Looking for Moral Support

This is what youre in therapy to resolve. Some people write a letter to the people who hurt them; some people rant at an empty chair; but really the only place it resolves is in your head. You think differently and then you can act more in line with your values.

This is a psychotherapy forum and like others have said you are approaching your situation from a particular Christian viewpoint (which other Christians may not agree with.)
If you are seeking a therapist you may want to find a Christian therapist who agrees with your viewpoint. In my experience, therapists will have you focus on what you can change about yourself not others. You seem to confuse my view as being pacifist. I just don't think you have a right to dominate someone else. just my opinion you are free to disregard.

I don't want to dominate other people! If others expect religion to dominate though, then soup du jour.

I was raised to obey a religion by a fundamentalist who was a terrible head of household going through menopause.

If I'm bashing others over the head, what do you think happened to me? I'm not trying to dominate; I'm saying, "Back off, you ****ing *****."

It's either that, or walk away in contempt over hypocrisy. I've been encouraged to walk away, but as is, that clearly threatens my self identity. To do so, I'd need to be sure I'm not cutting corners.

Also, I've been accused for my shallow reasoning over Scripture; well, I've been trying to avoid full frontal on the topic, given this is secular, but more than one minister has admitted my logic was "brilliant"-- one even after I'd dressed him down for being a coward and blasphemer in the presence of another elder.

I could break out my reasoning, but I really wish not to do so--not here, at least.

What I'd really like is moral and emotional support for my values--AKA witnesses. I may not change minds of the people who have wronged, and continue to wrong, but by doing that, I can at least fly my flag, and start to move forward; as of now, "moving forward like giving up--which is anathema to me.

The New Testament is a torture device--they whip it out on me, I'll do likewise to them, and lash 'em over seven times. All my aggression stems from the best defense being a great offense, and how Scripture was used to guilt 'n shame me.

Instead of walking away entirely, I have used Scripture to fight back--that or the highway.

Oh...and if I want a witness to point out she's stonewalling when I confront her, that is not controlling her, not by my lights, at least. I want a witness to that! If I frame a question, and she evades, whether it is religious or not, it is rude--full stop; to her she's wrong, to out her cognitive dissonance is not enabling me to be some jerk; it is a textbook exmple of coping with me resourcing my self to have a calm and respectful conversation with someone whom I very, very angry.

I trust it is fair.

Ask your mother if she is willing to do a few sessions of family therapy. Family therapy can be a good tool to sort out dysfunctional family patters. Do note that the therapist won't "take sides" but will certainly hold you both to some sort of accountability.

Alternatively asking your minister to serve as a "mediator" if everyone is willing. A mediator is an unbiased third party who may help keep things civil and clear when emotional topics are being discussed. A mediator will NOT "take your side" though but may help clarify things for both parties.

Well, she has resisted mediation, in the past; I'd like that, and want to ask again, but my counselor at BHR has tried, and we'll try some more.

I'm going to get a BHR therapist, with whom, apparently, I can work with on contacting shrinks who let me down; my red line will be answering the question according to the question; I want dialog, and I want relationship, but if they're not going to go so far a reply to my questions, well, there is no point continuing.

Maybe my mother won't agree to engage. Ever. Still, I think some people will, and I have specific questions. Answering questions according to the question is a key value of mine, and it is nothing I'd ask of others I'd not ask of myself.

"All I ask is if you agree that making orders you don't follow up on is wrong, then why couldn't you just bear witness to my mother that she's wrong to do so?" If they apologize for refusing to validate, good; if not, well, I guess I should shake off the dust from my feet, then.

I wish I were working together with someone, already; I'd be working on it now, but I see no way to do so.

I cannot control others, but I can confront, and the therapist can help me do that; I can ask challenging questions, and the therapist help me by reiterating them.

All I ask at a minimum is calling out sidestepping; you see someone evading my question, call 'im out.

It is the least that can be done; from now on, I will no longer tolerate those who sidestep my questions, and am seeking others, here, and elsewhere who will help me reinforce my boundaries.

Any takers?

I think you have every right to ask the questions that you want to ask. Others have the right not to answer or to answer in ways which may not please you. Be ready for that before you ask. Confront is a strong word for me but I can certainly understand your desire to ask for answers
I have the same desire, but at this moment I am not strong enough to hear what I may hear and so I will wait.

