[Noitartst]

Hello; I have anxiety disorder, as well as panic attacks. I send the following to explain my background, and the help I seek from counselors, AKA shrinks. Specifically, per this:
The ONE Thing That Stops Every One Of Us From Achieving Greatness - Pick the Brain | Motivation and Self Improvement ... -bothered/
gameplan, I seek to escape apathy, and am looking for moral and emotional support.

Hopefully, I can find some, here; my current BHR counselor's balking, and frankly, the thought of doing anything that might make my family think well of me strikes me as disincentive to do it.
.......................................................................................................................
I write the following to any and all of my “counselors,” be they in the past, present, or future. In any case, familial turmoil stems from the following:

To really lay it on the table would involve explaining how me 'n my siblings were raised, which was fundamentally Christian. I had a very happy childhood, but after our father died, she became leader of the household, but was poor at it.

If you're always screaming, and acting frustrated, that doesn't command respect, let alone trust, and as an eldest son, I didn't simply feel bad, but I felt responsible, if in an ineffective way. I basically tried enforcing for someone that was not just erratic, reactive, and emotional, but simply bad at following through.

I should have instead tried providing leadership in her wake, but given my lack of understanding and confidence, I didn't.

I tried being the good son, the loyal son; I focused on schoolwork to the point of burnout, and just became a wreck by degrees. As my mother sank into menopausal depression, I was sinking into anxiety disorder, which would, over time, morph into something along the line of panic attacks.

Basically, I was trying to form some sort of working relationship with my mother, but it was dysfunctional, from the word "go." No it doesn't help that I've got Aspergers replete with loner tendencies, but in the end, I think my relationship with my family was taking a distinctly downward turn. I was learning to distrust my mother, my siblings, and in particular my brother Chris. I would, in time, ultimately come to distrust myself after a fashion.

Oh--and did I mention that we had a very intense sibling rivalry with lots of physical violence?

Add to that, values; like I said, we were taught to be devout, and I at that time, had chosen to be well, The Devoutest of the Devout, and yes, it was in part out of a kind solidarity with my mother, even if she didn't reciprocate.

Okay, here I am, nearly fifteen, siitin' in the back seat of my car, playing the the "shut up" game with Chris: "You shut up, no you shut up, no you..."

Now my mother had broken us up before, but this time, she had done so in an angry commanding way, that she had never done, before. She was feeling stressed, even as I was feeling stressed; I chose to key off of her, instead of just going back to dealing with Chris on "shut up" like I usually did, and instead chose to make it a Hill to Die On.

Was it wise? Hindsight wouldn't suggest it, but I was trying to take a stand. In time it became basically more isolating, and more infuriating that he didn't listen, and I just became obsessive on the topic.

Controlling? Can I see myself as controlling, given how I acted? I think so, but keep in mind—that and the anger largely stem from a sense of powerlessness to communicate; Hellen Keller was plenty smart, but being deaf and blind, she sure didn't show it, and wound up throwing perpetual tantrums.

My mother may be wrong, but she wasn't--and isn't--that awful—still, she's just my enemy that I must vanquish. She couldn't even get us boys to bring in wood, and always blamed us.

I don't trust her, and don't love, because that doesn't breed trust—only pain and betrayal. As Head of Household, she was nothing I want to be like, and all the talk of her being “admirable” by shrinks who've refused to admit she's earned my trust is simply reprehensible.

Look, shrinks—here's what I expect of you—both now, and in the future:

Validate my authority to my mother, and my family—both now, and in the future; I expect you to assist my confrontations, if nothing else. As a fundamentalist Christian, certain scriptural passages obligate her to at least submit to hostile cross-examination. She's earned my distrust, scripture affords me a measure of control, worst-come-to-worst, and I intend see her earn the reverse.

And if she doesn't well...a public recognition should suffice very nice, methinks. I need to destroy my current familial relationship, so destroy it I will.

I intend to be not just a participant in the family, and they will respect me—for my prerogative, if nothing else; if they despise me, but at least respect me for that much, then it's a sufficient start. To be clear, the “respect” I'm talking about is definitely not earned, but rather the type that affords you the right to press charges in case your house is defaced, and is never forfeit by way of motive. It's my call my choice, and I don't trust, so I think I'll exercise it, and we'll just see if they copy.

