[Soccer mom]

I have read a lot on this site for the past few years about boundaries, T's who give reassurance/sympathy/validation and others who don't, T's who hug and others who don't, T's who stick to "normal" session length and others who are longer. Which brings me to my question: what is "normal" in all of it? I know it can depend on the therapist's temperament as well as what the client needs.

When I questioned my ex-T. about her lack of reassurance, she said she was reassuring but then literally said she didn't have to prove it when I asked for examples. She told me she shouldn't have to validate my feelings - they should stand on their own. She didn't always return my texts (even just about appointment time changes). When I mentioned to her that I know another T. who emails, she said she would question her and her boundaries.

Current, amazing T. is completely different. Very reassuring/validating/sympathetic. My session length is much longer but I'm private pay/out of pocket and she's semi-retired. She is so much more vulnerable with me and open to emails. So, where does my mind go? To my stupid ex-T. who said I shouldn't get any of those things. It's not good for me.

I find myself wondering what if it's not good for me. Current T. and I have talked about it and she assures me that this is how she's operated for decades, hasn't had to terminate anyone and molds her interactions with clients based on their needs, etc. So, she emails with me because I tend to disclose more that way and I don't email often (not taking advantage of her time).

I hate that I question any of it. And, I've realized that I'm sitting here questioning a T. caring about me. Unfortunately, I had a bad relationship with my mom and ex-T. I have learned was emotionally abusive. Just trying to accept all of this.

[ruh roh]

I don't know what's standard, but I'm pretty sure my therapist would question therapists who pathologize and/or shame people the way your former therapist did.

Maybe it's not what a therapist is supposed to give so much as what's helpful to the person. There can be disagreement between client and therapist on that, but I don't think the therapist's approach should routinely feel like crap to the client.

[JaneTennison1]

I don't know what the "rule" is but I'd go by progress. If this T is helping you then it is right for you.

[Merecat]

I think therapy can look very different depending on modality. Classic Psychodynamic T's are all about the therapeutic frame (same time every week, very little by way of personal disclosure, fairly clear, firmly held boundaries). T's who are person centred are all about the relationship (offering a therapeutic relationship empathy, congruence and positive regard) - depending on their practice setting they might be more flexible in some areas - or not etc etc. I'm generalising massively here but you get my drift.

I honestly don't think there can ever be a fixed rule book about what is and isn't ok, more that different T's will work for different people at different times. My T is very flexible, often runs over session time but all of our work happens in session. I contact her only for scheduling but if I need an extra session she'll always try to accommodate me. She does share a little of her day to day life but not so much that it distracts from my work. I couldn't work with someone who was very rigid about time and also couldn't work with someone who gave nothing of themselves at all but others might feel very safe with tight boundaries and a blank screen.

I think there are T's who inadvertently or purposely foster dependence by encouraging or insisting on between session contact, initiating use of touch, being overly affectionate etc and I do think that's less appropriate because it can really blur the lines between professional and personal where therapy potentially turns into a paid for friendship or parenting thing that can be very hard for the client to leave. In my view that feels exploitative. The boundaries keep both the T and the client safe, they don't need to look exactly the same in every relationship but they should be consistent within the relationship, if that makes sense?

[justdesserts]

Originally Posted by ruh roh

I don't know what's standard, but I'm pretty sure my therapist would question therapists who pathologize and/or shame people the way your former therapist did.

Maybe it's not what a therapist is supposed to give so much as what's helpful to the person. There can be disagreement between client and therapist on that, but I don't think the therapist's approach should routinely feel like crap to the client.

I very much agree with this. Shame coming from a therapist has no place in therapy. It's the therapist's job to accept the client, and work within whatever boundaries they've set and agreed upon together. A good therapist doesn't have to email or text, but they do have to handle the client's feelings around those issues and keep their own ego out of it.

[Rive.]

In no particular order: consistency, honesty, their time, moral/professional ethics and professional skills/knowledge to meet each client’s needs.

The differences you mention stem from which school of thought and/or personal belief these Ts subscribe to. As such, there will inevitably be much variability: e.g. amongst those who hug and don’t, those who validate or challenge etc. This is where clients can choose - upon interviewing many different types of professionals, which one (i.e. therapy modality and person) they best click with.

