Looking for Moral Support

It just sounds like you are trying to control the other person and or seeking validation. I have personally had to deal with a toxic family member and disengagement seems to work. This means having zero expectations of your toxic person. The only expectation being that they keep away.

Engaging in any further conversations with toxic family just lead down the rabbit hole

I'm sorry Noitartst. It seems I made things worse. Just to clarify, I was in no way suggesting you are wrong or that you should be a doormat. I was trying to help but seems I failed miserably. I can only apologise.

I wish you peace and hope you get the the resolution you seek.

Noitartst,

I've sent you a private message. Please check your in box.

I doubt it. Look; I want certain things I can't have from my family--full stop. Can I find it elsewhere?

I can cut my mother, and the whole family--out of my life, but I intend it to be systematic, principled, and not lightly done.

I'm ready to define duties, and prerogatives, but I dunno if others are.

Look; I like to argue, I like to challenge the thinking of others, around me--how to channel this productively? How do I do what I love doing within a constructive, non-burnout way?

What you all could help me do is confront people, help me with some of my ideas, though.

Heard of cognitive dissonance? Well, we're all emotional, and we learn emotionally; when we learn info that contradicts previously garnered pieces we're, uh, attached to, our brain shuts down, preventing any more learning on the topic demonstratin' how we're all emotional, not logical.

Well, in that case, the key is to lay siege, and wait until the cognitively dissonant reengages, and sieges work best when the besieged is outnumbered. There are ways to do this in person and over email, and with help from people right here on this forum, it could be a beginning for me to start doing something I genuinely care about.

Keep in mind too, my two goals--regaining a sense of control, and also overcoming apathy--are not the same.

No we can't control others, but we can influence them, and we can force them to confront things they don't wanna--that is how protest movements work, and a way I can finally focus on something important to me.

PS: Aside from this, I want a job, but I don't want to go into a tailspin going after something simply because I "should." Confronting is what I really care about, and I'd like to see real help and support about that first, before looking for a job, just "because."

You use fairly aggressive language when you speak of your dilemma. When you say that you want to lay siege and outnumber whoever it is you want to confront it sounds like you want to win or conquer your foes. If your family relationships have deteriorated to the point where you need to defeat them, I agree with some of the other posters that perhaps it would be healthiest for you to disengage and go about your life without their influence. In my experience, confrontation in this type of relationship does not lead to either party feeling better or an improvement in the relationship

"Fairly aggressive language"? Yes, yes I do; it suits me, don't you think?

As to disengage, what of my goals? That ignores them, and ignores my motives. I need a focus, and I need to shore up my personal boundaries.

Running away is not about setting boundaries, let alone going forward; it's about giving up. As long as I see that the goal--not standing my ground and getting support for that--what motive do I have?

In any case, what internal motives do you think I possess, anywho? Why should I care? God essentially is lie, to them, and right and wrong matter not; "moving on" means treating those big questions with abject contempt.

Here, I'd been thinking about how to go forward, if imperfectly, making phone calls, and there is zero validation for this!

A-mazing; you realize you're effectively claiming to be against boundaries, in the first place?

I feel no reason to trust you, because there is no solidarity, no support. Why are you all so contradictory? Your logic is schizoid, not mine.

Aggressive language that suggests violence suits no one.

By the way, while one scriptural passage says "an eye for an eye," doesn't another say "turn the other cheek"?

Well, if my mother's truly a Christian, she should at least submit to rigorous cross-examination. As for me, I ask not thing of others which I will not ask of myself.

That's my flexibility, right there in a nutshell!

Look: I'm concerned you and others dispute both my motives, and logic. If you showed me wrong, it would make things simpler, even if you said, Hey, I only oppose yer logic, or Hey, I oppose only yer motives.

If you truly oppose my logic, then this can be civically resolved, dare I say; as for my motives, I say, take some time to get to know me better! My conviction that holding mother accountable is firmly held, and welcome all who dispute its wisdom to at least agree with my sincerity.

It pains me that people think I'm just doing this out of bad motives; if they want to believe it , fine--I hold prerogative--but get to know me, and see what truly drives...

I am sorry you are not getting the support you seek. I wonder if you would have better results if you posted in another area of the forum. This part of the forum is generally viewed by people who are interested in psychotherapy.

