[ChickenNoodleSoup]

This is not directly a question about therapy, but I'd like to know what you guys think about this, given that I will talk about it with my T on Friday and I would like to hear from different people what they think of the issue. We already talked about it a bit today, but I feel my T is not quite sure how to respond either, that's why I'd like to hear what other people think. It might be a bit triggering to some, just as a warning.

I have a rather good life currently, apart from the fact that I need therapy. I have a great education, live in a nice country, am healthy physically and so on. However, I am almost certain that my quality of life will decrease rather quickly, just based on what's happening to the world. I expect that by the time I'm 40 or 50 years old, I'll not have a lot of luxuries that I currently have, as well as that the world in general might not be that nice of a place to be in by then. And there is not a lot I, or anyone else for that matter, can do about it. Although this is not a certainty, the probability for this to happen is incredibly high. And if it does, it's a horrible way to live.

Therefore, I feel it's rather senseless to get better in the now. T and I talked today about managing your fears, getting less agitated and scared by things and so on. But I feel that even if I do that now, it won't change the fact that in a few years I'll be in a far worse place than currently. And I can't imagine that at that time I'd feel that the emotional skills I might learn would serve me a whole lot. If everything around you is falling apart, it won't matter whether you're able to tolerate being scared a bit better, you'll still be scared to bits. So to me, the best option is to enjoy life for a year or two and then die while life is still good. I would compare it to receiving the news that with a 99% probability I'll have Alzheimer's disease in two years. I'd live life to the fullest and then die before I turn into a lifeless shell of a human being.

I know that my T will say that there is sense in improving in the now. We already kind of discussed this today, but I feel T doesn't really know either or that he struggles explaining his thoughts on it. I fail to see what that sense is, given that the things I could improve will all only serve me in the short term. Long term, I expect that it would not change too much about either my situation or the feelings I would have when living like that. I will still know about my future and while I might accept it as my future, it would still mean a lot of suffering.

So, I wonder how other people see this. If long term you will suffer, why is there still any use in improving your current emotional state? How does it serve you? My mind tells me that if I improve my current state of mind, I will be less likely to die by suicide. But that would actually increase my suffering in the long run. Therefore, it is actually worse to get better. I feel that it is hopeless to work on things like managing emotions since it would make my future worse, not better, which I find discouraging.

[Anne2.0]

I have a difficult time relating to the premise of your post, which is that you can predict the future, and because I'm a lot older than you. With life experience comes some perspective on the value of life right now, or at least it has for me, and parenting a now late teen has confirmed that for me. So has losing my spouse to cancer when he was 46, in the 4 months he lived after his terminal diagnosis, I would never say that having a short time to live doesn't matter. If how you live right now matters when you know *for sure* you are going to die within months, I really can't get how any situation requires you to just suffer now. I don't believe in suffering, I believe in doing. Right now.

Have you studied mindfulness at all? Pretty much now is all that matters. Enjoying my life right now, living how I can right now, that's all I can or want to do. I might fall down my stairs and break my neck in the next five minutes, or I might live to be over 100 in a world that is nothing like we can imagine it now. I do share some henny-penny type reactions to the climate change and political world we currently live in, but I think what's going to happen is not terribly well known however many articles on the internet warn us.

I've felt similar. But then I'm reminded that this and worse has happened before in history. That now is not a uniquely awful time.
Is at this point that I detach from projecting into the future and remember I'm in this world bit I don't have to involved in the dramas around me. Just live in the moment. Tomorrow is Just that.

[awkwardlyyours]

I sense a bit of a fallacy in your argument but maybe you don’t — so, take this for what it’s worth.

I don’t think the person I will be — in terms of the mental state, emotional resilience, actual thoughts as well as the extent to which I’m swayed by such thoughts etc — in the future is the same as what my imagination tells me right now that I will be.

As in, upon changing (under the presumption that it’s a change for the “better” as defined by me uniquely) internally, I am much less likely, if not absolutely unable to be the same person with the exact same ideas / fears etc that I thought I was, prior to that change.

Conversely, prior to changing, I am severely limited in my capacity to understand how I’ll feel / be post that change and so, thoughts about it at present don’t tell me much about where I’ll be.

In many ways, I believe it’s a significant reason as to why folks are so unwilling to make changes — even for the better. Basically, because we cannot somehow “fit” the current way of (internal) life / thinking with how we’ll be, once the changes take place.

That’s not to take away from real suffering that people could experience due to sudden, drastic change in their personal circumstances but I get the sense that you’re talking of stuff that you believe is likely to happen on a more broad scale and not just affecting you personally.

