[Calilady]

Do we really miss our T's? How do we miss someone we don't even know, more than some of our own family and friends?

Why am I in pain over someone who cannot offer me anything in return? It's a business transaction to them. They may care to an extent, but they are trained to remain detached. My former t was a part of my real life, but I wasn't part of hers. Yet, still, every morning since our disbanding, I wake up feeling like I've had a death in the family that isn't quite real.

Is it about them at all? Is it what they represent?

I'm just musing here. Thinking.

[anais_anais]

Cali, can i muse with you? I believe that what I am thinking about is related to your confusion, perhaps I am wrong, but perhaps not: I disagree very strongly with the idea stated frequently on this board that the therapy relationship is not a "real" relationship. It is a relationship, just as all relationships are bound by different sets of boundaries and balance. A T does not offer nothing in return- ideally they offer the expertise to help you to heal. So yes, the relationship is transactional. It can still be meaningful to you.

I would like to step away from the therapy paradigm for a moment to say that these types of relationships also exist outside of therapy. In my career it is commonplace to be strongly involved with a single mentor/teacher for a long span of years. You see them weekly, you pay them (a lot of money) by the hour, they teach you your craft and provide feedback and perspective. You often know nothing about their life or family. And yet the bond is very real. The time I have spent talking and learning with them has touched my heart. When the mentorship period is decided to be over, whether due to relocation, disagreement, or just the sense that your work together is finished, it can be a very painful and sad parting. None of this is in any way pathological, nor do people in my career hold the belief that because we pay these people and it is their job to mentor us, the relationship cannot be a meaningful one. In fact it is quite the opposite, we often hold them very dear.

This is why some of the arguments on this board baffle me. I have a feeling my view is an unpopular one. Back to you, Cali, I hope you can allow yourself to grieve, while this T ended up not being the one for you, I hope you can accept that this too was a relationship and the way you are feeling is completely ok.

[Calilady]

Originally Posted by anais_anais

Cali, can i muse with you? I believe that what I am thinking about is related to your confusion, perhaps I am wrong, but perhaps not: I disagree very strongly with the idea stated frequently on this board that the therapy relationship is not a "real" relationship. It is a relationship, just as all relationships are bound by different sets of boundaries and balance. A T does not offer nothing in return- ideally they offer the expertise to help you to heal. So yes, the relationship is transactional. It can still be meaningful to you.

I would like to step away from the therapy paradigm for a moment to say that these types of relationships also exist outside of therapy. In my career it is commonplace to be strongly involved with a single mentor/teacher for a long span of years. You see them weekly, you pay them (a lot of money) by the hour, they teach you your craft and provide feedback and perspective. You often know nothing about their life or family. And yet the bond is very real. The time I have spent talking and learning with them has touched my heart. When the mentorship period is decided to be over, whether due to relocation, disagreement, or just the sense that your work together is finished, it can be a very painful and sad parting. None of this is in any way pathological, nor do people in my career hold the belief that because we pay these people and it is their job to mentor us, the relationship cannot be a meaningful one. In fact it is quite the opposite, we often hold them very dear.

This is why some of the arguments on this board baffle me. I have a feeling my view is an unpopular one. Back to you, Cali, I hope you can allow yourself to grieve, while this T ended up not being the one for you, I hope you can accept that this too was a relationship and the way you are feeling is completely ok.

Muse away! Lol. I love to hear different points of views and I'll def be thinking about what you wrote throughout the day! Thank you for this!

[TrailRunner14]

Originally Posted by anais_anais

Cali, can i muse with you? I believe that what I am thinking about is related to your confusion, perhaps I am wrong, but perhaps not: I disagree very strongly with the idea stated frequently on this board that the therapy relationship is not a "real" relationship. It is a relationship, just as all relationships are bound by different sets of boundaries and balance. A T does not offer nothing in return- ideally they offer the expertise to help you to heal. So yes, the relationship is transactional. It can still be meaningful to you.

I would like to step away from the therapy paradigm for a moment to say that these types of relationships also exist outside of therapy. In my career it is commonplace to be strongly involved with a single mentor/teacher for a long span of years. You see them weekly, you pay them (a lot of money) by the hour, they teach you your craft and provide feedback and perspective. You often know nothing about their life or family. And yet the bond is very real. The time I have spent talking and learning with them has touched my heart. When the mentorship period is decided to be over, whether due to relocation, disagreement, or just the sense that your work together is finished, it can be a very painful and sad parting. None of this is in any way pathological, nor do people in my career hold the belief that because we pay these people and it is their job to mentor us, the relationship cannot be a meaningful one. In fact it is quite the opposite, we often hold them very dear.