DO I love my mother? Yes—but that means I don't respect her passivity, or her “leadership.” She needs to take responsibility for her actions, and I intend to do just that. She and the others can talk all they want about my failures, but if they don't want to take responsibility for their own, then there's nothing to do, is there?

Look; you do not have to agree with my attitude, but you will back up my claim to authority—and also be prepared to back it up. I may feel shame, I may feel guilt, but that's not gonna stop me—I have authority, and I'll hold others to it. Any shrink of mine will at a minimum, support my red-line claims—full stop. I've felt afraid to assert myself for years, and now I'm finally going to push back; I fear I can't trust my family, haven't since childhood, and for that I'm taking action.

How do you think I feel about about people disrespecting my intellect? How do you think I feel about people using my shortcomings to negate my valid points? That galls, and I think it enough to gall anyone.

I also intend to confront all those shrinks who reused to validate my authority, and support me. They were hurtful, cowardly, and wrong. Is this bitterness,? No, friend—this is simply cleaning house, and anger works in getting attention, at least. If I'm gonna achieve anything, it'll start with securing victories where I can, and this is one of them.

Let us be clear: I wanna see respect for my authority, not some touchy-feely manipulation on my part, and resolving with my family means worlds more than ever getting a job again. I refuse to undermine my values, of which honor, integrity, and the like rank very high.

Facilitate, and I will be ever-so-grateful. I expect you to convey to my mother the following. If objectionable to to you, it can be re-worked, so long as it retains the essential gist:

Sally, your son has the authority, per your creed, to hold you accountable, and intends to do so. He does not need a perfect attitude, a perfect motive, and expects you to respect it. If not, then he is fully prepared to cut you out of his life, if he must, to make his point. Principle matters more to him than you, and if you do not share that, then so be it.

He distrusts you, and you have only wanted to bribe the gap, as opposed to bridge it. For years. You say that trust is earned, and he agrees; you don't care about his integrity, forcing him to choose between it and you, and he's giving up.

You can't support him, given you despise him, and he doesn't have to take it. He'd be willing to give you another chance, but all the same, he's not holding his breath. If not, then at least we could raise the dispute to an intellectual dispute of Scripture and seek mediation, but you've seemed uninterested, and that is a shame.

Lack of caring for the truth is what really galls him, and he'd like to see you show some. Your perceived sloppiness angers, and rather than give him reason to trust, you shows reason to distrust still more.

As to being “vengeful” he's not going to stop, whether you think it is, or not; he'd be more merciful if prerogative and duty weren't on the line, but we are where we are. You don't respect him, dismiss his logic as black-and-white, and then wonder why he's disgusted.

He sees the term “black-and-white-thinking” as your way of rejecting his reasons out of hand, and if you want him to trust you again, show him he's wrong. Basically, he'd like the following to be defined, namely:
1. What he can ask of you.
2. What you can ask of him.

If not, well, he tried, and you were unwilling.

Forgive his suspicion, but given your track record, he's looking for signs of concrete reciprocation. Do that, and he just may give more flexibility, but we're just not there, are we?

Trust comes from showing adherence to common values; you haven't shown it, and as a consequence, he feels isolated and alienated within the family. So? Show him he's wrong—he wishes you would; when he calls you a hypocrite, he means It

Two ways to go in earning trust with him: Justify the ignoring of Scripture and all that it entails, or else follow it to the logical conclusion. It's very simple request, coming from someone who relishes confrontations. Yes, he likes battle, but wouldn't do so if he didn't believe in what he's doing, and you need to believe that.

Capice?

For my part, after you dispense this, I in term, affirm with this:

Mom, I've found you're a bad listener, and I wish you weren't. Some may say I can't be trusted, but I can't trust them, though I wish I could, that goes double for you.

What do I want? Keep your word, do your duty, and start over. Hook me to a lie detector, and I'll testify to my motives there. I have stuck to my duty, and it's because I believe in confronting you to the right thing. I don't doubt what I've done, and I'd do it over., not the least because none's convinced otherwise.

I shouldn't need witness to prove my credibility, but since it is needed, I have sent them. I care, mom, and I wouldn't do all this if I didn't.

