transference as violation

I say it ALL THE TIME!!!

Stephan Crane wrote poem that I often think of here

Once there came a man

Once there came a man
Who said,
"Range me all men of the world in rows."
And instantly
There was terrific clamour among the people
Against being ranged in rows.
There was a loud quarrel, world-wide.
It endured for ages;
And blood was shed
By those who would not stand in rows,
And by those who pined to stand in rows.
Eventually, the man went to death, weeping.
And those who staid in bloody scuffle
Knew not the great simplicity.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...-stephen-crane

I don't agree. I don't think many people oppose questioning. What they oppose is sweeping generalizations. If you say transference is akin to rape and inherently violative, and for me transference in therapy has changed my life, you can see where that will get my hackles up. Because I 100% disagree.

If you.posed it as "do you think there are ways transference can be misused/abused to hurt the client?" I would unequivocally say "Yes! It definitely can!"

There is a big difference in those statements.

Using the abusive mother example, for me I will never understand the attachment people have to their mothers. My own mother was the single most destructive force I've ever personally encountered. But I'm not going to.say motherhood is inherently violative and dangerous because of the power parents have over children ( which far exceeds the power a therapist has over an adult client and to me the sheer power parents have over their children is fundamentally terrifying and I wonder if ANY child I know is really safe). And if I did, people would argue vehemently with me because of their attachment to their own mothers, which they experience as good and loving..

For ME my therapist IS my good, loving mother.

But if the generalization does not fit, then just disagree. It is not personal. I think pepsi sucks. I would never consume it. Coke is the only cola worth drinking and the only real carbinated cola beverage.
I believe that-but I can't stop people from drinking pepsi. I am friends with people who hate lawyers. I am friends with people who make their living being a therapist-and it is not like they don't know how much disdain I hold for their profession.
I think the arguing is fun, but some seem to take it personally.

There is a lot of generalization on both sides. So what? I don't care about the positive generalizations. I disagree but I will not tell someone to shut up about it.

I did not say anyone should shut up. But its not surprising when people react badly to sweeping generalizations. So if people want to make them, then it should be fine if others disagree. Especially if you are going to liken stuff to rape. Nobody said anyone had to not post anything.

People have told the ones who post negatively about therapy to shut up and go away. They really have. It's been done many times.

There are people who are seen as posting negatively about therapy who I credit with helping to save my life after my therapist abandoned me. So I hope people can understand that it is important to have different viewpoints represented even if it seems like sweeping generalizations are made. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and as long as it falls within community guidelines they can express that opinion here. On both sides.

I agree with this. I think these arguments are really interesting, and I generally like vigorous debate in real life.

I do get a little confused at why people take this particular issue so personally, though. I don't agree that people necessarily get angry and defensive at people who overgeneralize about therapists or mothers because they have a good relationship with their own. I adore my therapist and I loved my mother very much, but if someone wants to say that all therapists are awful and all mothers are terrible, it doesn't offend me. Instead I think, "Gosh that person must have been terribly hurt by their therapist/mother/whoever".

I think it's really important for people to have outlets to describe their pain in whatever way that suits them. But then I don't know how to reconcile the fact that for some people this will result in sweeping generalizations, and for some it will be a hurt defensiveness against sweeping generalizations. I feel like both reactions are coming out of people's pain - maybe the answer is more in trying to understand each other's pain than fixating on the generalizations or offendedness? I don't know.

Well said. That about covers it.

Part of the reason I throw out somewhat controversial stuff is because I find it instructive to see how people respond. Helps me understand the therapy system and culture, which in turn helps me understand why it was damaging. A healthy system should be able to absorb this stuff. The fact that people respond by making it personal, or attacking the messenger ad-hominem style, or just objecting on principle… what does that say?

I certainly never said that. What I said was therapy as a system has certain inherent qualities or aspects, specifically in regard to the way it handles the expression of deep, intense feelings and longings and desires (especially sexual or romantic, though I may not have made that clear). This is very different from what you said above, and if people are not willing to slow down and discern what has actually been said, then it's a mess.

As for therapists being so strong and able to brainwash adult clients, I dont think that, but I also think you greatly underestimate the power that therapists do have over some clients. Just read the threads on this forum. No other evidence is needed.

How many people here could walk away from therapy tomorrow, in one piece? Probably not many. Seems to me this is, in part, because the process has exposed them in ways that they could neither control, nor possibly even recognize as it was happening.

I feel like it might say less about therapy itself than it does arguing on the internet, or people's attitudes toward authority, or people's feelings about being challenged. I don't know. I think it's hard to extricate all those other factors from how people feel about therapy.

Also, it's all very factional. It's not like everyone is responding the same way - various factions respond in various ways, to different aspects of these issues.

