[Anastasia~]

Clinical Resources - Understanding Mentalizing

Jon G. Allen, PHD wrote an article on mentalizing, which is thought to be a problem with people with attachment disorders/personality disorders. This explains one process as to how the therapeutic relationship helps people. I broke the article down and read it at three different times. I think it is really interesting.

I looked this up because I am having difficulty at work with my boss. I'm not sure if I did something to annoy him but think I did. It drives me crazy and I know mentalizing includes what we think others are thinking. As I read on, it talks about too much mentalizing can be harmful if you are ultrasensitive to what others think of you (check). I wish I could just shut this function down because it DRIVES ME CRAZY!!! I wish I was oblivious to this kind of thing. It ratchets up my anxiety and makes me go in my mind to the worst place possible.

There are youtube videos also where the doctor explains things more generally and give you an idea what mentalization is.

Here's what I'm thinking about how/what you all might be thinking: I wonder if people will think this is boring and not read anything and it might not help anybody just because it does me. Feel free to share your mindstate, or not

[feileacan]

Thanks for the pointer. I think it is a must read for me because I'm probably very bad at mentalizing. I just scrolled it through right now and found this:

"Normally, when we interact with others, we automatically go beneath the surface, basing our responses on a sense of what underlies the other person's behavior, namely, an active mind and a wealth of mental experience. Thus we are natural mind readers, and mentalizing entails accurate and effective mind reading."

To me, it's definitely not "normal". I've discovered that I listen/read peoples' words and infer from that what they want to say. It doesn't occur to me that there is something behind these words and that people are actually trying to express this something.

When I think about people in general then I get a sense of boredom and I've understood that this is because I actually don't think about people as possessing and "active mind and a wealth of mental experience". I don't really know how this is possible because I know for fact that I'm not the only one with the "active mind and a wealth of mental experience" but somehow in the way I sense the world this knowledge doesn't sink in.

[unaluna]

I once told my t that i thought mentalization (m) was dumb. I like this article though. They present m as being what humans have or can do besides just instinctual stuff, besides just zoning out or following directions. Its who is home when there is somebody home upstairs. Its us taking responsibility. Its us turning 18 or 21 or whatever and saying this is me. Im woke now.

[cinnamon_roll]

Thank you for this.
I've only skipped through this, haven't got the time right now, but I've bookmarked the article and will come back to it at a later point.

I probably mentalize "too much", esp. with regard to others. And it is probably my strategy to avoid "danger" - so I to all the anticipating I possibly can...Constant red alert.

I do it automatically, it's like a reflex, and I struggle to consciously stop this. I have the strong tendency to walk in their shoes too much, to "hijack" their issues and their emotions.

And by doing this I tend to avoid my inner void. That's the flip side for me: Whereas my capacity for "getting" the others is totally overdeveloped, the capacity for "feeling" myself, my feelings, my emotions is underdeveloped. My sense of self is very fragile. Whenever there's too much from the "other/s" this tends to overwrite my own things.

So the challenge lies in "turning off" the too much with regard to the outside. Whereas I need to practice my perception/s again and again with regard to myself. Which is deeply confusing. And it creates a lot of anxiety, since the focus on the others was my survival strategy when I was younger...
Also, this learning to "read" myself quite often feels like kindergarten-stuff. Basic things like: How do I know what I'm feeling? That I'm angry? That I'm happy? And how do I process this, and even more important: express this?

This will probably keep me busy for a long time to come...

[here today]

I also "turned off" a lot of inner stuff before I started going to therapy, including awareness of certain instincts and visceral emotions. It now seems ridiculous to expect someone who came into therapy doing that to integrate the previously disowned stuff with no help other than a therapist once a week. I especially liked this:

Many persons with serious psychiatric disorders require intensive treatment. Medication or individual psychotherapy alone—or even their combination—won't always do. . . . Crucial to such treatment is a social environment that provides support, a feeling of belonging and ample formal and informal opportunities to confide in peers and learn from them.

Not just in-patient or IOP programs, but on-going resocialization programs would do a lot for people with moderate and chronic mental health issues, such as those related to trauma and possible personality disorders, I think. The 2 IOP programs I went to did nothing long-term for me. People like me may need new social experiences to effectively mentalize things differently. But with our (existing) problems we stay away or otherwise don't get those new experiences. Once a week with a therapist is NOT enough and, as we see in this forum over and over, may just be unresolved re-enactment of old patterns. That's something that is a lot more prone to happen in a one-on-one relationship than in a group, although I don't discount the importance an individual therapist or counselor might make in helping to process, and mentalize, the new experiences. As long as they approach things as a friend or peer, not an "expert".