Start over? Yeah—let's do it! Be consistent, follow the text to the logical outcome, or else justify your deviations, and face the consequences of doing so. I'd love to discuss these things, for all your claims of my motives not caring—I seek dialog.

Here is a message to a former mentor I intend to endorse:

Gary, Doras: You refused to validated my authority over my mother; wrong. Scripture gives me all needed authority to confront my family, but you didn't help—my authority is self-evident.

Goal: Recognition of my prerogative by my family; they hafta submit of gut God—I don't care.
If not: Public recognition and validation by my family.
Principle takes precedent over relationships.
Timeline: Sixty days.
Notes: I don't care if it's called “revenge” or not—confrontation with family is my goal, and to that end, you'd best support, shrink; I care about principle, whether anyone else does, or not. If you don't like “how,” simply show a better way for me to get what I want! And if they don't engage, then we will publicly rebuke that decision. This is a war, for my future, my integrity, and all that refuse to assist are obstacles.

The best of my seeking “revenge” is determination, conviction, honor, and yes, enthusiasm. I can get all the revenge I seek, and that's to make a point—I don't need to be merciful, I don't need to be loving, but I need to be right—and so I am.

Acknowledging this will indeed be painful, but though you may be infuriated, my shrink 'n others concur. They think you're wrong, and I have the signatures to prove it.

Believing the Bible gives me control over you, whether you recognize it or not, and you haven't. Recognize that, and common ground is restored; without it, what have I common with you 'n Chris, anyway?

To Shrink:

You will support me confronting my mother as a test of loyalty;if I "moved on," you'd approve--but would you do so if I chose to confront? Do so, and you earn my trust; if not, you're simply undermining my claim to authority, and overcoming apathy, which will not be brooked.

I have every right to demand revenge, and you will at least acknowledge my prerogative to do so.

[Luce]

I am not sure if I understand you correctly: Are you saying you want a counsellor or psych to explain to your mother that she has wronged you and she now needs to submit herself to your authority?

[Noitartst]

Well, if she's prepared to take her own creed seriously, yes; I'm seeking moral support in criticizing her, and going forward. How can I even trust others if I can't trust myself?

If I'm working on a project, how can I lead? That's mostly why I'm constantly angry and frustrated, and exasperated I never get any support and solidarity, via my shrink and family.

I'm also trying to figure out why I'm having a hard time working with people from adult to adult, and that's the issue--I can't work with people, because the boundary issues simply aren't resolved.

Believing the Bible gives me a degree of control over you, whether you recognize it or not, and you haven't. Recognize that, and common ground is restored; without it, what have I common with you 'n Chris, anyway?

Look, Mom; there there needs to be respect for what is mine, as well as what is yours instead of confusion, and you refuse to clarify, and keep these things blurry. Quit trying to use my aspergers to justify claiming I'm thinking in black-and-white, or something like that.

What are our spheres? Do you realize how hard it is because you won't define, and there's no reason to trust. I'm going to keep confronting, keep attacking, until I find a reason, because I want it resolved.

The sooner the better.

Start to see? I don't see how to be assertive, so I just cling to the periphery of the family, because I don't see how to work with them, and I bash 'em over the head with with Scripture because they did the same.

The reason I blast them, is because I really want a working partnership, and if so, I'm going to be fully present, and that's angry.

The article that's guiding me out of this quagmire is here.

Look. I'm willing to accept bench marks, for a token of trust.

[Luce]

I am not sure you will find a mental health professional who will help you to 'blast' another person. They can help you explore your relationships with others and why you feel the way you do, but generally speaking they can't really support you to 'change' another person. The only person you have the power to change is you.

For instance they could help you develop assertiveness within yourself. They can help you explore positive ways to interact with others and express your needs / thoughts / feelings with them. They can help you to develop authentic reciprocity in relationships. They can help you to understand your own self and your strengths and limitations a little better. But they can't really express your feelings for or to your mother for you. Only you can do that.

[Noitartst]

Well, I'm try to find motivation in escaping apathy, and focusing what I truly care about, for one. I doubt my family will change; I'm prepared for that, in fact.

As to helping me express my feeling,s I really think I need that; if not, then at the least, I seek a witness, and validation.