I would never dispute another's right to be angry or to feel mistreated. Only you know your situation. I gave feedback on what I thought would be helpful. I think trying to make another confess or submit in some way will not lead to good outcomes for you. On pc others have given their thoughts in good faith to help each other. Sometimes that means reading opinions you may not agree with. But people here do care

Maybe I should move to another forum area, but I think I'll stay here, for now.

I gave some suggestions, attempts to maintain dialog,Growlycat; you seem here to be saying nothing new, save apologizing, for no apparent reason. For my part, I have kept restating what I want in new ways, or trying to.

It angers me that people seem to encourage me to not assert my my authority over my mother; that seems to be a rejection of my integrity, and logic.

I refuse to reject my integrity, and logic; without them, I am truly hollow, and those who would validate for doing so ought to be ashamed of themselves.

Devoid of integrity, why should I set boundaries, anywho? Boundaries are bad, and wrong; I may have an ego, but I'm not amoral. I need acceptance of myself, but I see no acceptance of myself in others, or reason to not accept myself.

For me, asserting authority are my boundaries; extremely simple.

To move beyond my family, fine, but even so, that doesn't settle the issue of boundaries; if I can't work with my family on them, I'll need to set them up someplace; I live by myself because living with others is too blame frustrating! I need to work with others, somewhere, someplace, or I'l just keep avoiding society in frustration, till I die.

The reason I keep wanting to draw a line in the sand is because I want to push back, but on the one hand I'm encouraged to retreat, i.e. leave, and on the other, move forward, and that means to assert, and stake out territory, and be, well, selfish; sorry, but you only support me fleeing--only then.

You have made perfectly clear there is no way forward, and Scripture demands I be a doormat. If I'm not going to confront my family, then I'll have to confront someone, but it will be in the same manner I confronted them, because otherwise, what justification do I have?

Look, I intend to live by the golden rule, but I'm not responsible for others' sins! Hopefully, you start to see my moral dilemma.

I really want to understand but I don't see the logic or riteousness of having authority over another human being. Maybe someone else here will know what to say.

And to clarify there is a way forward. You can cut toxic people out of your life and move forward by surrounding yourself with people worthy of your love and trust.

Are you talking about a therapist here? I am trying to figure out how any of this relates to therapy.

You cannot assert your authority over anyone except yourself -- that is not Biblical (since you seem to think it is) and comes off to others reading those words as aggressive and potentially abusive. I refuse to get into a theological debate with you though. That is not permitted on PC. Perhaps you need to find a religious forum to discuss your interpretation of scripture, but this isn't the place to do so which leaves it difficult to address what you are saying since you seem to be only seeing things through a certain religious lense.

I also agree, your thread does not seem to be in any way related to psychotherapy. Can you explain why you posted this on this particular forum?

You do have an unclear understanding the concept of setting boundaries. You see them as something to exert and inflict on other people from how you are explaining yourself. That is not what boundaries are about. You can have clear, self-supporting, healthy boundaries without people "submitting to your authority." That is something you can work on understanding and putting into place with the help of the therapist if you choose.

Well, it's exercising prerogative to teach someone something.

Look, I want to discuss the meaning and obligations of Scripture, so let's discuss what it truly means, all right?

"Moving on" wont get a debate about Scriptural obligations, and duty; by holding my mother to the duty of submission, I am teaching something about what Scripture is, and allows.

By "moving on," I am not teaching her, and at worst, I am validating some wrong beliefs, on her part.

Christians are supposed to submit to each other--what doth that mean? I thought I had done that--was I wrong?

I'm going to beat my mother over her head with Scripture because otherwise, Christian bondslavery is a one-way street, and skip parenthood.

I submitted to her, but she did not to me, and besides, we're both adults, now, anywho. I feel like someone walking around with a lot of swords stuck in his back, bleeding, feeling ashamed of wanting to fight back, of have a spine.

I want to this my mother to show that Scripture is a two-way street, not a one-way, where I always get the shaft, and should feel grateful.

I'm not a pacifist, and yet you seem to think I should be.

Starting with folks which support, and validate, my prerogatives.

Otherwise, what am I doing???!!!

I am seeking witnesses to the validity, and integrity, of my logic.

Well, I guess I'm in an existential crisis; emotionally, I'm moving towards this issue, and I believe in following my instincts. If you could figure out a way to aid my following them, I'd be grateful.

I want witnesses to my logic, because at least that way, I will be making my boundaries clear sans violence, or screaming. I think that would be enought to calm me down, and make feel satisfied I was making my point, at least.

Otherwise, how can I justify wanting anything?

