transference as violation

Its all REAL LIFE, Truman! And trippin hes not "going" anywhere. We ALL get our narcissistic supplies right here! Not sayin its a bad thing; not sayin its a good thing; but i think its a thing!

I kind of view this in the same light as the abandonment thread. I don't think it's possible for something to be intrusive or violating without someone perceiving it that way. Similarly things that may not seem intrusive or violating to most people could totally feel that way to some.

As an extreme example, sort of like S&M. Never been my thing but who am I to tell someone it's abusive or humiliating if they arent perceiving it that way?

I can relate to both sides, having seen the goods and bads over the years. I don't think sweeping generalizations about anything are particularly helpful though.

I see a need to acknowledge that therapy can cause harm, not that all therapists do. It's a healthy thing to question that, I think. It has no bearing on anyone's experience of successful therapy, so I don't understand the backlash by those who are happy and satisfied. I would think they might feel compassionate, but that's me.

I'm glad I found a therapist that's been able to help, but I don't discount that it's been a long hard road to find one that did not misdiagnose or cause worse harm. And I don't discount that it happens to others. I could be wrong, but I think what Bud keeps raising is the need to be aware of the pitfalls and for the profession to be more upfront about it.

I think for me the question is whether or not the experiences I have in therapy, which are certainly in my real life, translate or “transfer”(?) to helping me function better in my life outside of therapy. And I’ve had lots of experiences in therapy that led me to function more poorly outside of therapy, and the fact that I justified those as just being part of the “process”, all goodness to therapy, all badness to me, was – I have finally come to consider -- most likely a part of dysfunctional ways of perceiving that I entered therapy with all those long years ago. And which lots of therapists either didn’t catch or fell into going along with because it suited . . .their narcissistic needs? Or else they didn’t know what or how to handle or help me with the underlying problem which is/was. . .??

I think bud keeps reopening an old wound instead of getting it taken care of, and wanting us to look at how infected its getting, and thats whats bothering me. I cant not look. It is what it is.

The thing is, though, you can not look. Go outside. Plant a tree. Fly a kite. Read some self-help literature on a park bench. Whatever it is you think other people should do to get their wounds 'taken care of' because their posting might be uncomfortable to witness--you can do that, too.

If one goes to therapy with desire to talk about themselves or issues at hand ( which many people do), it's very likely that therapist would interpret or maybe suggest. But if one doesn't want to disclose and doesn't want interpretation, then they don't have to disclose. Or they might disclose but ask not to interpret. It's not mandatory. people can disclose one thing and not the other or depends on the issue, not disclose anything whatsoever.

I share what I want to share. I don't really understand your point of view.

You make it sound as therapists are so strong and powerful but grown up clients are so weak and powerless that all they can do is to follow whatever t wants them to do. I understand that abusive therapists might brainwash clients up to the point that they cannot think for themselves, and it's the same as abusive relationship. But I just don't see able adults being so weak that they have no choice what they heck they do or talk about. Unless they are dealing with abusive bad therapists, most adults are able to think for themselves

I think you are eliminating "choice" from therapy. Eliminating the fact that we, as adults, have choices. It's not always easy to make choices and it's not easy to leave abusive therapists and I understand that totally etc but it doesn't mean there is no choice. It also doesn't mean that every therapist is violating, coercing and abusing anyone .


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I agree.

I also agree about the lack of compassion from others who say they have a great therapy relationship. It's painful to see those people be so hateful and negative toward those of us who have suffered greatly in therapy. There is a lot of blaming of the clients instead of the therapists.

And what if someone just said "get over your horrible childhood" or whatever? To me getting over an abusive damaging therapy experience is not that different. EXCEPT the therapist was paid to help you get over the awful childhood or whatever. It takes time and when you have to go it alone, no therapy because how can you trust therapy now, then there should be some mercy and compassion from others, BUT THERE rarely is. Sad. To me that shows therapy is not as helpful as people think it is.

How is posting about a bad therapy experience over and over any different from posting about your horrible mother or father or whatever over and over? There are those who go on and on and on about that. Is that wrong or bad? I think people need to vent and sometimes it takes a long time to get stuff out of your system. If one doesn't want to read it then don't read it. Pretty simple to me.

Okay. I'll butt out.

Who here is being hateful towards people who have suffered from therapy? I don't have a particularly great relationship with my therapist (really really not) yet I don't come here and make sweeping generalizations about how therapy is inherently hurtful and inefficient and therapists are all manipulative. That's what I think some peple may object to.