I want someone else to send messages, because I want someone else to observe the exchange.

We could also enumerate my control options.

Here is another question:
How do assert my anger and authority in a constructive manner? I need to do it, and the quicker, the better. I'm doing this, and I need to get a move-on with life.

Simply put: Life control. Is my goal.

[unaluna]

What exactly is stopping you from getting on with your life? Youre presumably an adult; you can pretty much do whatever you want to do, go wherever you want to go. You dont NEED apologies from anyone. You dont NEED permission. You might need a plan. You might need help with that plan. I dont understand about needing a witness. Unless by witness you mean help or support. But a witness wont give you approval per se. You need to give that to yourself. I think youve got it.

[Noitartst]

Well, I'm apathetic, and for some reason, I seem to want recognition; I'm trying to overcome apathy, and this is the way you do -it--focus on what you care about.

Okay--this is closest to the surface--let's focus on it; okay, here's what the Bible says--you claim to obey the book, here's what it says; follow it. Call me angry, but I'm tired of those that claim to do something they don't.

And then, move on to something else, if I choose.

Right now, pursuing a job doesn't seem to motivate; and, I need to wake up in the morning, better; I've faced too much misery.

Do I want revenge? Yes, I guess so; am I entitled to it? Yes, I am; I can defend and justify it as far as can be imagined. Is it for the good of others--my victims, as well as myself? Yes--yes it is. How? well, if you're interested, I'll explain, but I need to restore a sense of control in my life, as well as overcome apathy.

Keep in mind, they are not the same goals, and certainly not one with forgiveness; I worked at "mercy," and gave up power, my boundaries, and myself.

That's why I'm consciously being unmerciful--it got me messed up, back in '06, '07. I'm focused simply on what I want, and a plan to achieve it; right now, I'm seeking a mouthpiece--doesn't need to agree with my attitude--just authority.

I'm trying to figure out why you think you have "authority" over anyone else in this world but yourself? Don't expect a therapist to help you declare your authority over anyone. That sounds abusive, quite honestly. The only person you have control and authority over is yourself. Make changes in your life for you. You can't change other people and all I hear is a desire to blast your family and tell them it's your way or the highway. Why not just hit the highway and cut to the chase?

[Luce]

Originally Posted by Noitartst

Do I want revenge? Yes, I guess so; am I entitled to it? Yes, I am; I can defend and justify it as far as can be imagined. Is it for the good of others--my victims, as well as myself? Yes--yes it is.

ARE you entitled to 'revenge'? I would say not. Hurting and harming someone physically is against the law. Hurting and harming someone emotionally is tyranny, and no psych could ethically help you to do it.
What you can do is work through those feelings within yourself in a therapeutic context.

REVENGE: Noun

1.the action of hurting or harming someone in return for an injury or wrong suffered at their hands.

synonyms: vengeance · retribution · retaliation · reprisal · requital ·

[Noitartst]

Okay--my family makes me feel disempowered; my fight with them is to gain a feeling of empowerment. Okay--what's a better way to achieve that? I want to feel good around them, but currently feel miserable.

the other option is choosing to cut them out of my life; picking fights with them serves that purpose, and if i I had more moral/emotionnal support from others, I think I'd be more explicit. As is, it has just become a toxic dump.

Look at this article, here.

I wish there was someone to help me rephrase my demands of my family, but we never get that far; they keep want to blame me for asking in the first place, balking, and guilt-tripping.

Also, I've been examining this article, here.

I need to be more selfish, and and I need to be better at saying "no."

[stopdog]

Are you seeing a therapist?

[unaluna]

And can you just be more specific? Are you in high school? College? What do you need from your family? What do they ask of you? Maybe we can help you negotiate a better situation. Everything is so vague right now.

[atisketatasket]

I don't understand why you need to pick a fight to get your family out of your life. You could just walk away; I've done it.

[peaches100]

Am I right in assuming that your mom claims to be a Christian and to follow Bible standards? If so, then I suggest you approach her with specific scriptures that support what you need from her.

But first - get it clear in your mind....What specifically do you want your family to do? What do you want them to stop doing? What changes could you ask for that help you feel empowered, if your family would agree to do them?