"Confront" is a strong intent; that is why I use it--to set boundaries.

For the record, what do you mean when you said, "I have the same desire, but at this moment I am not strong enough to hear what I may hear and so I will wait."

All I'm looking for is people willing to buffer my frame;It provides no guarantees, but it does boost the odds of engagement with the people I'm confronting.

Any volunteers? I'm ready to attack; I don't fear rejection--all I want is dialog.

Volunteers? For what? To confront your mother? Dude nobody on the Internet can join
You when you talk to your mother.

No one here is going to support an attack of any kind.

If you want dialogue, then during the actual confrontation I would suggest dropping the military metaphors. People tend to react badly to that. And there goes the dialogue.

Or are the military metaphors how you're ginning yourself up for the confrontation?

To clarify. I have the desire to ask those around me some questions but I realise I may not like the answers I get and so I will wait until I am strong enough. I agree that we are each in this on our own at the end of the day. You can post and look for support but no one can actually be there for you. I will bow out now because, even though you are free to use it, your choice of words is triggering for me and I don't wish to read them any more. I hope you find what you are looking for.

Let's say you found yourself a witness and went ahead with this plan. What would happen? What would the scenario look like? What would be the outcome? How would it affect your mother? How would you feel afterwards?

Boundaries by Townsend and Cloud might help. Refuse to fight with anyone. State your position and walk away.

I think this is a great idea. The book Boundaries has been very helpful to me.

I took a family member to an appointment for the purpose of gaining support to ask them to do something to protect me from a situation they had created. The family member refused in all sorts of slippery ways. My therapist even had a go at trying to get the message across, and it went nowhere. Even so, it was very helpful to have my therapist see what I've been up against. In that way, I understand what you mean by having a witness. It's validating.

I've never found violent or warlike imagery to be all that effective in making my point with anyone, but I can sure understand how it feels to be full of anger--I just don't seek to resolve the anger by directing it at anyone. I see boundaries as more like a shield than a sword.

What I want to say to my mother is, "You're wrong, and here's why."

That's it; it; witnesses, and validation; I don't see how to set boundaries any further. I intend to keep buffering my boundaries until I no longer fee.l the need to, and feel comfortable to enforce them on my own.

Until then, I want to talk with those refusing to respect them, seeing if they're willing to talk, then move on if they refuse to do so; basically a witnes saying in declarative sentences that he affirms my logic.

I may feel the need to send someone repeated messages, be they via wirtness or myself, but that is to reach the conclusion: Will they listen, or not?

If not, I have no compunction about lowering the boom, but it is a deliberate action, not lightly taken. I'm ready, but not desirous, to burn bridges.

Well, to elaborate on what I already said, it is about making ultimatums, and following through, after making clear I gave the violator chance to explain himself.

To an elder who stonewalled helping meas opposed to my mother, I would talk about authority and principle, as opposed to feelings of anger and revenge, and tell him how hurt I felt, and insist that while I may want revenge, my prerogative to press charges against me mum, effectively, had not been acknowledged.

I effect, I would make clear that I had been doubly wronged, for by my mother, who had defied Scripture, and secondly by elders like him, who had refused to get involved.

Was I angry at my mother? Yes--yes I was. Did that negate my claim to authority? No more than when a homeowner called the cops over arson; as much it was his decision to press charges, so was it mine to throw the Good Book at my mother.

I was doing this to make a series of points, namely that I had prerogative, and disrespecting it was rude; if he fully acknowledged my authority, I'd be more willing to discuss forgiveness, but principle was at stake, and would otherwise.

Just as nothing I had done with my mother negated my authority, so was it with him; as with her, all I'd want is to let him who stole steal no more; respect me, not resist me framing any question, no stalling, hemming and hawing, and the like.

For me willingness of others to let me challenge their thinking was key, and if they were willing to do that, show me regard in that one key benchmark, that would be pretty much all I sought in terms of trust-building,

If he or my mother disputed my logic, fine; theological mediation would be more than enough.

I'd email, of call the elder; if no response, or outright rejection, I would have the witness come into play, contacting the elder, affirming my prerogative, and at the same seeking clarification as to why said elder rejected, or disputed, my claim to authority.

