Signs of a bad therapist

But why credit therapy for benchmarks -sometimes mere time changes things.

Credit therapy if the changes are attributable to therapy; to time if attributable to time. If a person cant tell the difference, they prolly got other more important problems!

I don't know how one would necessarily be able to tell. I don't attribute anything to therapy so for me it is a just mere interest.

I found the changes directly attributable to therapy were pretty obvious to me. And things that have just changed over time due to life experience, etc. are also fairly easy to distinguish. I don't find it really that hard to tell the difference. I guess if I couldn't tell tangibly what changes were occurring through therapy, I personally would not be continue spending money on it. But different people go to therapy for different reasons I realize.

No the pain studies are done in clinics with express consent by owners. No one is lying to anyone or giving out fake pills.
We don't understand the placebo effect well enough to understand all the situations it will or won't work in. But for example many homeopathic remedies show no measurable effect on the body and contain no traces of the intended herb etc yet they work for at least some people ( way more lying going on there)

But we do know belief is important in recovery and we know that the mind has a powerful influence on these things. I know that until I had a diagnosis my muscle cramps etc seemed intolerable. I could barely move. Once I UNDERSTOOD what was happening and knew the cause my own perception of the pain changed. It hurts just as much but I find it less debilitating.

I can't explain it all. But its an area of enormous research right now

If a change in my life is attributable to therapy it is fairly obvious to me. I only go to therapy when I have a specific reason. Generally we discuss my goals, what the what therapy involves and what the therapist is doing. For me there are few surprises so I'm pretty aware of wherher or not therapy is working.

I cant even visualize what effective or productive therapy looks like.

I don't want advice or instruction in how to live and think it is a dangerous slippery slope.

I've yet to hear much in the way of truly useful or eye-opening insights from T's (and have done fair amount of reading and self analysis so don't know much can be added).

I can see how having a genuine connection with another person in any context could be healing, but I thought I had that and then got badly burned and realized in hindsight that it was a warped sort of connection.

I don't really need to be challenged or pushed, along the lines of a life coach.

I would like to feel more connected and less alone, but depending on a paid stranger in that way also led to much pain.

IMO: the healing modality of therapy is addressing emotional thinking, which is the basis of the majority of problems people present to therapy with.

It is a reparenting process but "reparenting" is a misnomer. The whole point of reparenting is to teach the client to stop needing and expecting other people to act like their parent. Unhealthy adults feel the need to control the way other people think and behave, and there are many strategies to do this that manifest as many different mental conditions, but it's all rooted in emotional thinking, confusing subjective and objective, self and other, thoughts and feelings, suspicions and realities, past and present, etc.

Unfortunately, many therapists also are unhealthy and need their clients to possess certain thoughts, feelings or behaviors, so instead of "reparenting," these therapists replace the parent where the parent failed and preserve or deepen the client's state of dependency.

I disagree. Therapy is built to be one size fits all, and that's why the treatment modality is actually unimportant to the treatment outcome.

I believe it's unethical to offer a service with no real idea beforehand of whether or not, or exactly how it will be of any benefit. However, an appropriate, responsible and ethical treatment framework of therapy does work, and certainly could guarantee results if it were executed properly every time, every session, with every client. Unfortunately, therapists are typically unable to do that, and often unable to even know if they are actually doing that, and to the extent that they cannot do that, the service they are offering is basically emotional prostitution masquerading as healing work.

So the problem is that a significant number of therapists themselves don't sufficiently understand the service they are offering--how it works, why it works, or where it is and isn't working--even though the therapist must understand those things to be able to provide the actual service in the first place.

But the real crime is that the burden to determine the effectiveness of the therapy is placed completely on the client's shoulders, despite the fact that to an unhealthy client, unhealthy therapy will feel effective and good and addictive in all the ways it is actually harmful. Clients will actually prefer therapists that are at a similarly unhealthy level of psychological development, even though those therapists are unable to help the client grow.

Y'know, I don't know anyone who would gladly pay to see their doctor once a week for years, for this symptom and that symptom, and if they did, they'd probably be diagnosed with a factitious disorder long before that could happen. It just astounds me how easily and frequently therapy dips into the territory of selling the relationship rather than the results.

I would not attend therapy without clear goals in place and have no desire to meet with anyone once a week unless that meeting has a purpose. Regardless, I don't think of therapy as reparenting since I already have parents and don't want someone acting out that role. Still, that's probably just a matter of semantics since therapy can certainly be seen that way. Regardless, I'm not going to judge someone else's process if their own reasons for attending therapy are different from mine. Some people just want a confidante, others want to build skills. I'm not going to tell them what they should and shouldn't talk about and what their process should be.