If you can pinpoint specific speech or actions you want your family to help you feel empowered, rather than disempowered, you can then find specific scriptures that fit your situation, and then share them with your mom.

[Noitartst]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

I don't understand why you need to pick a fight to get your family out of your life. You could just walk away; I've done it.

Thirty-seven; go ahead and judge me for being stupid, or whatever.

Partly, as I believe I said, I'm apathetic; I know not if you had that issue, when leaving; when leaving, I was literally screaming in the woods, with anger past the pain threshold, feeling totally out of control, totally helpless. I became apathetic to cope, but I still have the lost sense of control, disempowerment; moving on is good, but as the article said, the first step is to be more consciously selfish; the final step is "moving on." Trouble was, folks wanted me to move on without being "selfish," and that was a problem.

"Moving on" sans boundaries is stupid; basically, i'm trying to assert what this article here says about regaining life control:

Contrary to popular belief, it’s okay to be selfish – as long as it is done in moderation. After all, the only way we can be a positive influence in the lives of others is if we first become a positive influence in our own.

By becoming more selfish, we force ourselves into a position where we consider what will make us a better person. By default, this will usually have a positive effect on the people around us.

There are many productive ways to practice being selfish. The first, and most important way, is simply to begin taking care of you. Watch what you eat and try to exercise when you can. Be aware of your bad habits and negative thinking and replace these things with positive choices and thoughts. Make time during the day to take care of you.

There is a significant correlation between how you feel about yourself and you feel about life. Depression and a sense of dread can begin to seep into your thoughts and attitudes when you don’t take the time you need. Recognize these feelings when you become aware you are not doing what you could to take better care of yourself.

Be selfish. Do things that are good for you and will lead to feeling better about yourself and your life. Refrain from cutting corners. Purposeful selfishness will give you the confidence and momentum necessary to begin regaining control of your life.

Look--this which I found in the last few days, explains why I haven't been able to go forward for years; I'm caught in a trap, where, when I assert myself, look for help confronting my family--i.e. be selfish--they resist, and then when I then try to skip steps of asserting control and try to "move on," they praise and validate me to the heavens but if I'm not supported now, how will I be later?

In effect, they're supporting "forgiveness" and "moving on" as unselfish acts, not as selfish ones, and that angers me. I accept my familial rejection, but it would be easier if others, elsewhere, did validate what I was doing; it would make things easier.

As for my past and current issues with my family, they could be turned into boundaries, going forward; I accept rejection.

As to walking away, I left home a decade ago, but I've never felt like I cut cords; I still feel the need to be "unselfish," or whatever you wish to call it.

Look; if I confronted someone with a question, I would like an honest engagement with the question; if not, I'd like a witness to call a spade a spade, namely that it is wrong, cowardly, and in violation of a certain scriptural passage. Is that "control"?

May not establish trust, but that way avoids one less frustration; I genuinely want dialog, and having third party around framing things at a minimum derails stonewalling. There are quite a few folks I'd like to engage in this manner, starting with my family.

In any case, it's a start; I'd like help engaging the people who wronged me, and open dialog with them, have the witness tell them they're wrong, but try to have a conversation, if only to show the witness my efforts; if others won't listen, so be it; I'm moving towards passion and control, and it starts be reengaging others, even as knowing they likely won't listen. Again.

I don't know how to be selfish, really, and that is part of the issue; I don't want to fight with people, but how to get what I want? Fighting hasn't been effective in at least the way I've done it, but what would work?

On the Fourth of July, I was running a pinata at the family get-together, largely because I didn't feel comfortable, or know how to take charge; all my focus on anger is simply armor, because I feel like a doormat.

I can talk about my feelings candidly, but that hasn't been effective; I don't respect my own feelings, let alone the feeling of others, but I do respect logic and duty; stray from that, and we're gettin' in da weeds...

Originally Posted by peaches100

Am I right in assuming that your mom claims to be a Christian and to follow Bible standards? If so, then I suggest you approach her with specific scriptures that support what you need from her.

But first - get it clear in your mind....What specifically do you want your family to do? What do you want them to stop doing? What changes could you ask for that help you feel empowered, if your family would agree to do them?

If you can pinpoint specific speech or actions you want your family to help you feel empowered, rather than disempowered, you can then find specific scriptures that fit your situation, and then share them with your mom.