That sucks! Wow. Why the heck they think it shouldn't be allowed? I disagree with some things ( particularly generalizations and stereotyping as I find black and white thing unproductive) but I think as long as people don't violate guidelines they can post whatever the heck they want!

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I don't see people generalizing that all therapists are wonderful. I have not seen a single post saying that. I see most people say that some therapists are good and some are bad and therapy works for some and not for others, and then there are people who state that therapy itself is a bogus and so on. I haven't seen positive generalizations.

But I agree people can say whatever they want within guidelines. No need to shut anyone up.

It's just inevitable that when people make generalizations, others would point it out. It's no matter what about, therapy or anything else. It's nothing personal, it's just too simplistic for people to accept as truth. It's not all black and white.

Therapy is damaging for some people and helpful for others. For many different reasons. It's not that black and white.

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I didn't say transference is akin to r***. The article said it. There is a big difference. Sometimes I wonder if people are even reading posts, or reading them carefully, before reacting.

I did say that there is something about the transference scenario that is in essence violative. That is my belief based on experience and much reading. It's not my original idea. Plenty of others have said it.

So because some people oppose generalizations, or more accurately discussion of systemic issues, the rest of us should refrain from having these discussions?

If this is about sexual or romantic, then why isnt it in the romantic feelings forum?? Youve made it clear NOW.

I said especially, not exclusively.

I agree. I am in the process of sorting out transference with my counselor and reading some of these posts has disturbed me. I have chosen to stay away from this thread until I saw una's post.

Transference, to me, is a feeling of safety and connection with another human being that I don't owe anything to experience. Also the feeling and experience that I can give back what I am receiving without feeling that it has to be more than just a sharing of emotion.

Hope that makes sense.

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Understood and you should be able to talk about that openly on this forum. For me therapy ended up being very unsafe, it profoundly increased feelings of disconnection, and was harmful in many other ways. I should be able to talk about that openly. Part of how I do that is by indicting the system that so clearly failed.

When people talk openly about therapy transforming their lives in a positive way, that could be very disturbing for people who've been traumatized by therapy. But people do it all day long. I don't think it even occurs to people that this might be so. It's considered acceptable. Talking about how therapy has been ruinous, and why, is considered unacceptable. It's a reflection of the whole system, which treats adverse outcomes as unfortunate isolated events that should be quickly forgotten, and the victim should be encouraged to get with another therapist asap.

BudFox. Please forgive me. There are two sides to every coin and it occurs to me that what you see, is based on which side you are looking at. Thank you for sharing your post.

I completely understand where you are coming from. THIS COULD BE TRIGGERING. I understand because I have experienced something that I feel is much similar, and would like to share it with you, so you trust that I do understand.

I have not been to the gynecologist in many years. It's been at least 15 years. The last time I went, I was touched in a very inappropriate way and dissociated out of the moment. I have no idea what happened in the time that I can't account for, but it distresses me greatly.

He was a very trusted person to me and had been the doctor who I saw with both of my boy's births. He was not a "friend" but there was a connection there, a closeness, a trust. That all came shattering down on me years later. When my mind "found it" and I could share it with someone. My counselor.

I believe this maybe, in someway, similar to what you have posted about what you experienced. If not, forgive me.

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I didn't mean people say "therapy is always wonderful." I see people saying "Oh just tell your therapist about (whatever certain thing it is). They will help you." THings like that. The therapist might well end up damaging the person. There are generalizations all the time about how the therapist WILL work through the issue in a flawless way when this may or may not happen.

If we are specifically discussing romantic and sexual desires for the therapist, then it wasn't specified before.

But I am not sure how it's system's fault. If it's being provoked, it's specific therapist's fault. I agree that therapists who provoke and encourage their clients' sexual desire for them are invasive and violating and unethical etc or if they handle it in shaming and rude manner. But I am not sure it's fault of the whole system.

Just because client and therapist sit in a small room doesn't mean the system itself set sexual or romantic tension up. I just don't understand how it's system's fault?

By this logic any professional relationship that puts two people in the room ( plenty of those) is set up to create romantic tension? I really don't understand

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Therapy might help. No one knows if it WILL help. It depends on your therapist and on many other factors.

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Its like Shariah law, like living under the Taliban. As a feminist, as a rational human being, I find it offensive.

I hear you. I think saying that its system's fault sends a message that people have no choice and no power, you put them in a room with another human being and they just become powerless and have romantic longings. If someone specifically manipulates me or seduces me or makes sexual comments, it's different. But as a general idea?

I meet my financial advisor one on one and he knows a lot about me and my not so good financial habits and I see him often. It's like saying that the system set it up for me to have romantic longings for him because we sit two people in a room and he knows a lot about me. Should we all avoid being alone with another person? Heck no.

If a specific therapist seduced a client then it's s different story. It's appalling and criminal

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It happens enough that even therapist are aware of it.