I may feel the need to contact said elder multiple times, or not, via myself or messenger, AKA witness. In helping me, the witness will earn my trust in the process--trust that I am not alone in the world, trust that one other, at least, has my back, and that I can rely on a witness, at least.

Part of the reason I don't trust when people tell me to move on is that I can't trust them to watch my back when I choose to fight. If I can trust you to do that, though, then we're getting somewhere; if you genuinely dispute my logic, we can work through that--but it had better not be because you just don't like the implications of my logic--more than one minister has upfront admitted to me that that was the issue--he wasn't willing to be truly gutsy.

What I'm looking for is an internal sense of accomplishment, that I have gone as far as I can making my point, and that if needed, I will be able to make it tomorrow; these days, I currently feel like I'm isolated, alone, and nobody is helping me live up to my values; if I knew I had others encouraging my efforts, I think it would me more secure, and feel more like moving on, and doing things more interesting than obsessing over the past.

That individual would, of course, need to share in part in my rejection by my mother, and the elders, of course, but by doing so, I repeat, I wouldn't be so alone.

That is what I'm working towards; I'm not so sure I shouldn't repeat myself, though. If someone helped me state my position, preferably with stature, that would be best.

Interestingly, in a dispute with my brother, last year, told my brother and his wife he was rude, and later that day, he came conciliatorily to my trailer later that day. Didn't resolve the tensions, but it did seem to get a certain degree of positive result.


I agree; I would like more people stating, and restating, my positions on my behalf, instate of verbally excoriating them. I feel so out of place with my family, I want an outsider to do it to them; I'd like to regaining trust with my family members, but we are where we are.

A witness to my family would be:

I hear that you...if so, that's wrong. He wants...

Look--my main option now is to walk away, and I know that. Am I prepared to do that? A thousand times--yes! That said, I intend to negotiate tough, make my reasoning clear, my threats clear, and above all, follow through--I haven't been doing that, and right now, I do see boundaries more like a sword--sword and a suit of armor, to be precise.

I fear, right now, that my boundaries aren't strong enough, and as a result, I feel the need to be more proactive; hopefully, my thinking is clearer, now, and allows for a way forward. I think about one incident with a pinata (my pinata, not his pinata) on the Fourth of July with my brother; I lost control of it for a lot of reasons starting with my self-confidence.

I intend to confront him about it, and am prepared to take my pinata, and walk away, leave the whole party next time; that said, I'd like dialog about it, and if I come across as excessively rigid in my thinking, well, I emotional am, not because I've compromised before, and hated myself for it, which usually comes from not being clear about what you want in your bottom line during negotiation. I want respect for my prerogative, of course, but what I want is just to retain control over the running of the operation.

I guess, instead of a "witness" with my family, really, is that I need a negotiating partner with them. I need to negotiate with them, and I need to learn to negotiate with them, so I'd to partner with someone in doing that. Restoring trust in my ability to negotiate with others...I gues that is the key skill I need to learn.

I think I understand...

Here's my versions/stories. Tell me if it's sort of what you want to do:

1. Growing up with my mom was horrible. She hated me. Really hated. I used to hide in fear from her in my dad's office or under furniture or in closets. When I was 17, my parents divorced and my dad left me with my mom. I had a complete breakdown and wound up in the hospital. While there, my mom kicked me out of the house. I wound up in a homeless shelter. Few years later, after a couple years of therapy, I was ready to "confront" my mom on how bad my childhood was growing up. I wrote a letter to her (with the help of my T), called my mom and set up a lunch date. There, I read her the letter. She cried, apologized, told her point of view. We both agreed to try again at a relationship, but set up new boundaries. Now, 11 years later, we're best friends.

2. When I was 16, my friends introduced me to church. When I first joined, I had a mentor who was the youth pastor's wife. She taught me about the bible, the religion, etc. One day my mentor's brother died. My mentor took it really hard and left the church. I tried writing her, encouraging her, supporting her from a distance. But the church told me to leave her alone. I had to grieve the loss of her. A year later she came back to church. She greeted everyone but me. I waited till after service to say hi. She said hi, gave me a hug, and said oh btw we're moving to another city. She was gone again. A few years later (about the same time I confronted my mom), I looked up my mentor and found her in a church near me. So I scheduled an appointment with the church to meet with her. I confronted her and her husband. She apologized, but gave a lot of excuses. She scheduled a date for us to meet up and hang out. We did. A month later I called the church and they told me she moved... Again she was gone.