I have often found myself wondering the very same thing Soccer mom. I have had five different ts who were very different in their way of working. Some had very right boundaries and others very loose. I find myself working better with the ts who have loose boundaries.
I tend to agree with ruh Roh about pathologising shame and needs and wants, this is a ts projection onto a client and it has no place in therapy. It's not right or wrong to have needs and wants it's normal and it's all about exploring these together and a finding a way with your therapist to work together. Ts tend to be curious about why you need their reassurance and I think your ex t missed out on some really good work with you here and I am sorry she was so awful and unkind. Perhaps she thought she was doing you a favour but it turned out she wasn't and was missy tuned to your needs from the start.
Since I started seeing clients I can see clearly how there needs to be flexible boundaries with most clients and strict with some, this is a decision you make with the client by discussing their needs. A t does not get to decide what you need and don't need. Therapy is a collaboration between t and client, that's were the respect, healing and self actualisation begins. I really see progress being made with your new t

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[Soccer mom]

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

I have often found myself wondering the very same thing Soccer mom. I have had five different ts who were very different in their way of working. Some had very right boundaries and others very loose. I find myself working better with the ts who have loose boundaries.
I tend to agree with ruh Roh about pathologising shame and needs and wants, this is a ts projection onto a client and it has no place in therapy. It's not right or wrong to have needs and wants it's normal and it's all about exploring these together and a finding a way with your therapist to work together. Ts tend to be curious about why you need their reassurance and I think your ex t missed out on some really good work with you here and I am sorry she was so awful and unkind. Perhaps she thought she was doing you a favour but it turned out she wasn't and was missy tuned to your needs from the start.
Since I started seeing clients I can see clearly how there needs to be flexible boundaries with most clients and strict with some, this is a decision you make with the client by discussing their needs. A t does not get to decide what you need and don't need. Therapy is a calibration between t and client, that's were the respect, healing and self actualisation begins. I really see progress being made with your new t

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I forgot that you have clients now. I think one of the major issues I've realized with ex-T. is that I did have needs and ones she could meet but she was unwilling. She was willing to hear about my needs but then wouldn't help me explore them. And, for the first time in my life, I ignored my intuition and tried to make the relationship work. Your response reminds me of something my current T. said - she wants to meet her clients where they are. So, if right now I need more support that is ok. Ex-T. wanted me to change how I viewed my needs without any flexibility on her part. She would say "there's your need of sympathy coming out" but would not offer any sympathy. So, the more she was unsympathetic/invalidating/unreassuring, the more I wanted it. You're right, she missed some great opportunities for work by letting her own insecurities/temperament get in the way.

Ex-T. made me feel that no therapist should meet any of your needs - those are for you to figure out in your real life. I understand to a degree but if I need validation right now to understand my feelings, then that is a basic need that could be fulfilled.

After receiving a bill from her, I told her I didn't realize our sessions were only 45 min (vs 50-60). I said I wished she had gone over boundaries/time/etc. She said she did. I said she never did and she said I must not have been listening. Regardless, I had been seeing her for 7 years off and on and consistently after my mom died. And, of course, she never went over them even after that comment or ask me if I need to talk about it. So, yes, she put a lot of shame on me.

Glad you've noticed the progress with new T. Friends and family have said how much better I am now that I'm away from ex-T. I didn't realize how much damage she was doing until I got away from her.

Originally Posted by Soccer mom

I forgot that you have clients now. I think one of the major issues I've realized with ex-T. is that I did have needs and ones she could meet but she was unwilling. She was willing to hear about my needs but then wouldn't help me explore them. And, for the first time in my life, I ignored my intuition and tried to make the relationship work. Your response reminds me of something my current T. said - she wants to meet her clients where they are. So, if right now I need more support that is ok. Ex-T. wanted me to change how I viewed my needs without any flexibility on her part. She would say "there's your need of sympathy coming out" but would not offer any sympathy. So, the more she was unsympathetic/invalidating/unreassuring, the more I wanted it. You're right, she missed some great opportunities for work by letting her own insecurities/temperament get in the way.





After receiving a bill from her, I told her I didn't realize our sessions were only 45 min (vs 50-60). I said I wished she had gone over boundaries/time/etc. She said she did. I said she never did and she said I must not have been listening. Regardless, I had been seeing her for 7 years off and on and consistently after my mom died. And, of course, she never went over them even after that comment or ask me if I need to talk about it. So, yes, she put a lot of shame on me.


Glad you've noticed the progress with new T. Friends and family have said how much better I am now that I'm away from ex-T. I didn't realize how much damage she was doing until I got away from her.

"Ex-T. made me feel that no therapist should meet any of your needs - those are for you to figure out in your real life. I understand to a degree but if I need validation right now to understand my feelings, then that is a basic need that could be fulfilled."

I disagree with your ex t in the above quote. A therapist cannot meet all of our needs but therapy is about exploring these needs together. Therapy is real and can be very reparative if your t is willing to explore how it is you need to heal. It seems very cruel for someone to know what you need to heal but to deny you of the chance to heal. It is like a doctor knowing you need a type of medicine to survive but withholding the medicine because he wants you to figure out how to cure yourself. Sometimes we need a little help and guidance, a push in the right direction. I think your needs are important and deserve to be met with respect, dignity and curiosity not shame. Perhaps she was shamed for being needy or having needs that weren't met part of growing up is getting some needs met and having others denied, your needs were within her means and yet she refused to met them. I find this behaviour cruel and shaming. I am glad you are getting some of those needs with new t. It amazes me how you had the courage to see another t after your experience with her!

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