Hm...I could be very specific about this, of what I want from my family, and from others. I could write down a whole draft letter to her, and show it here, for review.

[atisketatasket]

No one is judging you or calling you stupid. As for being apathetic, yup, I had a similar feeling when trying to leave a bad relationship.

[unaluna]

Im getting a better sense of what you mean. When i first started seeing my current therapist, i told him i was never supported by my family. I didnt mean financially. They paid but i was always on a very short leash. My therapist kinda scoffed at me. I dont think he understood it wasnt just a short leash for my own good - it was more like a choke chain for their enjoyment. But i think he understands now. So how do you deal with this and move on. Arent you entitled to family backing like everyone else? Especially after all youve already invested? My advice would be - dont throw good money after bad.

[Noitartst]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

No one is judging you or calling you stupid. As for being apathetic, yup, I had a similar feeling when trying to leave a bad relationship.

Good; I've avoided panic attacks for a month, but that seems to be from avoiding doing anything my family would approve of, or by being "responsible."

I want to work again, but I don't wanna get no panic attack again; I fear looking for work again will trigger a panic attack, but at least I'm not blaming others for it; I can walk away, but I fear it will be a setback.

Any case, I'm still apathetic, and that is my big concern; I see no contradiction, in confronting others, whilst going on, and seeking a job. I don't feel in control of my life, and I'm confronting others to gain confidence,
right or wrong, to recover boundaries.

Originally Posted by unaluna

Im getting a better sense of what you mean. When i first started seeing my current therapist, I told him i was never supported by my family. I didn't mean financially. They paid but i was always on a very short leash. My therapist kinda scoffed at me. I dont think he understood it wasnt just a short leash for my own good - it was more like a choke chain for their enjoyment. But i think he understands now. So how do you deal with this and move on. Arent you entitled to family backing like everyone else? Especially after all youve already invested? My advice would be - dont throw good money after bad.

Well, it sounds like your family is worse than mine; as for my shrink, she's a paid BHR shrink from the Washington State Government.

Look; what I'm trying to do is set, or reset, my boundaries with my family. Shrinks, on the other hand, wanna focus on what I say with my family, or how I say it, but when I state it as , "I'm right, and you're wrong," she balks.

I'd be happy to rephrase "I'm right, and you're wrong," but she's not trying, apparently. I'm happy to discuss the interpretation of Scripture, and my interpretations of it, but that doesn't seem the issue.

I can't control my family, and I don't really want to control them, but I do want to be respected, and I certainly don't want them to control me.

Recognize my point, and I'll be more obliged to listen, but "you need to forgive," is just a dodge from my rightful options on their part. I can't make them accept their duties, but I can at least lead the horse to water; a witness is for me, if nothing else.

I don't feel confident asserting myself around them, and I think that was initially because I didn't know how to, but it's now far beyond that. They say those who feel a loss of control or learned helplessness oft comes from religious families, and that describes me well; it's hard to assert yourself when you feel constantly apologetic, and that would be me. I seek self-approval, but when you get zero positive feedback from others when trying to assert your prerogative, they're actually perpetuating the problem, telling me and my unconscious that the only way to get support is to be an obsequious *****, and I'm sick of it.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Mother. You complain about me bringing up the past, so let's in that case focus upon the future, shall we? When I ask a question, I want an honest answer, full stop.

Scripture in effect demands you to submit to me, and all I want is vulnerability. Show that to me, respect for my prerogative, and let's move on; I'm not trying to hit you, but I am trying to hold you accountable.

Why? Because that's what I'm supposed to do, okay? And if I'm not, I'm selfish, and that grants me another set of justifications, in line with Caiaphas.

So: Just show you respect me by respecting my frame--full stop. I ask you a question, you answer; no excuses. Show my distrust, and accusations of cowardice were unfounded; let's thus start over.

I am tired of feeling the need to be a total saint, around you; when challenging a certain piece of thinking on your part, it's nothing I wouldn't ask of myself.

So stop resisting.

[growlycat]

In my humble opinion, only strong boundaries limits and quite frankly walking away if needed is the only cure for toxic family members.