This is why some of the arguments on this board baffle me. I have a feeling my view is an unpopular one. Back to you, Cali, I hope you can allow yourself to grieve, while this T ended up not being the one for you, I hope you can accept that this too was a relationship and the way you are feeling is completely ok.

I agree.

[skeksi]

I think what anais shared is very relevant. My work with my T has spanned hundreds of hours. It is a professional business transaction, but it is also an emotional one. I am no doubt more emotionally invested and attached, but I believe my T is also significantly emotionally invested. Were I to suddenly stop coming, he would be affected emotionally. Although our relationship is not mutual, I do believe that it is still a real relationship--just one that is focused on my well being, not both of ours.

I've been having a hard time without my T lately and counting down to sessions, so I appreciate your question--do I need him more, or what he represents? I think for me, maybe the answer is both. Our sessions are of great benefit to me, so it makes sense that sometimes I long for them. And he represents safety, so it makes sense I long for that, too.

[DodgersMom]

My T must be different, I do know a lot about things he loves, does for fun, his wife, his cat etc... he often just tells me without me asking. I feel we have a lot in common and relate very well to each other.

I also am lucky in not only does he encourage outside contact via text or email, but he happily replies if I do....

I pay less than most everyone else he sees... and ya a lot of other things, so its hard in a sense because he matters to me more than I do to him, thats obvious and its hard because he is paid to care for that hour a week..... but i also wonder why he is so good to me otherwise then.... It is a very real feeling for me.... yes I really miss him.

I dont have relationships with my family.... and no real friends outside my dogs.... it is very hard for me to realize that someday this will all crash and burn.... i try not to dwell on it though....

Originally Posted by anais_anais

Cali, can i muse with you? I believe that what I am thinking about is related to your confusion, perhaps I am wrong, but perhaps not: I disagree very strongly with the idea stated frequently on this board that the therapy relationship is not a "real" relationship. It is a relationship, just as all relationships are bound by different sets of boundaries and balance. A T does not offer nothing in return- ideally they offer the expertise to help you to heal. So yes, the relationship is transactional. It can still be meaningful to you.

I would like to step away from the therapy paradigm for a moment to say that these types of relationships also exist outside of therapy. In my career it is commonplace to be strongly involved with a single mentor/teacher for a long span of years. You see them weekly, you pay them (a lot of money) by the hour, they teach you your craft and provide feedback and perspective. You often know nothing about their life or family. And yet the bond is very real. The time I have spent talking and learning with them has touched my heart. When the mentorship period is decided to be over, whether due to relocation, disagreement, or just the sense that your work together is finished, it can be a very painful and sad parting. None of this is in any way pathological, nor do people in my career hold the belief that because we pay these people and it is their job to mentor us, the relationship cannot be a meaningful one. In fact it is quite the opposite, we often hold them very dear.

This is why some of the arguments on this board baffle me. I have a feeling my view is an unpopular one. Back to you, Cali, I hope you can allow yourself to grieve, while this T ended up not being the one for you, I hope you can accept that this too was a relationship and the way you are feeling is completely ok.

Thank you for this wonderful analogy.

For me, underneath the battles/feelings for my therapiist was the anger and sanded of having to mourn the loss of the perfect mother relationship.

[elisewin]

anais_anais, you put it so well and I absolutely agree with you. Myself I am doing some teaching (a skill), and I do get attached to the people I see over a long period of time. And they get attached to me. And parting is sometimes sad. Even if I get paid and they are the ones coming to me wanting something. Just like in therapy. But as both parties are human, they are real human relationships and both sides are in. And neither is "fake".

[ShashaCruz]

i have no attachment to my T at all only go so no problem with probation

Originally Posted by ShashaCruz

i have no attachment to my T at all only go so no problem with probation

Not everyone has an an attachment to their therapist or wants an attachment with any therapist, and that is OKAY too.

[stopdog]

I do not believe it is real in any sense. One does not know these people even where one thinks they do -in my opinion. They have a work persona and that persona may or may not share stories -but rarely will one know if what the therapist tells them is actually true or not. I believe they make **** up all the time and try to pass it off as real. I believe they are acting and playing a role. But if someone wants to believe the situation is not fictional and is real-it is okay with me. Bigger picture is I really don't think it matters-one either finds a use for them or not-and as long as the paid for product is what one is willing to deal with -it would seem to nothing else really matters.

