[atisketatasket]

(That probably sounds better in Latin.)

It's often remarked around here how clueless therapists can be - on the effects on a client of changing boundaries, or not setting them in the first place (is it OK to email? etc.), on how their words might affect or hurt a client, on how their not returning emails or texts or phone calls might upset a client, on transference and how to deal with it. I'm not talking about being clueless in the field in which they have built a career, I'm talking about clueless in the area of therapist-client interaction, which is kind of the key part.

I got a prime example of their cluelessness today. (Why on earth would you think that a client who desperately wants/needs to talk through a trauma would only do it once a month?) I have several real beauts from my time with No. 3, including the locker room incident.

So, why? Yes, some of it is that they are human, not cyborg, but...Don't they go through therapy themselves to learn how clients feel? Isn't human interaction a key component of at least some kinds of therapy? In fact, isn't it what they study? Aren't they trained to think about these things? All theories welcome.

There's a poll, and feel free to share your therapist's most clueless moment below.

[stopdog]

An alarming number of them have not been through therapy themselves. It is not an across the board requirement at schools and not one at all to get licensed in any state that I know of in the US. Both therapists I pay have made comment that it should be a requirement but that it is not.

I think they can be quite blind to their own cluelessness. Being a therapist is no indicator of personal insight. Of course, I have not had one say anything to me that I did not already know - so I don't think they are necessarily all that insightful or aware of clients either so it does not surprise me when they lack self awareness.
Frankly I would be a lot more surprised if one of them showed signs of cluefullness.

I would not see one who did not admit to having endured therapy themselves. I would not see one who refused to answer the question about whether they had done so or not.

I have enjoyed the movie Clueless several times.

[Luce]

My long term T was rarely clueless. The times that she was, she educated herself. She too has had extensive personal therapy, and still does intensive international training, even though she is of retirement age.

My recent short term t was pretty clueless, but still useful for what I needed her for. She seemed to be stuck in her CBT formulae mode and didn't know what to do when I rejected them. To be fair to her I need a specialist in dissociative disorders, and if a T isn't experienced with them she is not likely to be of much help to me.

[Pennster]

My therapist has been through a lot of therapy. He is rarely clueless. He tended to be slightly more clueless when I first started seeing him, because he didn't know me well so he made a few mistakes. But at this point, he's usually pretty clued in and if he starts to screw up he's really good at stopping and listening and figuring it out.

[Merecat]

Mine is fantastic, she gets it and is so measured, clear and consistent. Not in the slightest bit clueless but she too has had extensive therapy and knows what it's like to be a client, and has dealt with her own issues.

I agree with stopdog completely about Ts getting their own therapy. Even when they do it as a requirement of the course, (according to my T) some of them are just going through the motions and not properly engaged in exploring aspects of themselves, which makes the process redundant really.
Luckily my T has been through extensive therapy and ongoing supervision and seems to have a good idea about his own blindspots so he can readily recognise when something emerges in the relationship that has its basis in his 'stuff' (such as the paranoia incident a couple of months ago).
On other subjects he generally has a clue, but always emphasises that I have more of a clue about me than he does, so he can only offer suggestions and see what fits. He's not the arrogant type.

[missbella]

****This is my personal experience of therapists only.****

With one exception, mine mostly were so swept in their own self-admiring performances that the person on the receiving end was inconsequential. They apparently so needed to believe themselves Saviors that contrary evidence from their victims was merely inconvenient. From my view, therapy training certainly taught these people no authentic empathy. They were so theory-blinded and arrogant, I wonder if their training had the opposite effect.

A therapist I know in a nonprofessional setting sent me a series of emails telling me how admired she was. She literally told me she was brilliant. She's a socially inept buffoon in a normal setting; I dread her behavior with vulnerable clients.

[Ma1lgn59]

Mine was not just often clueless but TOTALLY clueless. He turned out to be psycho therapist who is now my worst nightmare. He made up stories about me that were untrue. He stalked me (but that didn't help him either). He destroyed every significant relationship in my personal life. A few are hanging on by a thread and will never be what they were. My confidence meant absolutely NOTHING to him. He treated me like an idiot. I was a fool to believe in him. Every word out of his mouth is a lie. My feelings meant nothing to him. I was not even treated humanely. He would have treated a dog better. He has destroyed me.

[Waterbear]

My T seems mainly clued up on human interaction and what is going on between us in the relationship. She gets that to offer something and not follow through hurts hugely (helped largely I think by an incident very early on in our work together) and that if she forgets she needs to come clean and tell me straight. She seems to fully understand the awkwardness around therapy and helps in whatever ways she can. She has not (so far) changed any boundaries at all and I think she would understand that it would be bad to do so without an upfront discussion and I am sure she would allow all of my comments and hurt to be at the forefront should this matter arise.

