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  #26  
Old Feb 12, 2019, 04:15 AM
missbella missbella is offline
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TELL’s reading list includes a 800-page book by Gary Schoener which sounds hard to get, but maybe they can help. Author Susan Penfold is both a practitioner and survivor.
https://www.therapyabuse.org/RS_sugreadings.htm
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  #27  
Old Feb 12, 2019, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by missbella View Post
TELL’s reading list includes a 800-page book by Gary Schoener which sounds hard to get, but maybe they can help. Author Susan Penfold is both a practitioner and survivor.
https://www.therapyabuse.org/RS_sugreadings.htm
I’ve been in contact with Gary Schoener. He’s appeared on a panel on Oprah talking about the subject, as well. Not sure if he’s retired or not but he founded or co-founded the “Walk-In Counseling Center” in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
Home - Walk-In

My experience with Dr. Schoener: he accepted a ‘cold call’ from me all those years ago and was the person to refer me to a great therapist knowledgeable about therapist exploitation, PrevT.
I feel they likely saved my life, at the time.

He’s not only an expert on therapist exploitation, he’s a great guy.
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  #28  
Old Feb 13, 2019, 03:00 AM
missbella missbella is offline
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Originally Posted by precaryous View Post
I’ve been in contact with Gary Schoener. He’s appeared on a panel on Oprah talking about the subject, as well. Not sure if he’s retired or not but he founded or co-founded the “Walk-In Counseling Center” in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
Home - Walk-In

My experience with Dr. Schoener: he accepted a ‘cold call’ from me all those years ago and was the person to refer me to a great therapist knowledgeable about therapist exploitation, PrevT.
I feel they likely saved my life, at the time.

He’s not only an expert on therapist exploitation, he’s a great guy.
That’s wonderful to learn. We exchanged a few emails years ago, likely via TELL.
  #29  
Old Feb 13, 2019, 03:05 AM
missbella missbella is offline
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Originally Posted by precaryous View Post
Not research and not necessarily new, but I’ve found a few first hand accounts of therapist exploitation:
“You Must Be Dreaming”

“Fish In A Barrel”

I’ll add more when i find them.
Another tough book, Ellen Plasil’s Therapist about a very complex exploitation and brave aftermath. Schoener might have recommended it, come to think about it.
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  #30  
Old Feb 13, 2019, 03:24 AM
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"Folie A Deux: An Experience of One-to-One Therapy" by Rosie Alexander is a tough one to read, at least for me it was. But it was also a page turner.
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  #31  
Old Feb 13, 2019, 11:55 AM
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Forgive me if it’s been mentioned before but there is a book from 1972 that supports therapist/patient sexual intimacies:

“The Love Treatment” by Martin Shepard


https://www.amazon.com/Love-Treatmen.../dp/0446668265

I bought it once. Gave it away.
  #32  
Old Feb 13, 2019, 02:45 PM
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O. - M. - G. (Just plain O.M.G. was too short.)
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  #33  
Old Feb 13, 2019, 02:55 PM
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I wonder if anyone has ever written and published a book that talks about emotional abuse in therapy via gaslighting and the devastating consequences it creates. I am not talking about books that criticize therapy as a system. There are some of those available. I am talking about someone describing their personal experience in such therapy and later during the aftermath in the same way people who were sexually abused by therapists told their stories. I don't think there is any such book, even though, I believe, this type of abuse is more common than sexual, financial or any other where the ethical boundaries are obviously broken. I am talking about clients' experiences in which NO formal ethical boundary ever gets broken and yet they create the devastation often similar to more obvious forms of abuse and the clients, who are victims of it, get a much harder time being validated by others, because many people don't even understand what they are talking about since no formal violation can be described or pointed out.
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  #34  
Old Feb 13, 2019, 04:37 PM
Anne2.0 Anne2.0 is offline
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Originally Posted by Ididitmyway View Post
I I don't there is any such book, even though, I believe, this type of abuse is more common than sexual, financial or any other where the ethical boundaries are obviously broken. I am talking about clients' experiences in which NO formal ethical boundary ever gets broken and yet they create the devastation often similar to more obvious forms of abuse and the clients, who are victims of it, get a much harder time being validated by others, because many people don't even understand what they are talking about since no formal violation can be described or pointed out.
I would argue that any form of emotional abuse by a therapist violates the ethical standards for competent care. I don't see how the perpetration of emotional abuse could be said to be within the boundaries of competent care. Perhaps the larger issue is proving what was said, whereas financial exploitation leaves a trail and sexual abuse can often be proved, if denied. So I don't think the problem of emotional abuse is that it doesn't violate ethical boundaries or the code of ethics. I also think that competent care could involve problems other than emotional abuse, but emotional abuse would always be a violation of the standard of care.
  #35  
Old Feb 13, 2019, 05:26 PM
Topiarysurvivor Topiarysurvivor is offline
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Originally Posted by Ididitmyway View Post
I wonder if anyone has ever written and published a book that talks about emotional abuse in therapy via gaslighting and the devastating consequences it creates. I am not talking about books that criticize therapy as a system. There are some of those available. I am talking about someone describing their personal experience in such therapy and later during the aftermath in the same way people who were sexually abused by therapists told their stories. I don't think there is any such book, even though, I believe, this type of abuse is more common than sexual, financial or any other where the ethical boundaries are obviously broken. I am talking about clients' experiences in which NO formal ethical boundary ever gets broken and yet they create the devastation often similar to more obvious forms of abuse and the clients, who are victims of it, get a much harder time being validated by others, because many people don't even understand what they are talking about since no formal violation can be described or pointed out.
Interesting. Gaslighting was a huge part of my experience. I'm having trouble imagining a scenario in which emotional abuse wouldn't violate ethics, although I can imagine that it would be very hard to prove.
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  #36  
Old Feb 13, 2019, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Topiarysurvivor View Post
Interesting. Gaslighting was a huge part of my experience. I'm having trouble imagining a scenario in which emotional abuse wouldn't violate ethics, although I can imagine that it would be very hard to prove.
It's, actually, quite easy to emotionally abuse clients without violating formal ethics. Emotional abuse in therapy settings is often disguised as a therapeutic technique of interpretation, which is a totally fair game from the official legal and ethical standpoint. If a therapist tells you that your anger towards them is a manifestation of your transference and has nothing to do with a therapist's behavior, even though you know damn well that it does, that's gaslighting a.k.a emotional abuse. But a therapist is not going to get in any trouble for this because the licensing board will construe his remarks as a perfectly legitimate therapy technique of interpretation. This is besides the fact that the content of your conversations in sessions cannot be proven, because, even if it can, a therapist is not going to suffer any consequences anyway.
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  #37  
Old Feb 13, 2019, 05:43 PM
missbella missbella is offline
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Originally Posted by Anne2.0 View Post
I would argue that any form of emotional abuse by a therapist violates the ethical standards for competent care. I don't see how the perpetration of emotional abuse could be said to be within the boundaries of competent care. Perhaps the larger issue is proving what was said, whereas financial exploitation leaves a trail and sexual abuse can often be proved, if denied. So I don't think the problem of emotional abuse is that it doesn't violate ethical boundaries or the code of ethics. I also think that competent care could involve problems other than emotional abuse, but emotional abuse would always be a violation of the standard of care.

