Starting to feel a connection...

I am studying for ministry, but I'm on illness leave right now from school. We get people walking in all the time. People are usually pretty friendly. My pastor is terrible at email and doesn't even seem to read the vast majority of it sent to the general email address. I email her at her personal one because we're close but if someone new emailed her at the church one she probably wouldn't have even got it... But she's welcoming, warm, and lovely anyway. Please don't take the email thing personally, go to a service in person! I know I would also take it personally but I would be needlessly limiting myself.

I don't understand this.

I know what I'm looking for in a T exists. It was with ex-T, another ex-T, a college counselor, a jr. high counselor, a payee, a mental health counselor, a crisis house counselor, my DBT group facilitator, etc. I know it exists. It's not rare. Maybe I don't know how to describe it, but it's not the holy grail.

And yes I need structure, I agree. It felt threatening by putting a deadline and telling me to get a job.

But everyone is ignoring the pain she has just caused me. What do I do with that? Forgive and forget? All is well. Just ignore it. If that worked then I wouldn't be so hurt by ex-T? She hurt me. She was cold and distant. I was balling for an hour and no tissues, not once was I asked if I was okay... I felt attacked, betrayed, and violated. She never apologized. She turned on me and was too harsh, too mean. I don't like people like that. How do I stay with her now that I'm terrified of her hurting me again? She said she's not perfect and will make mistakes. But she doesn't take ownership of her mistakes, doesn’t try to correct them, and doesn’t apologize.

Something my T suggested to me was to do things that I enjoyed and created positive feelings when I am in a lot of emotional pain. For me one of those things is swimming. Do you have anything that you enjoy doing that creates positive feelings that might take the hurt away?

If this new T hurt you so much you can try and find another one who might meet the needs you want/need.

I actually might go swimming with my mom and niece tomorrow! I'm really excited about it too. But most everything I do is simply distractions. I haven't gotten pleasure out of most things since ex-T left. I try to do things like painting, crocheting, architecture, cooking, tv, movies, games, chores, playing with my dogs, music, etc...but the thoughts still slip in and the feelings don't go away

I just came from the pool myself! The great thing about swimming is that it forces you to concentrate on the activity enough so that your mind has to forget temporarily the stuff that's bothering it, and (for me anyway) my brain is not so occupied that I can't be subconsciously processing the stuff that's bothering it. None of the other things you mention quite produce that level of absorption and subconscious freedom, at least not for me. I used to swim after any fight with my husband, and it would always calm me down and get rid of the anger.

As for your therapist...I don't know how you get past it. (And I agree about the deadline; that would put me off.) But it seems like you want more structure in your life, and so does your therapist. That at least you agree on. So why not go ahead with your plans about church, school, maybe volunteering, etc.? And then see how it goes with her for the next couple of weeks before you decide anything.

What is your difficulty with outpatient? I would think it might help you with structure? At any rate, it is temporary.

You say you want neutrality and you are suicidal and want to SI when she says she wants that also. Perhaps this feels like a rejection and it's too much to bear and that is something worth exploring. You seem to want to cling onto T as a floatation device rather than seeing her for what she is which is someone on the sidelines trying to teach you how to swim yourself. Your needs are not wrong but neither are her boundaries. She wants more in place to get you safe. Because no one can be someone's everything. One day she'll be away and unable to talk you down so she wants measures in place.

Having your needs met by well meaning T's doesn't seem to have helped you long term. You are still here. Maybe she's trying to enact long term change. I'm not ignoring the pain she's caused you but I am saying I don't think setting clear effective boundaries is not a mistake. Maybe if your last T had she wouldn't have behaved the way she ended up doing.

Good luck.

1. I hate groups
2. Many make you see their T and/or Pdoc
3. My insurance doesn’t cover any
4. I'm already paying more than what I should be for T.

I will say that I'm confused and slightly offened. I don’t understand why everyone's caught up with the word neutral. Either someone's got to explain it clearly to me (beacuse I'm not understanding) or you need to drop it.

Second, it's hurtful that no one is even considering my feelings about all this...the pain this has caused me.

Third, I do know what it's like to have a good T. I saw an ex-T for 4 years. I started out homeless, moneyless, familyless, and friendless. In the end, I had my own apartment, my own dog, I was driving, I was attending college, and tutoring part time at the college. Do NOT tell me that therapy doesn't meet my needs.