Is that the type of confrontating that you wish to do? Except with scripture and having someone come along with you?

I don't think anyone here will come along with you. Nor is this forum a really appropriate place to get religious support. But if that's the type of confrontation you wish to seek (friendly but firm, talking about how you feel/felt, no attacking, setting new boundaries, just expressing yourself), then I think you could find some support here. I would support that. But only if you were respectful of the other person's boundaries.

That's acutally a fascinating tale, about your mentor...I have someone who used to be my best friend, at least, even if he isn't now, given he avoid my phone calls pretty much like a plague.

In such a case, I'd try to understand that lady's internal logic.

Did you come across as too needy? That's what destroyed my relationship, I think.

Also, I think of a pastor's wife who distanced herself from a church after her husband cheated; my guess is she did that to preserve her marriage, and stayed with him, till he died, last year.

Was your mentor mad at God? That was what messed up her husband; my family is geared for at least slow-motion deaths that happen over months without being phased, as well as miscarriages, but sudden deaths aren't something we've experienced much; was that part of it?

As for me, I guess that I'd like support negotiating with my family; negotiation is like war, but if I'd said "negotiate" is sounds more peaceful, even if the mentality is identical.

Could I find help here, or elsewhere, of developing a gameplan for negotiating with my family, and others?

What I want from my mother:

1. Recognition to resist a question is (with maybe some exceptions) wrong.
2. Keep your word.
3. Do not be sloppy; either enforce your orders, or don't.

What I want from my brother:

1. Recognition I was right to enforce mom's rules.
2. Don't sidestep questions.

Could a counselor help with negotiations, as opposed to "confronting"?

In any case, how should begin, and what do you think of my demands?

Yes, I think you're getting somewhere. I think negotiation is a very good word.

Okay; could someone here write a script for what I want, given what I've said?

Here's a stab at what I'd like to tell my mother:

Look. Here is all I want--namely:

1. Recognition that to resist a question is (with maybe some exceptions) wrong.
2. Keep your word.
3. Do not be sloppy; either enforce your orders, or don't.

If not, them I am prepared to not come to any family gatherings, or continue to sit with you, I church; when I say I hold you to be a hypocrite, I mean it, even should you not believe me.

I f you wish to truly work with me, then I am prepared to truly work with you.

There's my rough draft; how ought it to be modified? I'd like others to help with me in the siege, actively, or otherwise, but this is a start. Mean time, this still feels passive; I want to do more, and confront others; as of now, I can't think of anything else that I'd like to do than confront people.

I want others to help me confront, given I want to bond with others, even as I'm walling others out, and what best to bond over than this?

PS: I asked about going back to college, today; I feel more driven to do anything than go back to college, but my days are so empty, I don't know how to fill them, and feel under-motivated, still.

I guess what a framer is someone who will frame a question; I ask the question, and after I do so have people follow up, and keep repeating the question, as opposed to myself; that allows me greater silent dignity, pressuring my opponent whilst I stand pat.

In context of negotiation, that is what a framer does. I would like to send framers out to work upon several people I know, right now; any volunteers? Its all about wearing our opponents down, and...out.

Summation: What I want, ultimately, is to gain a sense of control over my life; doing things with purpose, and in servitude to circumstance.

"Framing" in marketing terms is just another word for "spin". You have me curious as to how this would play out. Would internet strangers really have any impact on your family? A therapist may reframe what you are saying to make the message easier to swallow. I wish you the best but your approach is one I don't understand. I am genuinely curious how any of this will work

As am I, really; it actually worked in person, and with me and another, against therapist; he admitted he was stonewalling. Won't work every time, or at once, but should help a lot.

Basically, I am prepared to risk the destruction of my relationship with my mother, over this; I am that serious, and I expect my therapist to support me fully, until the poor schmuck resigns from BHR.

Confrontation is negotiation, and negotiation a never-ending war throughout human existence; to "forgive" is impossible--that is to runaway from engagement, and hide in bed. "Win-win" may be the goal, but war it still is.

Cover me.

PS: Another thought. I like to do things with a chip-on-my-shoulder attitude; instead of repressing it, let's together channel it!