I've observed wide disagreement about what constitutes emotional abuse. I find Dr. Phil a glib, bullying blowhard. Yet the American Psychological Association gave him an award and made him their keynote convention speaker.

I found myself in an Amazon reviewer skirmish over an "ethics" book by a prominent teacher on that subject. The author used composite fictional accounts to illustrate various ethics topics. Yet I found each of the illustrative patients in her stories contemptible, buffoonish and stupider than any human being I've known in real life. My review was answered with scorn and discrediting from this author's fans (presumably ethicists and ethics students), and the author who wailed I didn't understand her.

Closer to home, I lost my grievance, which included a psych social worker announcing "something about you makes me want to kick you." The psychologist co-therapist now states on his website that "optimal pain" is necessary for growth. I suppose he supplies it if her feels his clients haven't suffered enough, as when he insisted his ridiculing comments were to "challenge me."

I only conclude there is wide disagreement on around the topic of respect and large disparity about just what comprises the means to an end.
In my experience though, the client didn't get a vote.
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  #38  
Old Feb 13, 2019, 05:46 PM
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An article of interest:

"The Perversion of the Professional Caring Relationship"

http://thebowlbycentre.org.uk/wp-con...rial-V1-N3.pdf
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  #39  
Old Feb 13, 2019, 05:57 PM
Topiarysurvivor Topiarysurvivor is offline
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OMG - this is what I have been looking for! Two pages in, the book is putting into words the confusion of sorting out what role this person has had in my life.

Thank you!!!
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  #40  
Old Feb 13, 2019, 05:59 PM
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Ididitmyway Ididitmyway is offline
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Once again, I will stress and underscore the word "formal" when I insist that emotional abuse can and does occur in therapy perfectly within the formal boundaries of what is considered a competent professional care.

When I show examples of how this can occur, we can all agree that the therapist's actions were emotionally abusive, but the issue is that the licensing boards, the professional ethics committees and the professional community as a whole do not see it as abuse. They see it as a therapist doing their job and a client demonstrating their lack of understanding that a therapist is simply doing their job, which, in their view, only confirms a client's mental disturbance, but in no way implies that a therapist did something wrong.