I hate to do this (it generally pisses me off when other people have told me this) but I realized this sort of conundrum — a place my intellect cannot take me because it’s totally foreign and can only catch up once I’ve had the experience(s) — is rather common after I started meditating. I didn’t know how I’d change upon meditating regularly and so no amount of thinking about it, helped me “get there”.

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

I have a difficult time relating to the premise of your post, which is that you can predict the future, and because I'm a lot older than you. With life experience comes some perspective on the value of life right now, or at least it has for me, and parenting a now late teen has confirmed that for me. So has losing my spouse to cancer when he was 46, in the 4 months he lived after his terminal diagnosis, I would never say that having a short time to live doesn't matter. If how you live right now matters when you know *for sure* you are going to die within months, I really can't get how any situation requires you to just suffer now. I don't believe in suffering, I believe in doing. Right now.

Have you studied mindfulness at all? Pretty much now is all that matters. Enjoying my life right now, living how I can right now, that's all I can or want to do. I might fall down my stairs and break my neck in the next five minutes, or I might live to be over 100 in a world that is nothing like we can imagine it now. I do share some henny-penny type reactions to the climate change and political world we currently live in, but I think what's going to happen is not terribly well known however many articles on the internet warn us.

I did not intend to say I can predict the future. Of course it could turn out far better than expected. I'd ask the same thing if I was diagnosed with some likely terminal illness for example.

What I meant to say:
I feel that (and I think this feeling might be wrong, but I can't see how) it can be that you improve things about the now and this gives you less options in the future. If I invest now in feeling better, then right now I feel better, but I might feel much worse in the future. And feeling better might prevent me from feeling so bad I decide to end my life early. Say with a disease, there are lots of people that would rather die peacefully and not get treated than to get treated, extend their life for a bit but then suffer even more. But once you start treatment, it's a lot harder to just say you give up. You already invested and are therefore less likely to change your opinion. That's why I feel that while I would like to feel better in the now, it might hurt me in the future and I should therefore not pursue it. Which might not make any sense and that's why I'm asking others where the issue in my thoughts is. I will talk to my T about mindfulness, I think we did a bit of that but not a whole lot.

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

Originally Posted by awkwardlyyours

I sense a bit of a fallacy in your argument but maybe you don’t — so, take this for what it’s worth.

I don’t think the person I will be — in terms of the mental state, emotional resilience, actual thoughts as well as the extent to which I’m swayed by such thoughts etc — in the future is the same as what my imagination tells me right now that I will be.

As in, upon changing (under the presumption that it’s a change for the “better” as defined by me uniquely) internally, I am much less likely, if not absolutely unable to be the same person with the exact same ideas / fears etc that I thought I was, prior to that change.

Conversely, prior to changing, I am severely limited in my capacity to understand how I’ll feel / be post that change and so, thoughts about it at present don’t tell me much about where I’ll be.

In many ways, I believe it’s a significant reason as to why folks are so unwilling to make changes — even for the better. Basically, because we cannot somehow “fit” the current way of (internal) life / thinking with how we’ll be, once the changes take place.

That’s not to take away from real suffering that people could experience due to sudden, drastic change in their personal circumstances but I get the sense that you’re talking of stuff that you believe is likely to happen on a more broad scale and not just affecting you personally.

I hate to do this (it generally pisses me off when other people have told me this) but I realized this sort of conundrum — a place my intellect cannot take me because it’s totally foreign and can only catch up once I’ve had the experience(s) — is rather common after I started meditating. I didn’t know how I’d change upon meditating regularly and so no amount of thinking about it, helped me “get there”.

Actually, this is exactly what I'm looking for. I know that most probably there's a fallacy in my thinking, but I can't see it myself, which happens to me sometimes. I'll have to think about what you said, but I appreciate your answer!

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by ChickenNoodleSoup

That's why I feel that while I would like to feel better in the now, it might hurt me in the future and I should therefore not pursue it. Which might not make any sense and that's why I'm asking others where the issue in my thoughts is. I will talk to my T about mindfulness, I think we did a bit of that but not a whole lot.

I don't buy your argument or see any evidence for the assumption that feeling better now will somehow hurt you in the future. Have you gone through a period of feeling terrible and then feeling better? I have, quite a few times, and I've been as close to understanding how important now is when a person has only a few months to live as I think one can be. When my spouses was dying, what mattered was how can he have the best quality of life right now? Whether that was pain meds or homemade borscht or a movie at 2am, that's what we did. Not worrying about what might happen tomorrow, or next week, or next month.

I feel so much better now than I did four years ago. And I've had other periods of feeling better after feeling worse. No question for me that feeling better is sort of a skill in itself, that I've gotten better with experience as well as help from therapy. But I think it's the opposite of what you believe, that feeling better now helps you feel better in the future.