Lol, I love this Stop dog. If only we sat in playing poker and watching movies to get a degree
I don't think if therapy as a placebo but I can clearly see why people do and why that can be frustrating. If a t can't tell you what they are doing and why, I would not go to see them. There are clear reasons for doing everything. Some tutors believe in telling the client (psychoeducating them) this works best for me in my own therapy and then you have the tutors/ supervisors who tell you to absolutely not tell the client what is happening. Again I would not pay any supervisor who insisted on that. I have no choice about current supervisor as she works for the centre I see clients in.

I have had numerous arguments about it with her. I tell my clients anything they need to know( if I know it). Again, there are therapists who can't even explain what they are doing and this is worrying because how can you trust someone who doesn't even know what they are doing.
It's like getting on a plane, I want toend my journey here and I trust that will happen but the pilot gets lost a long the way, see how dangerous it is to put all of your trust in someone.
I believe most ts have good intentions but that in itself can be a problem because they are blind to their own vulnerabilities and limitations.
We are thought a lot on that and I am very clear on my limitations and my skill set and will refer when I need. That doesn't make me a good therapist though just because I know that.
In my experience, even in my class there are trainee ts who lack empathy and believe that being a t is about fixing everything for the client. I would not see a like this either.
For me the signs of a good are someone who is approachable, has an interest in you and not in changing you. Can try and understand your situation without judgement and be open and flexible to change when needed.
Clients do change us too and I really believe in the relation particularly the "I, Thou" relationship.
Therapy is about acceptance of the client as they are and only trying to figure out a plan for change if this is what the client needs and wants. I firmly believe it is a collaboration between t and c. We both work for the greater good.
The new t I saw, (even though she has 26 years experience) the first thing she said was we are both equal in this room, no difference and I really liked that about her, she was the only t I had heard saying that. Being a gestalt therapist is about the relationship in the here and now and I would be niave to think there is no difference but she somehow managed to make me feel like that, to feel comfortable enough with her.

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I am sorry to hear that but I can see why so many don't complain because of it, the system is wrong and it should protect clients not the therapists

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In your view, how would you know if therapy worked?

This is your conflict that ideally a therapist would draw attention to.

You want to live and let live, yet sometimes you don't agree with the way people are living or what they are doing. You can't imagine actually telling them how to live, so instead, you repeatedly tell them the way you would live with the unconscious belief or hope that they would see reason and change their behavior.

^Reading this will probably make you angry. You have already been angry, but you were expressing it passively, through actions rather than words. So, pay attention to that anger and validate it. Actually the only healthy way to prevent people from intruding on you is to set boundaries and clearly tell them what you feel about their behavior. Your belief in not trying to change others is, at its heart, a fear of asserting yourself and subsequently being disliked, but it actually ironically makes you very intolerant of other people as soon as they do something you wouldn't do (and overly tolerant/indifferent as long as they stick to their role.)

Telling other people what you think and feel, even about other people, is not changing them or telling them what to do. And you don't have to do something just because someone would like or dislike you for doing it.

You have to address that stuff, otherwise as a T, you're going to have a LOT of trouble with resistant clients, and they will make you very anxious, and ultimately you will fail them to protect yourself from that anxiety.

The presenting problems would be resolved, and the client would comfortably, safely and contentedly end treatment.

No shortage of grandiosity here! Oy!

I'm not sure many of them have any idea what they are doing and why. And even if they say they do it seems pretty arrogant to pretend to know what is best for someone else's life (beyond dealing with suicidal tendencies or severe self injury or drug/alcohol abuse).

I'm actually quite anti-therapy in general. Because I have been so damaged from it this year.

I do find it strange that someone else who appears to be quite anti-therapy as well seems to put so much stock in analysis and Freudian theories like working with the subconscious and transference. I tend to disbelieve most of this stuff as a primary goal or reason for therapy. It's all theoretical anyway.

To be honest, the most helpful thing a therapist/psychiatrist team has ever done for me *is* to threaten me with hospitalization and try to force me to stop doing something dangerous. I didn't really want to do it, I just felt I deserved it. Maybe keeping myself alive is good enough progress for now. And no, I didn't do it to "pull the strings," I did it in a large part in response to the abuse I received from another therapist that broke my heart and made me feel worthless after 5+ years of excessive dependecy (worse than you would assume). I also feel *less* dependent even with the strong attempt to stop me from hurting myself than with my last therapist who just talked endlessly about attachment. So I don't think it's so black-and-white. I'm relieved to have a reason right now to not hurt myself that's beyond me, and I sadly need it at this point in my life. You can't improve and become self-sufficient if you're not alive. And I needed an intervention.

You can search my posts here, or ask anyone who has been around for awhile, I am one of the strongest/most vocal therapy skeptics there are here. And even I realize that there is a place for being encouraged or even forced to stop certain behaviors. A lot of people who hurt themselves really *want* to stop but have trouble accepting that they don't deserve it. If they really wanted to hurt themselves, I don't think they'd be in therapy in the first place.