Fourth, look where I am? We're all here? Point fingers at yourself before pointing them at me. I'm NOT horribly off. If you think about who I am, what I suffer from, what happened to me, and where I'm at now, I am doing great. I haven't attempted suicide, I haven't been hospitalized, I don’t need a crisis house, I still take care of ALL my responsibilities, and I still go out when the opportunity presents itself.

Just like my T, I feel you all need to give me a little credit. I haven't quit or given up. I'm in a lot of pain. It's only been 5 months since I lost ex-T and I'm still here. So if you wish to insult my progress, do not post.

And finally, what my T did was wrong. Bad delivery. The end point were right. I do need more structure. I do NOT disagree with that. She does have a lot of boundaries which can be a good thing. But she had no right to put a deadline on me for having 3 bad days. She even agreed. So if you think the deadline was okay, you're not even agreeing with my T.

I need support right now, not criticism.

Btw, Lolagrace, this isn't about what you wrote. Still not upset with you (Finally, right?)

Btw...having a connection to people is NOT bad or unhealthy. Why is it so wrong to want that?

Sometimes support feels like criticism, like tough love. (I've had that experience myself here, more than once. Folks won't always deliver what we need or may deliver it in a way that is hard for us to deal with, but everyone's trying.) The folks here have stood by you for a very long time I think, in many cases, and no doubt felt badly to hear you hurting yourself and dealing with other terrible events.

And so I think their point (for some of us, best I can tell), and mine, is that actually, while the pain is valid, understandable and tough, there is actually a much bigger issue, and that is getting you stable.

Once you're more stable the pain will get a lot more manageable. (For instance, I wouldn't want to see a therapist either that never says they care for clients, however, you two have had other better sessions by far and you have some rapport with her, right? And she negotiated the timeline with you. So, it seems what you need much more than certain words atm is a safety plan. You can find others who will say they care, but this may not be the best time to forgo someone who IS caring by trying to get you stable.)

Structure is an antidote to negativity, to rumination. A full, meaninful life is a tremendous balm on pain. That's been my experience, hard won experience.

This is a workbook that helped me: http://www.amazon.com/Dialectical-Be.../dp/1572245131

I second Lola's advice about building structure into your daily routine, not 10 different things at once, but in manageable, concrete, measurable, shareable steps.

I don't blame your current therapist for what she did- telling you her limits and her time frame. I know it's hard to accept it, and it's happened to me, so I know the bleeding on the inside feeling it causes, because I have been told I am too much, when I desperately needed help, but your therapist is rightly concerned about your survival, your healthy survival. You need the plan as far as I can tell.

Wanting the connection is very healthy. Wanting someone else to keep you alive is not. Only because they can't do it. I think once you stand a bit more on your two feet, then others will actually be able to give more. I know that probably sounds lousy and paradoxical. (((((ScarletPimpernel)))))

The above statement is very important to hear. I do not intend to start a fight or criticize anyone for being here, forgive my poor choice of words/ All I mean is that you have had that immersion in T before, it has ended badly and you have ended in some not great situations lately, perhaps a different way of doing things may be helpful?

I do not think a connection is unusual. For example I have a connection with my friend. I am there for her and vice versa. I think she is pretty great. If one day she tells me "You have to start doing something, get a job, volunteer, get moving" well it's hard to hear and I may shoot the messenger but ultimately our friendship is stronger and I can take on board what she says What I don't do is call her and expect her to talk me down and if she doesn't behave in the exact way I want her to then lose it and SI.

If someone saves you over and over it robs you of a wonderful chance to learn how to save yourself. This may feel harsh and you may want her to be much more tender but that is who she is and you cannot control her delivery. You may decide to take her advice or not or to listen or not.

But she agreed the deadline was unnecessary. She put it in because she literally thought I was in bed 24/7. She got mad at me for not telling her the good things I'm doing, but like I told her, she never asked.

I don't see SI as her saving me. I see it as me saving myself. Each time before I SI, I struggle. It's an internal fight. I try as hard as I can to resist: distractions, talking to my fiance or mom, and if I have to, Ativan. It's not like I'm not trying. I only ever called her for support because that was HER expectations; not mine. Maybe you guys think I asked for that, but I did not. I hate phones. I don't want to be calling her. I don't want her saving me. I want her there once a week for the 50mins. That's it. And I want to be able to email her. Which she's fine with. I have accepted ALL of her boundaries. The only thing I reject is her saying she won't say she cares. It makes no sense. She told me and my fiance she's a caring and comforting person. And she said she gives hugs. And I have NEVER asked her if she cares about me.