[Noitartst]

Originally Posted by growlycat

In my humble opinion, only strong boundaries limits and quite frankly walking away if needed is the only cure for toxic family members.

What do you think I tried to do? I tried to confront with witnesses, but they kept guilt-tripping, instead of validating me, which increased the initial problem, caused by me trying to be excessively selfless.

I keep trying to to build barriers, but others keep undermining them, mostly passively, and it's not by my family, but by others outside it. I'm trying to find moral and emotional support outside the family, but I can't find any.

I'm trying to do it in an honorable way, but why do they keep calling that ***** "good"?

[justdesserts]

I have been following your story, and your demand for "submission" confuses me, especially with the scripture you're using. That's neither here nor there, though. Only you can change your circumstances, including the way you choose to interact with your family members. I know you're suffering from apathy, which is a huge barrier to overcome, but until you decide to change and enforce the changes you want to make, I think you'll be disappointed in efforts to force others to submit to your wishes for change. Good luck in your efforts.

[Noitartst]

By the way, in between my last missive, I was handcuffed outside my trailer by some cops; apparently I was making too much noise, and some roadside traveler stopped by the side of the road. Some cop walked in to my house, sans permission. Nobody was there with me, so they let me go; don't think they can do that.

As to what you were just saying, yes; before I "decide to change and enforce the changes" I "want to make," it will be incredibly hard.

Look; I want folks willing to validate the whys and wherefores, of what I'm doing, on a moral level. For some reason, moral support is terribly difficult, and that has been a major sticking point; I'm trying to tear down my relationship with my family, but I'm trying to forge a new anchor to replace it.

Does that make me pathetic?

[justdesserts]

Originally Posted by Noitartst

By the way, in between my last missive, I was handcuffed outside my trailer by some cops; apparently I was making too much noise, and some roadside traveler stopped by the side of the road. Some cop walked in to my house, sans permission. Nobody was there with me, so they let me go; don't think they can do that.

I'm very sorry that happened. From what you described, it sounds like they could have violated your civil rights.

As to what you were just saying, yes; before I "decide to change and enforce the changes" I "want to make," it will be incredibly hard.

Look; I want folks willing to validate the whys and wherefores, of what I'm doing, on a moral level. For some reason, moral support is terribly difficult, and that has been a major sticking point; I'm trying to tear down my relationship with my family, but I'm trying to forge a new anchor to replace it.

Does that make me pathetic?

I think I understand the desire to forge a new relationship with your family when the old one has been toxic. I think that desire is perfectly understandable and natural. What I don't quite understand is what validation would look for, sound like, and feel like for you coming from your therapist or from someone on the forum? Do you want someone to tell you that you're justified in seeking revenge? Or that you've been wronged terribly by your family? What do you want to hear or have another person say or do that would make you feel better?

Once you felt validated, how would that affect your relationship with yourself and your family?

I don't think you're pathetic at all, just struggling with life changing issues.

[Rive.]

The sad reality of life (or one of them) is that some people will never admit they are wrong of past/current wrongdoing. However much ‘proof’ one brings, they will deny-deflect-distort-throw it back at you. How much time and heartache will one (you) spend looking for retribution or simple acknowledgment of ‘I’m right and you’re wrong’? This, i.e. holding out for an apology from some quarters, is merely holding you back...anchored to the past and anchored to the pain.

Ts will also not back up clients’ authority. What you want them to do is like pouring oil on a raging fire. Ts will not want to be a part of that. So, this expectation of yours will be disappointed if you keep clinging to this.

More to the point, is your T helping you re this ‘apathy’ you mention? They need to help you to move on instead of fixating so much on (your painful) history.

I am not saying it is easy but there comes a point in time where we simply have to move on. Why? Some people can’t (or will not) give us what we want. We have to turn the page. If only for our own sanity.

[Noitartst]

Originally Posted by Rive.

The sad reality of life (or one of them) is that some people will never admit they are wrong of past/current wrongdoing. However much ‘proof’ one brings, they will deny-deflect-distort-throw it back at you. How much time and heartache will one (you) spend looking for retribution or simple acknowledgment of ‘I’m right and you’re wrong’? This, i.e. holding out for an apology from some quarters, is merely holding you back...anchored to the past and anchored to the pain.