[ScarletPimpernel]

I've talked to my T about something similar. She told me that in many relationships, you don't know everything about the person. Even in friendships, you often don't know a lot. And think about the beginnings of a romantic relationship; you know very little about the person, but you're in love.

I believe there's a difference between knowing information about a person and knowing a person. I know very little about my T, but I know who she is as a person (i.e. her spirit, her knowledge, her reactions, her heart). I know she is a good person. And her actions and words with me, all have meaning. That is why I love her. That is why I miss her. I don't have to know when her first kiss was, where she has traveled, what she eats for breakfast, etc. None of that matters.

[smileygal]

Originally Posted by anais_anais

Cali, can i muse with you? I believe that what I am thinking about is related to your confusion, perhaps I am wrong, but perhaps not: I disagree very strongly with the idea stated frequently on this board that the therapy relationship is not a "real" relationship. It is a relationship, just as all relationships are bound by different sets of boundaries and balance. A T does not offer nothing in return- ideally they offer the expertise to help you to heal. So yes, the relationship is transactional. It can still be meaningful to you.

I would like to step away from the therapy paradigm for a moment to say that these types of relationships also exist outside of therapy. In my career it is commonplace to be strongly involved with a single mentor/teacher for a long span of years. You see them weekly, you pay them (a lot of money) by the hour, they teach you your craft and provide feedback and perspective. You often know nothing about their life or family. And yet the bond is very real. The time I have spent talking and learning with them has touched my heart. When the mentorship period is decided to be over, whether due to relocation, disagreement, or just the sense that your work together is finished, it can be a very painful and sad parting. None of this is in any way pathological, nor do people in my career hold the belief that because we pay these people and it is their job to mentor us, the relationship cannot be a meaningful one. In fact it is quite the opposite, we often hold them very dear.

This is why some of the arguments on this board baffle me. I have a feeling my view is an unpopular one. Back to you, Cali, I hope you can allow yourself to grieve, while this T ended up not being the one for you, I hope you can accept that this too was a relationship and the way you are feeling is completely ok.

Love this post... The relationship between T and client is still a relationship. Yes, it has boundaries and limitations but as you say above so do all relationships. Money complicates things but just because you hand over money it does not mean they don't really care or stop 'caring' after the clock or money stops.

[smileygal]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I do not believe it is real in any sense. One does not know these people even where one thinks they do -in my opinion. They have a work persona and that persona may or may not share stories -but rarely will one know if what the therapist tells them is actually true or not. I believe they make **** up all the time and try to pass it off as real. I believe they are acting and playing a role. But if someone wants to believe the situation is not fictional and is real-it is okay with me. Bigger picture is I really don't think it matters-one either finds a use for them or not-and as long as the paid for product is what one is willing to deal with -it would seem to nothing else really matters.

Lots of people play roles in life in all capacities. Few people ever really know entirely what a person is really thinking and/or feeling. I have a good relationship with work colleagues and I like to think I am pretty authentic in my dealings with them but at the same time, a lot of them don't know everything about me. That doesn't mean I don't 'care' for some of them or have high regard for them. I reveal only what I choose to reveal or what I feel is appropriate for that moment in time but it does not make me fake. Sometimes I might behave differently than if the same situation or joke arose at home with friends or family. This can be for many reasons and I don't think it makes the relationship 'fake' or 'unreal'

[smileygal]

Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel

I've talked to my T about something similar. She told me that in many relationships, you don't know everything about the person. Even in friendships, you often don't know a lot. And think about the beginnings of a romantic relationship; you know very little about the person, but you're in love.

I believe there's a difference between knowing information about a person and knowing a person. I know very little about my T, but I know who she is as a person (i.e. her spirit, her knowledge, her reactions, her heart). I know she is a good person. And her actions and words with me, all have meaning. That is why I love her. That is why I miss her. I don't have to know when her first kiss was, where she has traveled, what she eats for breakfast, etc. None of that matters.

My thoughts exactly! Yes they are not revealing 'all' of themselves but you can still get to 'know' them on some level even though you don't know the day to day ins and outs of their lives....Some would even say you get to know a side of them that family members or friends might never see as they put their needs to the side. It would be a very very tough job for a T to put on a complete act and play a role that is nothing like what they are actually like day in and day out with every client. I imagine being a therapist and being yourself is tiring enough as it is without adding this extra work. Yes, sometimes they might not give their 100% honest opinion on something but there are generally good reasons for that especially if they are trying to gain your trust. It doesn't mean they are lying to you or being fake. Think about two new friends getting to know each other (although I know a T is not a friend there are some similarities e.g you don't tell your new friend straight away you hate their dress even if they ask your opinion'. Reading some of the forums often makes me wonder if some T's are such good 'actors' and as 'fake' as some suggest they might be better suited in an acting career as I imagine it's far less draining and far more fun

[Calilady]

I understand missing them a little, but at what point is it unhealthy and not about them at all?