However, I still think she is largely clueless as to where I am coming from, though the last couple of weeks this may be changing, or she is just putting a better act on, though I hope it is the former. I struggle to understand how someone so seemingly clued up can be so clueless, unless I really am the first person that she has ever worked with who has got the issues that I have got. Who knows.

It is a requirement here (Ireland)that ts go to their own therapists throughout their training! The hours differ per different courses. At the moment the profession is being regulated which will hopefully get rid of a lot of ts who haven't met the requirements degree level and who haven't done their own therapy and personal development. I am shocked at the people in my class who wanted to be therapists but had never been to therapy. I was wondering how that worked but however they managed to pass. Ts are human and make mistakes and often don't think about what they say so I feel they learn as they go along with different clients after all we all have different expectations from our ts so quite often they are bound to get it wrong.

[awkwardlyyours]

ATAT -- am sorry, that seems like a pretty solid goof-up for No. 2. I know this will suck all the more but I'd consider letting her know about the f-up (since she's been otherwise rather decently clued-in so far?)?

On cluelessness among Ts -- yeah, so leaving aside my former T (not exactly great in the clued-in department), I suspect the cluelessness is also (other than being aware of their own stuff) related partly to:
- what Ts consider crucial signs of distress (if you're not exhibiting those then all's well) and partly to,
- how clients have seemed in the past (so, if you've generally appeared 'together', any change in your emotional state may have to be somewhat significant for Ts to figure it out).

Mine is very attuned. The only thing he is kind of clueless about is the degree that music impacts my well-being. It doesn't really surprise me though because I find only music performance people really understand music performance people, so I don't particularly hold that against him.

[Sarmas]

My T had therapy but she was still clueless. I guess it's sort like nursing at a hospital when you're on the floor and have so many patients it can get pretty gruesome. Once those nurses become managers or supervisors some of them forget what it's like to be a floor nurse and their expectations are unreasonable and there's a disconnect. I believe my T had several therapists and she became a therapist due to her negative experience. I really do think that she spreads herself thin. She has way to many clients and she schedules all within 2 days or so. She's also a mom who's super dedicated and engrossed with her home life. It's more than the norm. I'm not sure if all of that has caused her to be clueless. She has her favorites and there's one that I know particularly and she takes her to presentations. That's her success story and I guess she's really developed a relationship there and is hanging on to that hard. However I was lost and couldn't even get 1/4 of her attention even through sessions, emails, or texts. I felt like I was nuisance. It was enough for me to think if she created that scenario in order for me to leave. You would've thought that due to her experience that she would be so much more aware and empathetic but I think that she's so involved with other things and overwhelmed that she's clueless as to how I was affected because I can't speak for anyone else. That one client of hers probably thinks that she's the best therapist in the world and to her she most definitely might be but she's not going to be able to have that same relationship with every client. I see where she gets selective. I've been there to hear her say that in group therapy some patients just want her attention so much and "play sick". She said she doesn't play into that. You would think that she would view that different as a therapist.

[Out There]

I didn't last very long with a very clueless T. Regular T doesn't often hit the wrong notes but when he does he really does. And I like the analogy to music - he is a former musician and even the best musicians hit the wrong notes sometimes. We recently nearly ruptured but some of it was me as it's impossible to know what someone is thinking and feeling. But he was excellent at repairing his part of it. I think my pet peeve is when they don't understand that people don't always like to be approached or touched. This is interesting so thanks for starting this discussion ATAT.

[Lauliza]

I am also surprised that being in therapy is not a requirement for any training programs in the US, whether it be for a masters, phd or an md. I do think therapy is one of those things where it's hard to understand what the client experiences in any way unless you've been through it yourself. Granted, everyone's experience differs so much that even then there's no guarantee that that will make a difference with a lot of therapists. It's not always because they haven't been through therapy either- sometimes it's just youth and inexperience (especially where child behavior is the case). So many therapists make a clinical issue out of something that is just a normal part of development that it's alarming to me.

Originally Posted by Out There

I didn't last very long with a very clueless T. Regular T doesn't often hit the wrong notes but when he does he really does. And I like the analogy to music - he is a former musician and even the best musicians hit the wrong notes sometimes. We recently nearly ruptured but some of it was me as it's impossible to know what someone is thinking and feeling. But he was excellent at repairing his part of it. I think my pet peeve is when they don't understand that people don't always like to be approached or touched. This is interesting so thanks for starting this discussion ATAT.