I don't understand everyone's point. I really don't. I don't understand how you can agree with her delivery. I don't understand how you can say my pain doesn't matter.

And if anyone here supporting me is tired of it, I'll understand. But I don't understand why some of you aren't understanding me.

The only thing I agree with is me needing structure. But I've said that (I think I did). I feel like you aren't "listening".

And it makes no sense why some of you agree with the deadline even when T doesn't agree with it.

I'm not teying to fight with you all. I don’t understand though.

This was a reaction to:

SP I don't agree with the deadline but you stated up front that was removed so I didn't think that was a point.

I highlighted some quotes above. I feel that you talk about SI/SUI etc and then when people question it you feel attacked and get defensive and maybe that pattern is repeating in T. I know as I've done it. Her delivery may be off and it hurt you, but now it seems like an epic therapy ending huge big crisis that had ypu saying you wanted to SI and you wanted to die.

People are all trying to support in their own ways but unless it's the way you want then it doesn't feel good enough. Sometimes accepting people are doing their best is enough to have some forgiveness.

I'm sorry I can't respond the way you would like and that you are hurting, you have every right to your feelings but perhaps try and look at them objectively and see if they are in perspective with the "crime"

I did agree with you about the deadline previously - ultimatums always do more harm than good in interpersonal relationships in my experience. (I see red when someone gives me one.)

I don't think anyone has said or implied your pain doesn't matter; if they did, I missed it. But you clearly identified something you wanted - structure - and you had the beginnings of a plan to get there. I say, continue on that path and focus on it as a way past the pain over this rupture. (You probably are already.) And then you can make a clearer decision about continuing with this woman or not.

Sometimes when comments don't seem clear to me or fair or on target, I take a break and come back to them later and reread everything. Sometimes I need a while, and a few readings, to get perspective.

Maybe if you come back to the parts that are puzzling you or bothering you in a day or two, it'll be easier to take them in and make sense of them, or sort out what you want to address.

I'm not so sure, but okay. I'll reread all of it come Monday.

I understand your posts. And I am trying. I spent 4 hrs shopping and going out to lunch with my mom today.

And if I have enough courage, this Sunday my fiance and I are going to just go to the church.

If you don't mind, I am going to offer my two cents on this.

I have two therapists. One is my regular therapist, who I have been seeing for two and half years. The other is my university mentor, who is a psychotherapist employed by the university specifically to work with students who struggle with mental disorders, like me. I have been seeing her for about six months.

I have a very comfortable relationship with my regular therapist. She is a kind and empathetic person, and I feel completely at ease in her office; it's an uncharged atmosphere, where I get to talk about my feelings and my issues with someone who simply listens and makes occasional observations or suggestions, without any sort of judgment. She is caring and compassionate, but it's clearly in a professional capacity. It stays there, somewhat superficially, so it was very easy for me to slide into that relationship. It's nice and neutral.

My university mentor, on the other hand, is completely different. My relationship with her feels far from neutral; it's heavily charged with feelings and there's transference all over the place. Whereas my regular therapist offers gentle support, my mentor gives me something I've never experienced before: the feeling of being seen and heard, and valued. She regularly tells me that she's worried about me, which isn't something I'm used to hearing; people don't usually see me as someone they should be worried about.

My mentor tells me that she enjoys spending time with me, that she has "a lot of time and energy" for me, that she thinks we have a special relationship and that she would be so proud of me if she was my mother. She tells me I am an incredibly strong person who has a lot to be proud of. "How do you keep all of that inside of you?" she often asks me. "I've had a lot of practice," is my usual reply. It is so strange to have someone see through that, and thus being able to poke holes in it. She has made me aware of all my destructive scripts and my subconscious self-sabotage; she reads me with almost terrifying accuracy, forcing me to realise all the horrible things I do to myself on a daily basis. She validates me, and she's somehow managed to significantly deflate my inner bully, making way for an emotional part of me that hasn't seen the light of day in years so that I am now able to feel other things than self-hatred. This woman has helped me so much in just six months, and I feel an overwhelming amount of love for her, but I am perfectly capable of keeping that to myself. It hurts, at times, but I can manage it, and she has been exactly what I have needed. She is revolutionising my life.

