prospective first mr hankster and i had "no communication". It occurred to me this week - why didnt she just say he didnt love me? I understand NOW why, and its for many of the reasons you state.

Sannah, it's so nice to see you here again! I've missed you. Thank you for posting in my thread. I have connections with friends; a few of them are very close relationships. Sadly, my H and I don't seem to be on the same wave length and we don't connect too well, emotionally or physically. My T used to tell me I have choices but I didn't want to leave him. Now he's sick and needs me.

It's difficult to think that my mother and I didn't connect but if everything would have been the way it was supposed to be, I suppose I would have been able to her my problems. She was the nicest person, my Mom: she wanted the best for me and my brother, we all went on family car trips, had great times, and connected about most things. I just couldn't ask questions about my body or tell her what my brother and cousins did. I was probably ashamed. Maybe it's because my parents were inhibited and modest, and passed that along to me. I couldn't even talk to my Mom about why I couldn't talk to others! She didn't force me to talk but neither did she get help except for asking the pediatrician who said I'd outgrow the mutism. I talked normally to my parents and brother, though. I don't know what my T and I can figure out. It seems like a mystery to me except for my Ts all saying that we're not blaming my Mom or Dad, but they didn't meet my needs. I'm frustrated about this, and sad, because the answers don't make sense to me. Maybe I'm in denial, or maybe it wasn't such a big deal after all?

Are you talking about YOUR prospective H or a stepfather?

Since you were only four and the sexual activity was not violent or painful, I don't know if you would have felt ashamed at all or even had a thought to tell your mom. He, at nine, was still quite young- my daughter is nine now, so I see how very underdeveloped they are cognitively compared to teens or adults while at the same time being curious, willful, and still somewhat- to quite-innocent about their physicality.

That's not to say he should have bothered you if you weren't willing, or that it was accepted/normative to do that in our culture, but I think, like I believe Stopdog alluded to, what really matters is how you experienced it. (Also, while it's considered taboo, it's also not so uncommon in my experience hearing from friends and reading different texts.)

It seems perhaps even more likely to me that you may be relabeling it through the context of other people's reactions, and through a judgmental adult perspective where you've learned/determined that such things are shameful. I second prior posters' considerations that your present day marriage is really fueling this "ick" reaction too. I hope you gain clarity on this, and more importantly peace. Plus hopefully the opportunity to embrace your sexuality rather than always having that "ick" reaction, I know both ends of the spectrum, so I can empathize about that part.

Thank you, Leah. Just to clarify because this thread is so long: I actually believe my brother was 10 or 11. I'm just not sure. Also, the other things were when he was a teenager, like spying on me in the shower and throwing lit matches at me when I was locked in the closet.

My T says the "ick" reaction most likely came before my H. I'm very mixed up about it all. There is probably not one answer! Life is complex. I'm not sure I agree with my T which is why I started the thread. I do know my brother had some serious issues that probably began in childhood.

Hi Rainbow, yep, I was just going by this:

Well, the way to know what's there is to know yourself and see what feelings come up, if any when you share openly about it. If there's old pain/a trigger there, specifically, you'll feel it, something to work through, if not, the movement will be easier. It certainly is complex, multifactor, no doubt.

The trouble with reexamining the past is that the act of examination changes it.