So . . What if a therapist did some of the things on your list, some things that you have stated just never should be done, because he knew the client was able to manage those things, and the client's "presenting problems" were resolved so he/she could "comfortably, safely and contentedly end treatment?" What does that say about your absolutes about therapy and it being a one-size-fits-all profession and the need for a therapist to individualize approach for clients? Is it possible that perhaps your views about therapy may certainly apply to you and not necessarily to other people here who you really know very little about?

I understand what you mean although I don't agree that I've been angry. Maybe annoyed, but not angry. And I don't think my posts have been passive aggressive as I've pretty clearly stated that I don't agree with you. What do you think would be a less passive way to express myself?

I think it's important for me to point out that I do not present myself as a therapist on this forum but as a client. And as a client of therapy posting with peers, I don't think it's my place to tell anyone what is and isn't proper therapy for them, barring obvious inappropriateness. Even as a T I don't think it's my place, since being a T doesn't necessarily make me an authority. If someone want my clinical opinion Id give it, but in support forum like this that's usually not the case. That is the motivation behind my neutrality. If some people were my clients in session, the conversations would be different. You do bring up good points however, and it is something that a lot of T in training, myself included, have to watch out for. That said I do believe in kindness and think it's possible to be kind with out being overly passive. It's not always easy but deinitely possible. You are entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean I or anyone else who disagrees with you is automatically wrong. You may think they are, but that's black and white thinking and things in life are rarely so absolute.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-therapy. I have a problem with bad therapy, how prevalent it is and how much damage it does. There is truth in many different fields of thought but it is poorly implemented.

Anyway, it breaks my heart that you've gone through all that. I wish therapy could promise to be for you what you need it to be, I wish it were possible, but clearly it has hurt you by having tried and failed to do that in the past.

Surely you jest!

Hi lolagrace. That list--those are signs of themes in therapy that I believe are not helpful or are harmful to the client. Nobody's perfect, all therapists are human, it will happen sometimes. But if several of those things are consistently happening then in my opinion, they would indicate that that therapy alliance is unhealthy--it has covertly become a relationship of emotional gratification rather than fostering the client's growth. In terms of the specific situation, I can't say because I don't know any details.

But no, I still don't feel that my views are only applicable to me.

I won't touch anything remotely psychodynamic anymore. We are mainly working on real, concrete things to get me safe and stable, and that works for me now. In over 5 yrs with my last therapist, my life spiralled worse and worse and worse.

I'm working on stuff now like stopping hurting myself badly, eating well enough to sustain me, and getting over my fear of other people. That kind of therapy I did with the last one will never happen again. The current hospital team is helping me to pull my **** together so I get to a real, tangible place where I'm safe and can look after myself.

I agree a lot of therapy is really dangerous. I am afraid of being emotionally dependent. I am afraid of dependency being encouraged or being urged to trust more or be more dependent. If my current team said they were working toward anything but my ability to look after myself (safety/stability first), I would run the hell out of there so fast.

I think a lot of therapy is questionable at best, and life-destroying at worst, especially if you are dealing with a vulerable population. Finally, a year later, my self-harm has pretty much stopped being so violent and dangerous, but I am still angry/hurt that a "professional" (hah) would hurt me and leave me at risk. That pain lingers and lingers.

Just for an example, she told me about 5-6 months before she broke my heart (platonically), that I should move away with her when she retires to the city she plans on moving to "so I have someone who loves me nearby." So messed up.

Putting words to your motive--note that I never specifically requested your opinion, you volunteered it to me, so if you would maintain that all you genuinely wanted was for me to read your opinion, then at the very least, you can rest assured that I've done that.

Don't worry, I didn't think that you thought it was your place to tell someone what is proper therapy.

I don't think people who disagree with me are automatically wrong, and currently I also do not think that I'm wrong.

I'm glad you thought the points I raised were helpful!

It feels to me like you just want someone to hear you out and treat you with the decency and respect you deserve, and then it sounds like your last T irresponsibly gave you attention and affection for all the wrong things. Like, it's not your fault that you ended up with a bad T, but the harm stays with you anyway. And it's good that you're being more careful about therapy, but it's sad that you have to do that in the first place, like, if the client could protect themselves from abusive T's, they wouldn't be seeing them in the first place! It makes me really sad.

I have only been reading up to this point, but I have to say MP, that my therapist has done many of the things you state make a therapist a bad therapist. However, I have gone from being so suicidal that I could not function and had to focus on not killing myself for set periods of time because I could not face the thought of living through the entire to being basically happy and having only the occasional period of depression. Work has improved dramatically for me and my income has increased significantly. My husband and I went from being on the edge of divorce to being very happy together again. I would count my therapy as a huge success. Not sure how that fits into your theories.