With this as an internal motivator, not because I'm "good," but because I have something to prove; let's finally get somewhere, shall we?

'Negotiation' isn't synonymous with 'war'. Negotiation can be two parties coming to a mutually satisfying conclusion about something. War is typically not very satisfying for anyone involved.

You think I don't know that? Here's an email I sent a bishop, essentially, in my church's hierarchy, saying what I wanted him, or someone else, to tell my mother--a conversation-starter, really; did I expect him to agree to it? No, but it was an attempt to get support setting boundaries, and see what we could agree on telling my mother:

Sally, your son is right.
No, his attitude isn't perfect, but his intent is correct. He believes you to be, well, a liar, hypocrite, and a white-washed wall.
If so, then he has reason to distrust--not just be angry. He wants you to respect him, as opposed to love him--as he sees it, "love" means unending condescension--and rudeness. Right or wrong, he believes he has the prerogative--and duty--to hold you accountable--both now, and in the future, and you've wrongly refused to acknowledge this.
You claim he's vengefully emotional, yet he says every time he's tried to reduce this into a syllogism of logic, you've balked. He once went to a husband-and-wife team, laid out his frustrations, was direct, and sought their support, but they balked, too; he offered that they resolve their differences via a theologian's ruling, but they balked at that, also.
He's gone to pastors, who have acknowledged his logical claims, and complimented his intelligence--but utterly failed to acknowledge his visceral claim to authority which works fine for them on paper.
He demands your respect, on this, because he can, and because he also wants to you to show him the respect he's due, just as he's given you, yours. You were head of household, and parent, but that doesn't mean he isn't due any respect. When the Scripture says we should submit to each other, it means it--no exceptions, no special privileges.
He knows that you admire Stonewall Jackson's orders that his men shoot first and ask questions later; well, as you measure, so shall it be measured unto you--he's simply holding you to the standard you created for yourself.
Sally, at the present time, for him to "forgive" you is to validate your sin, because sans recognition or respect for the things he's fought for, it would be wrong--wrong towards you, and himself.
You may never acknowledge the reasons he's mad at you are right, but he cares about his integrity and honor, and seeks respect for that, if nothing else; as such, I bestow that on him.
Sally, to make orders you do not enforce, is wrong; as as much as he sought to hold you accountable, as much as he genuinely did so out of conviction, power to that. As much as you were an unGodly hypocrite, power to him for caring--and shame on you--for resisting.
No he's in no way perfect, Sally, but all the same in spite of how he expresses it, you still have a very loving son, even if it means burying his own mother in his tank treads.

I sent it nearly half a year ago, and I still am waiting for his reply. Unable to make common cause or alliances inside or outside my family, I feel like a total failure; I haven't been able to find any help setting boundaries, and as result, I feel miserable.

HOW TO SET BOUNDARIES? I keep trying to throw out aggressive stances, and work with others to confront my mother, but I'm trying to start aggressive, and go back to assertive.

I'm trying to develop a front confronting my mother, given how weak, I feel.

I keep talking about my anger, and everything, but I do love them, and I could talk about what I do show love, because nobody's talking bout that--how to show anger? Displeasure?

If I walk away, I'll need to stand my ground; how to do that? What moral support can you give?

In the future, I can exert control by walking away from my family; should I?

Should I demand, say,my mother recognize making orders you don't enforce is wrong? That's in the past, though; what I want is in the future, but what do I want? I feel numb, and numbness makes me want to be aggressive, so what's a gameplan out of of apthy, tailored to my situation?

Basically, I want to confront her with a chip on my shoulder, and I want to negotiate that way; how do I negotiate assertively with a chip on my shoulder?
......................................
Hm...well, I guess, what I want is a specific type of revenge. I don't want physically hurt my mother mother, or my brother, but I want it made clear by others that my logic is correct, and that they're hypocrites. One believes in oathbreaking, one believes in tolerating oathbreaking, and that she's somehow a "good Christian," despite that. I don't want to isolate myself from the family; I want to reengage it, but they don't want to be reengaged. There's a lot of stuff I'd like to do, b such as for my birthday, but I'm afraid I'll hate myself for it, thereafter.

I care more about confronting my family, with a chip on my shoulder, but the thing about boundaries are, they're passive; that's a contradiction. I can accept rejection from my family, but where to go from there, and how to prepare for rejection?