It sounds to me as if what you need is someone more like my regular therapist. You say you want someone neutral, and that's what my therapist is to me. It's nice and comfortable, but it doesn't go beyond that. Does that sound like the sort of therapeutic relationship you are looking for?

Sorry I missed your post! I listened to Leah's (I think) advice and took some time away from my thread.

Honestly, both of your Ts sound nice. I think I would want a combination of your two Ts, but more like your regular T.

I want someone who will listen, who is engaged. Someone who empathizes with me. I want someone who gently pushes me and encourages me once I get going. I want someone who I can go to with all the ugly about myself and not be judged. I don't need to be made to feel special. I don't want transference, but want a connection that goes beyond superficial. I don't need there to be disclosures. I'm even okay with current T's touch boundaries. And I'm okay with her not being a fixed part of my crisis plan. I want her to be warm and conforting, strong, funny. It does exist! In many forms too. I've met tons of these types of women...tons. And every time I've had the privilege to be in their life in someway, even in a professional capacity, I have learned and grown so much.

Maybe I just suck at putting words to describe what I'm looking for. But it does exist in mass quantities. Well, if it's rare, then I have some really good luck.

So first off, I still don't understand you Leah and Jane. Sorry! I don't know if it's simply not making sense or if it's because it doesn't apply to me.

I saw T today. She confirmed last week was a catastrophe (her words, not mine). She said the little fights we've had are normal, but not what happened last week. She said if it happens again, we will have to consider termination. She did reassure me that even if I hate her and think she's the meanest person on earth, she will stay with me until I can transfer to another T. I don't hate my T btw.

I contacted my Pdoc about last week and she's going to schedule me a sooner appt so we can discuss what happened and if I should stay or quit my T.

Today, T talked about some of her feelings and I'm glad she did. It helped me understand her better. Basically, she feels like a "bad guy". She doesn't want to be middleman btwn me and ex-T anymore. I don't want her to be either. Ex-T set it up this way, not us. Anyhow, she feels like the bad guy because she keeps having to deliver me bad news from ex-T. So even though she's not directly causing me pain, indirectly she is, and she doesn't like it. That's why when we had one bad phone call, she decided to no longer be a part of my crisis plan. She feels like she keeps hurting me, letting me down, or is failing me. (See, her saying that means more than the words "I care about you").

She also said she's having trouble treating me because of ex-T's back and forth game she's playing. I keep getting my hopes up only for her to let me down again. And every time ex-T lets me down, I fall back into a crisis. So she said she can't even do grief counseling with me because I keep getting stuck in the grief cycle thanks to ex-T. T hopes this last email correspondence will be the last btwn her and ex-T. She agreed to all of these atyempts for closure because she really thought it might help me. But now she feels we're just dragging everything out.

So next week will be the week that I get the final information from ex-T. She answered the questions that T sent her, so I will get to find them out. And I will finally....read her letter!!! (About time, right?). We've agreed to do it both on the same day so I will only have 1 bad week instead of 2 consecutive bad weeks or drawing the pain out longer.

Oh, and while she said it was completely my choice, T said that she would advise me not to file a grievance with the state only because it's going to prolong my suffering (I remember you, Pam, saying that months ago). I still don't know though. I'll ask my Pdoc about that too.

But overall, T and I agreed to give things a few more weeks. We are both at a standstill and don't know whether it is best for me to stay or quit. I need to start telling her positive things that I'm doing for myself and things I find that she's done positive for me. That way she can tell how much support I need from her and if she's actually helping me.

I do have to say that today was a good session. A lot of listening and understanding btwn the both of us. I really don't want to find another T, and even my T agrees that I need to stay in therapy even if it's simply for accountability and safety.She just needs to be a little warmer. I mean come on, she had pink hair today! You know she has a fun personality. She just needs to listen and ask questions. If she needs reassurance, I am happy to provide that for her. And maybe a little furrow in her brow when she's listening will help. I am really not as needy as everyone is making me out to be.

Oh! Btw, she did agree that my SI was NOT a gesture for her to save me (and actually if you read up on real SI, it is NOT used for manipulation contrary to what most people think). She agrees that it was me trying to save myself...from despair, hopelessness, or worse SUI.

I think that's it

That sounds great, actually. I am kind of impressed with your therapist. And it is not a profession that impresses me easily.

I would say, though, don't get hung up on reassuring her. The two of you may have started up under unusual and trying circumstances, but as things normalize, remember that reassurance is her job, not yours.

And I hope that next week is not that bad for you.

bof of em