And if what you're really driving at is suicide, I think that's a personal choice that can be invoked by a person at any time for any reason. I don't have any moral issues with it. I think it may not be a strong basis for making other life decisions.

[ChickenNoodleSoup]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

I don't buy your argument or see any evidence for the assumption that feeling better now will somehow hurt you in the future. Have you gone through a period of feeling terrible and then feeling better? I have, quite a few times, and I've been as close to understanding how important now is when a person has only a few months to live as I think one can be. When my spouses was dying, what mattered was how can he have the best quality of life right now? Whether that was pain meds or homemade borscht or a movie at 2am, that's what we did. Not worrying about what might happen tomorrow, or next week, or next month.

I feel so much better now than I did four years ago. And I've had other periods of feeling better after feeling worse. No question for me that feeling better is sort of a skill in itself, that I've gotten better with experience as well as help from therapy. But I think it's the opposite of what you believe, that feeling better now helps you feel better in the future.

And if what you're really driving at is suicide, I think that's a personal choice that can be invoked by a person at any time for any reason. I don't have any moral issues with it. I think it may not be a strong basis for making other life decisions.

Actually, I think that might be kind of the issue, I have never felt really like things went better, so that's why I assume it will always be bad anyways and might not be worth it... (not saying that that is actually the case, that's just how I felt).

The way you put it with your souse actually makes me feel a lot better and makes a lot of sense to me, thank you!

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by ChickenNoodleSoup

Actually, I think that might be kind of the issue, I have never felt really like things went better, so that's why I assume it will always be bad anyways and might not be worth it... (not saying that that is actually the case, that's just how I felt).

I get that, because there are times when I have felt like things were never going to get any better. Maybe where you are right now in the midst of the bad, if you're depressed, that's what depression loves to believe, it's the hardest to see the value in something better. Especially if you don't think you can get there.

I think you can get better. I think you can cultivate a mindset where you see the near future as quite possibly positive. And that will change how you do things in the now, like right now what can you do that will increase your quality of life today? Yesterday the answer was to take my dog for an early morning walk and not wait until evening. Spending a hour out with the trees and the flowers was good. I think if you can believe things can get better, you do things that do in fact make things be better.

[Argonautomobile]

Remember those musicians on the Titanic who played the violin while it sank? Yeah, the ship's goin' down and there ain't nothin' anyone can do about it -- but in the meantime one could choose to practice an art, make something beautiful, maybe bring comfort to others.

[Rive.]

I may be missing something but how do you know that long-term, you will suffer?

Tomorrow, and what it brings, is never guaranteed. However bleak the future seems, one can never know for sure. Life can turn on a dime. Probability-wise it would, objectively, be 50-50 anyway. So, why give up in the now when there is still hope?

At least, that's my opinion.

[here today]

Times may be hard in the future, and then change. If you're not here then you won't be able to help participate in what comes next.

It's my belief that pain serves a purpose. What is it? It disrupts things -- actions, intentions, relationships -- that aren't/can't work realistically in the world (any more). Those are "formed" with some joy or anticipation. When someone dies, or we fail at what we intended, or we stub our toe -- that which we are engaged in has to change, too, perhaps, in order to be in sync with what else is going on in the world. And the negativity or pain has a function in that happening inside of us.

It may be that you will be one of those who don't get to weather the next storm or whatever -- and it might be horrible drowning or being poverty-stricken or whatever. But if you can work on things now, and improve your health and mental heath, if you can, then. . .seems to me like your chances are better to find happiness in the future, too. Though it may look very different from what makes you happy now. And it might not work out that way either.

There's really just no way to know or control a lot of it. What can you control? Mindfulness does have some techniques for living calmly in the present. Living fully in the present, like you said you would do if you knew with a 99% certainty that Alzheimer's disease was in your future in 2 years, seems like a good idea, too, to the extent that it is practical -- whether disaster will strike or not.

[luvyrself]

I’m not going to be nice here. Oh boohoo let’s not fight the nazis (my dad battle of the bulge), let’s not fight for the rights of all Americans ( every era), let’s not exercise and stay interested in things and fight to beat cancer and Alzheimer’s and global warming, let’s not adopt an animal that would be euthanized, let’s not tutor a student. Let’s just lay down like a complete coward because a disorder is tricking us into negative thoughts. I taught in the inner city, saved school libraries in the recession despite some confusion from my disorder and it helped me feel better every day. Get up and do something , sign up to do something NOW. Then report back to all of us. Did u feel worse? Doubt it.

This makes me think of acting on impulse vs delayed gratification..actually I have no idea what your situation is.

What comes to mind are simple examples such as spending all of one's life savings or retirement account and living it up now as opposed to saving it. It's a gamble. Either way comes with a price. Weigh the pros and cons.

Relationships seem to matter most.