I have to concur, offering a different (positive) perspective or opinion is not the same as backlash, invalidation or hatefulnesss...


Idk, seems I must be way off base but I thought we were all discussing our experiences in relation to the OP and the article.

I do think all therapists are manipulative. I think it is what they are all trained to do. But if you don't think yours is, how does it matter what I believe about them?

It is completely fine to have a discussion about how therapy can cause harm, and the potential "pitfalls" of the profession. Very few people on this forum have expressed a problem with the topic itself. What we HAVE expressed is a dislike for how far some people are taking it. There are some pretty extreme opinions that are expressed by people who are, understandably, upset about a bad experience they had with a therapist, and as much as I feel for these people I am bothered by how it has become borderline hateful at this point.

I feel a lot of compassion for those who have been harmed in therapy. However, I don't think the majority of therapy clients have been harmed to that extent. There are members of this forum who act like that is the case.

I believe the therapeutic relationship is similar to other relationships; for example, I had a friend a few years ago who for a long time seemed really supportive and sympathetic, but then we had a misunderstanding/disagreement, and she flipped and became highly unpleasant. It got ugly, and we never spoke again. We cut off all communication. It took some time to get over it, but whenever I see her around now I usually give her an over-the-top smile and wave at her sarcastically. She normally proceeds to ignore me.

While I understand that therapy is different due to payment and a power imbalance, it ultimately comes down to a relationship between two people. It can go wrong, and inevitably will for some people. I am not excusing those therapists who are actually unethical and abusive, I would never do that! But to claim that therapy itself is abusive/intrusive/violating or whatever is frankly unreasonable in my opinion.

Here's why the backlash from those who are satisfied with their therapy: what we experience is in fact a backlash because we believe therapy is good and useful. We acknowledge that there are some terrible, incompetent therapists out there who have undoubtedly caused people significant harm, and that is upsetting. We are all here to support these people if they want to talk about it. But if all they do is attack the system, I am going to have a problem with that.

And I know a lot of people say that they had a string of bad therapists before they found one they liked, but that is precisely why you interview several therapists before choosing one, isn't it? A lot of these people are not going to be the right fit for you, and you will end up feeling like they are incompetent because they annoyed you or upset you with something they said. It may have been some transference on their part, which I won't defend, but that doesn't mean they haven't been helpful therapists to a lot of other people.

I had a friendship that ended really badly. We ended up being completely wrong for each other, and once we realised that we "terminated" the relationship. Therapists are humans, too, and should be allowed to do the same thing, but because they are professionals they should also handle it in a way that won't damage the client, or at least try to limit the damage. Now, I can see that Bud here had a therapist who failed to do so, and he is understandably, and rightfully, upset about it. You have my sympathy for what happened to you, BudFox, it was wrong and unethical and should not have happened. But the subsequent war that you have declared on the profession is not okay as far as I am concerned.

It's like finding some poisonous weeds in your fields (wild oats, just to use an example) and reacting by burning down your crops instead of acknowledging that there are some weeds among the grains that need to be removed. You may not get them all, sometimes they are well hidden and difficult to catch, and as a result they may spread and multiply again which is why you'll never quite be free of them - and then there are those bastard neighbouring farmers who don't go over their crops as carefully as they should and let even more of them slide under their radar. So poisonous wild oats are allowed to continue to fester, and it's just one of those things that suck, but we don't burn our crops to the ground because of it. (This analogy has been brought to you by a farmer's daughter. )

Should we look out for pitfalls and signs of a bad therapist (or a therapist who simply isn't right for us)? Of course we should. But a few wild oats doesn't mean you should set fire to your crops.

That said, it may be that the therapy profession is one of those fields where the farmer is too lazy to search thoroughly for the wild oats which allows it to spread and come back even worse the following year. It still won't diminish the value of the good crops, but you will now need to get a handle on the problem. It is going to take a lot of years, however, before the wild oats spread to the point where they can be seen just from standing at the edge of the field because there are so many of them. You can't avoid seeing them, they are everywhere, and NOW you may consider setting fire to your crops.

Fair enough.