There's a lot of focus on severe and persistent mental illness but not so much on the moderate and chronic, and what might be done to help us participate AND be a more functional member of society -- that's for our benefit and happiness, but also for the society as a whole.

But that's just me and the way I see it.

[chihirochild]

Just chiming in to add that I recently listened to a fantastic audiobook on attachment theory that talked a lot about mentalizing: it's called "Attachment in Psychotherapy" and it's by David J. Wallin.

(If anyone else belongs to a public library that subscribes to a service called Hoopla, you can download the audiobook for free!)

[Anastasia~]

Thanks to all who replied. My emotions are at the surface for some reason and it's such a relief, although I still have some stuck it feels like. I'm tired of intellectualizing about my problems, it's nice to finally just feel something. The positive in just feeling is I don't have to prove or disprove any point as I do when I intellectualize to avoid feelings. I just want to be.

[Anastasia~]

OK, I'm back to thinking again. That was different yesterday.

[Anastasia~]

Here is an youtube video that talks about people with
Borderline Personality Disorder and attachment difficulty while some of it is boring, I found it to be interesting. It talks about studies that have been done, and how BPD people fare on them, and why.

[awkwardlyyours]

Just thought I'd post about a weird coincidence (which I guess could be explained by a bunch of other stuff but I still find it pretty neat!) related to this thread.

I hadn't (still haven't!) read the article -- I skimmed the first couple of paragraphs yesterday and left it because I didn't think it was terribly relevant to me.

I had my session last night and current T -- rather unusually because she rarely ever uses psych language -- said that a lot of my issues (E.g. I don't feel like I have a sense of self and find it really rather odd when other people express concern about "me") could be tied to the absence of the capacity for mentalization, which in turn reflected developmental trauma that she's already said is a major issue for me (she prefaced it all with her usual apologies for using psycho-babble).

I guess at that time things clicked in place for me and I remembered this article.

So, thanks for posting! I've just picked up a couple of Fonagy's books on mentalization.

[Anastasia~]

Originally Posted by awkwardlyyours

Just thought I'd post about a weird coincidence (which I guess could be explained by a bunch of other stuff but I still find it pretty neat!) related to this thread.

I hadn't (still haven't!) read the article -- I skimmed the first couple of paragraphs yesterday and left it because I didn't think it was terribly relevant to me.

I had my session last night and current T -- rather unusually because she rarely ever uses psych language -- said that a lot of my issues (E.g. I don't feel like I have a sense of self and find it really rather odd when other people express concern about "me") could be tied to the absence of the capacity for mentalization, which in turn reflected developmental trauma that she's already said is a major issue for me (she prefaced it all with her usual apologies for using psycho-babble).

I guess at that time things clicked in place for me and I remembered this article.

So, thanks for posting! I've just picked up a couple of Fonagy's books on mentalization.

That's interesting! I'm glad it was of help to you. Let me know how Fonagy's books are.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by chihirochild

Just chiming in to add that I recently listened to a fantastic audiobook on attachment theory that talked a lot about mentalizing: it's called "Attachment in Psychotherapy" and it's by David J. Wallin.

(If anyone else belongs to a public library that subscribes to a service called Hoopla, you can download the audiobook for free!)

This is the book that really opened my eyes about what was missing in my childhood. Its hard to quantify neglect.

[Anastasia~]

I actually read J. Wallin's book a long time ago but I don't remember much from it. I'll have to find it and read it again.

Originally Posted by Anastasia~

Thanks to all who replied. My emotions are at the surface for some reason and it's such a relief, although I still have some stuck it feels like. I'm tired of intellectualizing about my problems, it's nice to finally just feel something. The positive in just feeling is I don't have to prove or disprove any point as I do when I intellectualize to avoid feelings. I just want to be.

I once got tired of intellectualizing all the time and stopped. Unfortunately, i got depression afterwards. Generally, i think its a good thing to get out of your head, and experience your senses more fully. Nature feels especially good.

[Anastasia~]

Rayne,
Sorry you got depression after stopping intellectualizing. I feel like it's like a part of me, really, although I know it's just a defense. My feeling state just lasted a day and now is gone. It was a different experience, though.