I've asked nothing of others that never asked of myself, friend; you see, I feel real betrayal, from my family; I want to assert borders harshly because I fear and mistrust others, and stay at a distance, to avoid getting hurt; "moving on," does not show how to make borders, let alone enforce them.

Me, I'm ready to move forwards, but I think I've stepped back from leadership since childhood to avoid stepping on the toes of others; I must believe stepping upon the toes of others is for the good of the one I do it to.

Hurting feelings is good; bruising egos is in accord with the will of nature. Operating out of this mindset affords freedom.

No more guilt.

Why are you looking for witnesses on a psychotherapy site on something that, although I don't claim to understand the missives, seem to have nothing at all to do with psychotherapy? Do you want to go see a therapist? Do you see one now?

You say you want a witness to your logic, and a for your mother to submit to you, as well as other things, but most of the things you mention are very abstract or if followed to concrete end, bring up imagery of physical bondage and submission, which doesn't make sense to me. In my life, I've found that you can never force someone to agree with you, without using physical force. I'd like to know the practicalities of what you want. Do you want your mother to say she's wrong and mistreated you? What does submission mean? Do you want a relationship with your family? Do you want the members of the forum to tell you that seeking vengeance is a good, righteous idea? Do you have a plan to implement your ideas? Do you have a timeframe? What is holding you back from talking to your family right now? You seem very fixated on this idea. What happens when you accomplish it? What happens if your mother refuses your efforts? What will you do with your life after this "charge" is over? I know you've said that therapists haven't been very supportive of you in your current effort, but maybe one could help with your apathy or help you figure out what to do in addition to thinking about how to implement your current play.

Yes; yes, I have a therapist, she's resisting being the role of a functional witness. As to being in the wrong forum, Merriam-Webster defines psychotherapy as:

treatment of mental or emotional disorder or of related bodily ills by psychological means

Fits, if you ask me; basically, I came here to this forum to find moral support, and tried to place it in the correct forum.

As to religion, I placed it here because it seems more in line with mental health, finding trust, support, etc. Oh, and I have sought theologians in my own channels, but here, I've sought aid along the "I just want help confronting my family" line.

We can secularize the issue with them them: Just keep yer word, establish a two-way street of reciprocation between us, et cetera.

Beyond that, if psycho therapy is what this particular forum is about, I'd love to have what I seek paraphrased in a way others support, and validate. If not, explain why my logic is wrong. If my logic be too religious, then explain a moral basis for me to stand up for myself; I don't see why I should, and there are a lot of things I don't feel like doing, but can give great reasons why I should feel like doing them.

Oh, and I wanna talk to other angry gentlemen telling them not to be brow-beat, and gut by degrees; helping others is key to escape this morass, I hear, and that I would love to do.

I want to talk to my family, right now; got a problem with that? I want to talk to the shrinks who didn't help, and do so on the basis they should have helped me overcome apathy, but simply didn't follow the literature.

Those are all vectors, all reasons why I'm at the right spot, and I'm rarin' to go, find support, charge ahead, finally.

Reading this. Seems relevant.

It is difficult to paraphrase what you even want. It's coming across from your posts as "I would like to force my family and my useless therapists to submit to my authority." What does that mean in practical terms? Can you describe how you imagine confronting your family or therapists?

No one here is going to sign on to something that sounds not like setting good boundaries and standing up for yourself, but violent.

I hear you saying that you do not want to submit to the control or authority of your family, and that the way to do that is to make them submit to your authority--that is your boundary, or line in the sand.

If I'm in the ballpark with this, I will agree that you have every right to not submit to the authority or control of toxic people. The way to achieve this is where I think people are stumbling, because in therapy it's generally acknowledged that we can't control what other people do or think, and that setting good boundaries is setting a magnificent buffer between ourselves and our toxic families--disengaging and getting away from their influences and attempts to control.

Moving on = an increase in your control of your life and the loss of your family's control over you. They will hate that you move on, because they won't be able to make you submit. Trust me, it would be wounding to them if you were to move on with your life and chose to help other people (which you stated you would love to do). So that might feel good because they will not be getting what they want from you.

Therapy can help you strengthen your boundaries with your family to keep them at a distance. You can have your say with them, but it helps to have a solid, well-thought out plan to protect yourself from whatever arguments they will have--and to do it in a way that shows they have no power over you. When you do that, you break this bind you're in that makes it feel like being a doormat. Keeping these people at bay shows strength, not weakness. Maybe take heart in the fact that they won't like it when you assert your independence and move in the direction you choose.