Therapy may help some people. I have no reason to disagree with someone who believes it has. But it is not useful for all. I find yoga and meditation much more useful for me than therapy for helping me with anxiety. The therapist was total crap for that. I have found a use for the therapists I hire, but it is not the use most report here. Also, there are a lot of different reasons people resort to therapy. Therapy/therapists are rarely forthcoming, in my experience, about the potential harm or its unlikeliness to help for certain things. They do not give adequate warnings or explain what they are doing and why in a lot of instances.

Which is the crux of the problem. It seems people care a lot about the opinion other people have of therapy or therapists.

Not in this thread (so far), unless I missed it, but I have seen what I would call blaming (along the lines of "therapy works for those who do the work!" thus implying that if your therapy failed you did not do the work, ergo, it is your fault) from the one side and what I would call condescension from the other (along the lines of "you've drunk the therapy Kool-Aid so much you don't even know you're drinking the Kool-Aid," implying that the speaker has been brainwashed). (I have no specific posters or threads in mind and these aren't actual quotes.) Both are exactly the sort of responses that get people's backs up. And from there it's a slippery slope.

I think ruh roh is right, one's opinion of therapy may have nothing to do with one's relationship to one's therapist. I am suspicious of the practice of therapy and the theories on which the profession is based, but I have found two semi-helpful therapists. One can think therapy is a great idea, but never find a good therapist. Just because someone says "I believe X about therapy," it does not mean that YOUR therapist is being criticized/excused for bad behavior.

I agree, but sometimes I see statements saying that specific behaviours or techniques used by therapists are unethical or abusive. If my therapist has successfully used those approaches, I am inclined to be offended by that, because it is a sweeping statement that suggests that my therapist is a bad one. But that's just me.

Maybe I shouldn't feel this protective of my therapists.

It's totally natural to be protective of someone who gets very close to you.

There are practices by some therapists that I question and would not want for myself and think can under the right combination of circumstances turn wrong, such as touch, but a goodly number of people on here have been helped by hugs or hand-holding with their therapist. But that is their call, just as it is really their call to decide whether their therapist is good or bad.

It's like when I hear anti-doctor statements or jokes, I tend to get my back up, since both my parents were doctors. But I know whoever has said it does not have my parents specifically in mind.

I don't see it as wrong or bad posting about abusive parent as much as one wants and needs same as about bad therapist experiences.

It would be a bit different than if a person posted on and on that all mothers are inherently abusive and evil. It stops being about his painful experience. Many people would get hurt and offended with such general statements. It doesn't mean one should not posting, just that the one could expect opposing opinions with examples of good mothers they know.

Unless there is a disclaimer that people could only respond certain way, people would respond in different ways

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If people want to come here and post about how they think therapy is then what difference does it make to others? LOTS of people post here in a general way about how positive they think therapy is and no one says that is wrong.

Why do some want to control what others post here about bad therapy? Aren't we all mature enough to realize that others are posting their own opinions?

And I have been treated in a hateful way and people have said hateful, personal things to me about my OPINIONS. Tells me a lot about that person and a lot about how helpful therapy is for them.

I also think that to some extent, being faced with the two types of pro and con responses that ATAT pointed out can have the effect of forcing / making people retreat further into entrenched positions in ways (and with a speed) that they otherwise may not.

Also, I've found that in posting online, moderation in style and content tends to be under-valued -- essentially, moderation for the most part feels / reads boring.

So, unless one is willing to look closely at all other nuances that are at play in inducing one to post online with a specific position, it appears to be kinda difficult to change the dynamics all around.

I think that is true.

FOr me, if people want to marry their therapists or hold hands with them or move in with them I could not care less.

I just think the other side of the issue should be allowed here too.

I don't think anyone said that any type of threads or opinions shouldn't be allowed. Of course they should. I didn't see any threads closed because someone said that all therapists suck. Sure threads about specific painful therapy experiences are generally getting a lot of support ( and rightly so as abused and mistreated people need support!) but from what I observed threads that are based on generalizations might not get as much support simply because of nature of generalizations. But most certainly it doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed.

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There are perceptions, and then there are intrinsic qualities or characteristics that can be observed. The two are distinct, both are valid, and both can be discussed productively. I happen to find it helpful to attempt general characterizations (not the same as sweeping generalizations) of the therapy culture, as a means for recovering from destructive therapy. Not doing so would make it pretty much impossible. People are welcome to disagree with the characterizations, but mostly what I see is people objecting to the scrutiny and questioning itself.

People have said PLENTY of times the negative threads should not be allowed. Lots of times. I've been here ten years and have seen it LOTS.