My former t said if it should get to the point of counting down seconds until my therapy session, we'd have to discuss why, because it wasn't really about the therapy session at all and we'd have to dig deeper. I could see that by bringing this up, it made her uncomfortable to have that amount of attention directed to her, although I don't think it had anything to do with me at all but probably past clients. She was just throwing it out there, "If it gets to the point where you're counting the time down, that's something we are going to have to discuss..." is a brief example of how that conversation began.

So, if they are akin to colleagues or mentors or life coaches, why is that some of us, myself included, miss them as much as we do family/close friends/romantic partners/spouses or even more so?
What is going on that they are elevated to this higher status?
What does it truly mean for those of us who do this (admittedly, I'm 100% included in this bunch)?

Is it really about them when it gets to that level? If it isn't, what are we avoiding (in ourselves) by directing this inordinate amount of attention to them?

I bring up the question because I'm attempting to get more clarity and a deeper level of awareness in myself. What am I escaping by redirecting my focus to my therapist? What's going on with me? Etc.

[BayBrony]

Originally Posted by Calilady

I understand missing them a little, but at what point is it unhealthy and not about them at all?

My former t said if it should get to the point of counting down seconds until my therapy session, we'd have to discuss why, because it wasn't really about the therapy session at all and we'd have to dig deeper. I could see that by bringing this up, it made her uncomfortable to have that amount of attention directed to her, although I don't think it had anything to do with me at all but probably past clients. She was just throwing it out there, "If it gets to the point where you're counting the time down, that's something we are going to have to discuss..." is a brief example of how that conversation began.

So, if they are akin to colleagues or mentors or life coaches, why is that some of us, myself included, miss them as much as we do family/close friends/romantic partners/spouses or even more so?
What is going on that they are elevated to this higher status?
What does it truly mean for those of us who do this (admittedly, I'm 100% included in this bunch)?

Is it really about them when it gets to that level? If it isn't, what are we avoiding (in ourselves) by directing this inordinate amount of attention to them?

I bring up the question because I'm attempting to get more clarity and a deeper level of awareness in myself. What am I escaping by redirecting my focus to my therapist? What's going on with me? Etc.

I don't know if attachment functions as avoidance.
Certainly i manufacture conflicts with my T sometimes if the work gets too hard or my feelings get too intense. Then i obsess over th4 conflict instead of whatever I ought to be working on. My T is good at always steering stuff back to me when I do that.

But then if you are working on attachment stuff, preoccupation with the attachment figure is a normal stage of developing secure attachment ( toddlers do it, where's mom, where's dad, I want my teddy, etc non stop). My T has said the preoccupation must be "faced with compassion". Usually if you as an adult are preoccupied with an attachment figure you have deep unmet needs and deep grief. People with strong healthy relationships don't need to obsess over them becausr they KNOW they are there. Like we don't obsess over whether gravity will suddenly disappear even though we need it .

So then yes, under the preoccupation is the pain, the grief, the need....which accepting the need for an attachment figure compassionately helps you process. I am finally understanding this. Now that i am starting to feel compassion and love for my abused child self, I am not ashamed of my attachment needs. I understand why they are there in me and not in others I know. I can comfort myself over the things I can't have. And because I am not ashamed or afraid or worried about losing the attachment, it suddenly stops hurting me.

I would think you can easily get stuck in preoccupation if your T doesn't have the skill to guide you into the next step of compassion and acceptance...

Or particularly if you are shamed or somehow punished for expressing those needa

[Calilady]

Originally Posted by BayBrony

I don't know if attachment functions as avoidance.
Certainly i manufacture conflicts with my T sometimes if the work gets too hard or my feelings get too intense. Then i obsess over th4 conflict instead of whatever I ought to be working on. My T is good at always steering stuff back to me when I do that.

But then if you are working on attachment stuff, preoccupation with the attachment figure is a normal stage of developing secure attachment ( toddlers do it, where's mom, where's dad, I want my teddy, etc non stop). My T has said the preoccupation must be "faced with compassion". Usually if you as an adult are preoccupied with an attachment figure you have deep unmet needs and deep grief. People with strong healthy relationships don't need to obsess over them becausr they KNOW they are there. Like we don't obsess over whether gravity will suddenly disappear even though we need it .