I can't understand why some of them don't realise a lot of people in general don't like to be touched it's a common enough thing. Therapists of all people should be aware of others boundaries, they should be aware that the mere thought of touching another could induce someone into a frenzied sweat.
They are trained in these intricate dynamics of relating to people. It's a mystery to me but as someone says here that we don't know we have crossed a boundary till we bump into the electric fence.
I remember my second t used to hug me all of the time and I would just freeze up because I was tops armed to move.

[ruh roh]

I voted that mine is sometimes clueless, but I say that with mixed feelings because I have listened to myself on tape during sessions and I often am not making nearly the amount of sense I think (in my head) I'm making. So, while I think I've gotten something across very clearly, it comes out as just a bunch of vague, disconnected utterances. Other times, I don't have an answer for the breakdown in communications.

This is #2 who suggested once a month for you??? I don't get it.

[WrkNPrgress]

My Therapist is very conscious of boundaries without being cold or indifferent.
She is very cautious about what she says and how she speaks without being stilted or fake. In short I would simply call her 'mindful' and conscientious.

So I rank as very high on 'Clues'.

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by awkwardlyyours

ATAT -- am sorry, that seems like a pretty solid goof-up for No. 2. I know this will suck all the more but I'd consider letting her know about the f-up (since she's been otherwise rather decently clued-in so far?)?

Originally Posted by ruh roh

This is #2 who suggested once a month for you??? I don't get it.

In fairness the problem is both my teaching schedule and her hours as well as her schedule for travelling around to conduct training sessions. As well as her general overbookedness, which is greater than usual. She didn't suggest it so much as said that was what she could offer until January (though it didn't seem to have occurred to her this might be a problem for me, or that maybe she should have warned me about this before). So it's a case of whether or not I can live with the restraints she can work under, and I can't.

[awkwardlyyours]

You've likely already done this but on the very slight off-chance that you haven't -- have you told her that you're good with (assuming you really are) different days / times weekly? i.e., it doesn't need to be consistent?

In interviewing new Ts (and with former T when my schedule changed), I ran into scheduling problems -- they all seemed to be uniformly perplexed that I couldn't make it at times that worked for them (usually during normal business hours). And, so then it seemed like a major cognitive effort all around to figure out alternate times. I realized then that at some level, most of them seemed to think that clients value consistency of time etc and so, couldn't easily imagine not setting a regular schedule.

Of course, all this may well be moot in your case but fwiw etc.

My therapist is extremely clued in to my life and life circumstances. She has even demonstrated some understanding of what the limits are on one's existence owing to living on assistance.

However... my primary psychiatrist seems to have no idea. He knows my financial situation yet repeatedly tells me to sign up for and undertake activities that have costs attached. I've told him over and over that there simply is no money in my budget to do so. He looks at me with an expression of not understanding and infers that I am fighting his suggestions. He seems convinced that my choice not to drive is one based in anxiety when I have told him several times that I just can't afford to insure and plate my car. He gives me all kinds of menus and recipes for healthy eating despite the impossibility of affording the ingredients. Oh he's very good in other respects it just seems that empathizing with and understanding the reality of my money situation is incomprehensible.

Examples. When expressing my emotional loss and need for trees and forest he has told me to go out to the lake. Really? And how do I get there? How do I pay for the park entry fee? When expressing my wish for more physical activity (on top of the fact I walk everywhere) he tells me to go to a gym. Really? And how do I pay for that? When expressing the fact I actually hate living in the city he responds by telling me I should fly out and visit my daughter. Really? wtf

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by awkwardlyyours

You've likely already done this but on the very slight off-chance that you haven't -- have you told her that you're good with (assuming you really are) different days / times weekly? i.e., it doesn't need to be consistent?

In interviewing new Ts (and with former T when my schedule changed), I ran into scheduling problems -- they all seemed to be uniformly perplexed that I couldn't make it at times that worked for them (usually during normal business hours). And, so then it seemed like a major cognitive effort all around to figure out alternate times. I realized then that at some level, most of them seemed to think that clients value consistency of time etc and so, couldn't easily imagine not setting a regular schedule.

Of course, all this may well be moot in your case but fwiw etc.

Yup. No weekends, sessions only T-F from 9 am - 5 pm.

[BudFox]

I don't see having done therapy as part of training as necessarily a good or bad thing. I suppose it allows them to see what it's like to be a client which would be helpful presumably, but their perspective could be severely skewed if their own therapists were nuts.

first t was often totally clueless.
this t has never been. she picks up on everything and sometimes kt seems like she reads my mind.

Originally Posted by monalisasmile

They are trained in these intricate dynamics of relating to people.

Can you or someone who is training to be a therapist explain what this means?

I wonder a lot how therapists are trained to relate to clients.