Bingo! You've got it! I feel threatened, and this is all about trying to create distance.

Oh, and I in no way want it to be understood that my mother's resisting my prerogative was right or beneficial. Whenever I think of moving on, thoughts my mother anger me, and make me not wish to do so.

Having success in a way that hurts her feelings pleases, though. I loath the idea of doing my family any favors, at this point; I'm doing this to regain control of myself and my life, and it is at her expense--not mine!

If Jesus demands His followers to be doormats, I'm sorry, but I've got issues with that! I've been asserting this counter claim to get others bashing my heads in to back off! I keep wanting to talk about the implications, but others keep resisting my efforts.

Your intrepretation of Scripture demands I act like a doormat; well, if you keep insisting that it's okay to demand doormat submission of others, two can play this game! I take Scripture seriously, and take umbrage to you abusing it!

Scripture aside, my impulse would be nuts to you, and do whatever, but out of respect for it, I've been more respectful to you than your idiot manner should.

That's my thinking.

Excellent words--I completely agree!

You know, I was wondering if I could make money as a counselor, figure out how to do it. It interests me, and if I didn't make much money, I think I'd enjoy it.

I think moving toward a goal that feeds your spirit is a great way to fuel your personal agency in life. You are right about the lack of money in being a counselor. I don't think they make much, based on the ones I know, but there are lots of options for helping professions.

Best of luck to you.

Bingo! You've got it! I feel threatened, and this is all about trying to create distance.

Oh, and I in no way want it to be understood that my mother's resisting my prerogative was right or beneficial. Whenever I think of moving on, thoughts my mother anger me, and make me not wish to do so.

Having success in a way that hurts her feelings pleases, though. I loath the idea of doing my family any favors, at this point; I'm doing this to regain control of myself and my life, and it is at her expense--not mine!

If Jesus demands His followers to be doormats, I'm sorry, but I've got issues with that! I've been asserting this counter claim to get others bashing my heads in to back off! I keep wanting to talk about the implications, but others keep resisting my efforts.

Your intrepretation of Scripture demands I act like a doormat; well, if you keep insisting that it's okay to demand doormat submission of others, two can play this game! I take Scripture seriously, and take umbrage to you abusing it!

Scripture aside, my impulse would be nuts to you, and do whatever, but out of respect for it, I've been more respectful to you than your idiot manner should.

That's my thinking; so you know, and I've never previously explained, my mother, in effect, in issuing orders and never bothering to enforce them--I despise her for little more than that.

A lot of people would rather ask me to forgive my mother than validate my anger, to her; I believe in forgiving, but rather than augment my point, say Scripture prevents you from pulling the rug out from under the feet of others, they basically just said I should "forgive."

Coulda said: Sally, I hear from him you made an order you never enforced, and think that okay; on principle, it's not, and he's mad enough to hold you to it. Maybe he's obsessive, maybe he's majoring in minors but he at least holds prerogative.

Nobody was willing to vouch for me, and that led eventually to learned helplessness.

In result, that shattered my ability to trust others, and told me that others would ignore and disrespect me arbitrarily, and there was nothing I could do about it. People will abandon you, guilt trip you, and deny you respect by calling you "unforgiving." Ferget it, Phil: You can't trust others, and if you do, they'll abandon, shame and humiliate.

Anyone who makes orders and doesn't enforce them is untrustworthy. I wanted to to talk to my mother about this, for instance, but nobody was willing to do so. Look--I knew I was a burden on the family, but I wanted respect, at least. Now I walk around all day, thinking I shouldn't respect myself, simply because nobody was willing to admit I had a point when I had a point.

It says here that learned helplessness comes from bad coping skills, and I agree, but how to free myself? I need to believe that I have allies when I choose to make myself a stickler for law and order.

I just think that what happened in the past will happen, over and over, again; I'll be ignored, and worse; how can I get what I want in the future? I replay my failures, and ask repetitiively what I could do different.

I'd love to reenter the traumatizing scenarios, but how to expect a different outcome?

Well, I want to confront my family, or at least, I'd like to reenter into the situations where I learned helplessness resourced, and ready to cope.

That's why I want recognition that making orders you don't enforce is wrong; I was hurt by it, and I want shared acknowledgement--that's empowering.

Oh...and how do I make money, counseling? I'd like to learn about that.