So then yes, under the preoccupation is the pain, the grief, the need....which accepting the need for an attachment figure compassionately helps you process. I am finally understanding this. Now that i am starting to feel compassion and love for my abused child self, I am not ashamed of my attachment needs. I understand why they are there in me and not in others I know. I can comfort myself over the things I can't have. And because I am not ashamed or afraid or worried about losing the attachment, it suddenly stops hurting me.

I would think you can easily get stuck in preoccupation if your T doesn't have the skill to guide you into the next step of compassion and acceptance...

Or particularly if you are shamed or somehow punished for expressing those needs

Wow. My last t wouldn't have met my needs in understanding all of that.

Does your T specialize in attachment?

And I agree 100% with the part in bold.

What if we choose a T who is emotionally unavailable (in regards to attachment needs, for example, it activates their own attachment system, etc), just like my mother? Would there be room for healing, I wonder, of just enacting the same scenario like I've done most of my life. So much food for thought. Thank you!

[Calilady]

Wow BayBrony, I can't thank you enough for your reply. I'm so happy I started this thread, because it really hits home that I need to find someone who can understand the attachment.

I've always felt a void in me. Always.

This is great self reflection and exploration. You are onto something here-often it is about us. I like what Skeski said about being both.

My therapist is a psychoanalyst, so my therapy involves projecting onto him alot and also regression to early childhood years. The regression in therapy is what makes it different from other relationships-it mirrors the parent-child attachment like no other relationship does.

A young child doesn't experience the caregiver really as an individual; but rather someone who meets their needs. So, earlier in therapy, when I felt such young feelings, it really wasn't about my T. The longings I used to have were very somatic; a pull to him that came from represented my earlier years rather than my relationship with him. This was apparent to me when feeling these longings but knowing little about him, as sessions are focused on me.

As the relationship grows, a bond grows and it becomes more similar to other relationships. I feel more like an adult around him than a child now.

But I don't think it's usually about avoidance, though interesting to think about the possibility.

What if we choose a T who is emotionally unavailable (in regards to attachment needs, for example, it activates their own attachment system, etc), just like my mother?

I went through that for a long time, where the relationship was more about me (very young) and my mother than it was about me and T. It's changed since then.

[BayBrony]

I tell my T sometimes that I miss her so much that "all my insides are howling" obviously that can't ' all be about my T. She says what I am really feeling is the absence of that caring attention in all the times in my life when i needed it. She is just the model for all the caring attention I never got. We have been in a big rupture and my T has been saying " are your feelings proportionate to what happened?? If they aren't, what part of your past are those feelings really about??"
Maybe 15% of my pain is over what my T really said/did. The rest of the pain is about my internal beliefs that I am defective and people are dangerous, which is a product of my mother's mental illness and doesn't have much to do with my T. My T has enough perspective on her own reactions and our disagreements to walk me through where she really screwed up and where I am really reacting to my past and not her.

For me though I don't just do.this in T. I overreact to certain things in all my close relationships. So.its a pattern I want to change

[Calilady]

Does anyone have good books that they would recommend to purchase re: this subject?

[ruh roh]

Anais, I think that's a wonderful tradition in your professional world and it sounds like some therapy relationships have that same quality (I am glad yours does). I do think that the therapy profession does not have that same culture, though, so for many (if not most), there isn't that same quality.

In my case, my therapist said hers is 100% professional involvement/perspective. Nothing personal. She did say that she cares about and likes some clients a lot, but sometimes those where there isn't that same level of feeling do some really great work and those where there are those feelings of a lot of caring don't do as much work. And then there are variations that run the gamut in between. She didn't tell me where I was in that scheme of things, so I am assuming I am in the generic middle. Basically, she was illustrating to me how in either case she is viewing the relationship much differently than the client does--which makes sense. So while I would love the kind of relationship you talk about in your music world, I don't have the kind of therapist who views her role in that way and there is no point in pining after it or looking for it anywhere because I think that is more the norm in therapy (that it's 100% professional/no personal feelings).

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by Calilady

Why am I in pain over someone who cannot offer me anything in return? It's a business transaction to them. They may care to an extent, but they are trained to remain detached. My former t was a part of my real life, but I wasn't part of hers. Yet, still, every morning since our disbanding, I wake up feeling like I've had a death in the family that isn't quite real.

I think it's because therapist role playing encourages idealization. In my view that is a deadly trap. It's a black hole. Hard to think about anything else once a savior has appeared in your life.

As for the not offering anything in return and remaining detached and appearing to care, this is considered standard therapeutic technique, but I found it to be covertly sadistic and just plain bizarre.