Ts will also not back up clients’ authority. What you want them to do is like pouring oil on a raging fire. Ts will not want to be a part of that. So, this expectation of yours will be disappointed if you keep clinging to this.

More to the point, is your T helping you re this ‘apathy’ you mention? They need to help you to move on instead of fixating so much on (your painful) history.

I am not saying it is easy but there comes a point in time where we simply have to move on. Why? Some people can’t (or will not) give us what we want. We have to turn the page. If only for our own sanity.

"Ts"...? You do mean therapists, correct?

Okay; you're basically saying that I should be doormat, and my mother was right to walk all over me, via one-way street. There is no way, or reason to move on, because push come to shove, I' am wrong to be selfish. "Moving on" is codeword for "doormat," so until I see support for me being persistent, being aggressive, why should I? Doormats don't deserve to go anywhere, can't go anywhere, and neither should I.

You see, you're really just saddling me with the added guilt of being wrong, crippling my motivation to move forward, at least I think yous are.

I don't expect an apology, friend, but what I can do is channel my anger contempt for my family to go forward; care to help me do that? And, read below to see what I said to Justdesserts.

As is, I just feel like there's a hole in my soul, and I can't bond with anyone unless I admit I deserved t be mistreated. Look--agreeing on that is not revenge, is it? Well, to a lotta folks, it seems precisely that.

Perhaps, we should just start on where we do share agreement.

Originally Posted by justdesserts

I'm very sorry that happened. From what you described, it sounds like they could have violated your civil rights.

I'd like to know how to look into that...I was shouting, and I guess someone by the roadside of the freeway I'm at thought there was someone with me. I guess that complaint, that i was arguing with someone, could be the justification they needed to look, through the law; I certainly never gave permission.

Originally Posted by justdesserts

I think I understand the desire to forge a new relationship with your family when the old one has been toxic. I think that desire is perfectly understandable and natural. What I don't quite understand is what validation would look for, sound like, and feel like for you coming from your therapist or from someone on the forum? Do you want someone to tell you that you're justified in seeking revenge? Or that you've been wronged terribly by your family? What do you want to hear or have another person say or do that would make you feel better?

Once you felt validated, how would that affect your relationship with yourself and your family?

I don't think you're pathetic at all, just struggling with l ife changing issues.

Recognition of my integrity, matters;I hate to be discounted, but over and over again, the force of my reasoning has been discounted as being variously black-and-white, overly logical, and small-minded. Thing is, those resisting advocate a point of view with all-too-real consequences. They seem to think they can defy my authority based on my apparent attitude, but if you mean to truly take Scripture seriously, that, my friend is a bridge to nowhere.

That justifies a opening a can of worms with Pandora's name all over it, and fundamentalists claim never to touch; well, touch it, they are. I'm calling it out, and sans any apology.

To me, respect for my ideas, and reasons I'm fighting, ought to suffice; those are why I'm standing up for myself, and will do so, even if others think doing so, petty; my logic justifies it, and in any case, I intend to so so, just to make a point.

If my family rejects me, okay, just as long as I can find others outside my family willing to back up my key claims and prerogatives. As I said, I need to set boundaries, and in so doing, I'm preparing justifications to run over trespasser via my tank treads many times over, define the demands that can be asked of Bible-thumpers, and hold them to it, unless they want to accept that not doing so allows for ignoring Biblical sexual morality, too.

I'm moving on by grieving the cowardice, and lies perpetrated by those who didn't wish to admit me right; I despise them, and I refuse to be chained by guilt and obligation, like I was, any longer; question is, will I get any moral support?

Things I want agreement with my family on:

• A certain scriptural passage
• I am not an excuse.
• If I challenge your thinking, don't sidestep.

If my family refuses to recognize this, then I'm like support from some others I trust that these demands are reasonable, and become the benchmark for new boundaries of others that want to form an intimate relationship with me.

I should have been able to simply demand these things of my mother, per her own pre-set beliefs, but was not; she was wrong, and want that recognized.

No more talk of my mother being "loving, or the need to "forgive"--she needs to take responsibility for self-imposed cross, and if not, don't expect thing from e towards her be scorn and ridicule for not doing so.

There--I think we're getting towards new border lands for my soul!