So what we see rightfully as abuse is not defined as such by the formal professional standards.
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  #41  
Old Feb 13, 2019, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by EG1991 View Post
An article of interest:

"The Perversion of the Professional Caring Relationship"

http://thebowlbycentre.org.uk/wp-con...rial-V1-N3.pdf
Thank you so much for this resource. This study makes an important point that the focus should be on understanding how harm happens as opposed to punishing the wrongdoers. Many therapists who harm have no idea that they are harming. Punishing them without educating them about why their actions were harmful and without helping them understand their own unaddressed trauma that contributed into their behavior would not achieve anything. Punishment alone would not teach them anything and would not change the current state of affairs in the system.
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  #42  
Old Feb 14, 2019, 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Ididitmyway View Post
Thank you so much for this resource. This study makes an important point that the focus should be on understanding how harm happens as opposed to punishing the wrongdoers. Many therapists who harm have no idea that they are harming. Punishing them without educating them about why their actions were harmful and without helping them understand their own unaddressed trauma that contributed into their behavior would not achieve anything. Punishment alone would not teach them anything and would not change the current state of affairs in the system.
While I agree in principle, I haven’t seen re-education do much. My ex-T was given re-education and training as opposed to punishment for her first and second offenses. Yet she still did the same thing with me afterwards— and because she wasn’t punished, nothing came up when I googled her license (to see if she was safe) and me (and others) were subject to her abuse 10 years after her first offense.
  #43  
Old Feb 14, 2019, 03:12 AM
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While I agree in principle, I haven’t seen re-education do much. My ex-T was given re-education and training as opposed to punishment for her first and second offenses. Yet she still did the same thing with me afterwards— and because she wasn’t punished, nothing came up when I googled her license (to see if she was safe) and me (and others) were subject to her abuse 10 years after her first offense.
I didn't say education should be given instead of punishment. I said that punishment alone doesn't achieve much either. All it teaches a perpetrator is to become more skillful in playing the system. As I said in my previous posts, much harm can be done without ever crossing formal ethical boundaries.

Also, I agree that the way education is done currently doesn't help. The courses that they are mandated to take simply intend to refresh their memory on formal ethics and laws, which is something they were supposed to know before they transgressed. This has to change. Instead of explaining to them once again what they studied in the grad school, they need to be explained how their actions affected their clients.

Purely punitive actions don't raise consciousness. They don't force therapists to think about clients' well-being any more than they did before, but they do force them to do everything possible to cover their butts, and then the way they practice becomes more about avoiding liability than about clients' well-being.
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  #44  
Old Feb 14, 2019, 10:50 AM
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I didn't say education should be given instead of punishment. I said that punishment alone doesn't achieve much either. All it teaches a perpetrator is to become more skillful in playing the system. As I said in my previous posts, much harm can be done without ever crossing formal ethical boundaries.

Also, I agree that the way education is done currently doesn't help. The courses that they are mandated to take simply intend to refresh their memory on formal ethics and laws, which is something they were supposed to know before they transgressed. This has to change. Instead of explaining to them once again what they studied in the grad school, they need to be explained how their actions affected their clients.

Purely punitive actions don't raise consciousness. They don't force therapists to think about clients' well-being any more than they did before, but they do force them to do everything possible to cover their butts, and then the way they practice becomes more about avoiding liability than about clients' well-being.
A therapist who has not crossed a formal ethical boundary will not receive punishment or re-education. And a T who has already decided to behave unethically (against known boundaries) probably doesn’t care about how their actions affect clients. My T’s first re-education included writing a letter about how her actions affected her client. The board accepted her letter, determined she had learned her lesson, and let her keep her license. This (unbeknownst to me at the time) happened shortly before I started therapy with her. Clearly, it had zero effect. The only possible way of training therapists who HAVE a moral compass is to incorporate better training in graduate school, publish peer reviewed essays on how therapist boundary crossings affect clients (and make them required reading), reframe governing boards so they are about client protection not therapist protection, and make this part of public knowledge. That would be great— but it’s pretty unlikely. At least in the near future.
  #45  
Old Feb 14, 2019, 01:59 PM
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I'm scattershooting here, but I think one reason therapists cross lines is the same reason some people break rules, do drugs and speed in their cars. They're the exception. They can handle it. Yeah, there is that ethics stuff, but it doesn't apply to my situation. I can handle these opioids.

I've known outright thieves, and they're fairly charming people. They're great at justifying and compartmentalizing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've seen some therapists practice over the years who start to create their own worlds, methodology and rules. One of my ex's, the more sensible one, regularly uses NLP visualization, and later energy work, healing people with magnets and balancing brain hemispheres. Then my bully therapist posted a short essay how optimal pain is necessary for growth. Apparently when the client wasn't in sufficient pain, he supplied it.

They build their universes, certain they're doing great things. But they've forgotten the most important part--the recipients of their brilliant techniques. When a client complains the therapists ignore it because they aren't able to dismantle their cloud-castle constructions. And they see themselves as "authorities," with the clients their disciples who don't realize what's best for them.

It's difficult to penetrate these stubborn realities.
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  #46  
Old Feb 14, 2019, 02:47 PM
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I agree with these last two posts. People who abuse often would be the first to condemn someone else for the very same behaviors; they literally do not "see" their own behaviors the same way. They have deluded themselves into thinking they are different somehow. I don't think that's just a "therapist" thing; I think that's a pretty common abuser thing.

My abuser, when confronted head-on with his own crimes against me, said he had never thought of what he did as abusive. I vividly remember him saying that the very day before he was confronted, he was talking about another individual who had sexually abused a child and was condemning their behavior, never even considering that he was guilty of the same. It simply didn't cross his mind.
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  #47  
Old Feb 14, 2019, 07:22 PM
Topiarysurvivor Topiarysurvivor is offline
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Some things I would like to know - how many survivors of any type of exploitation have gone on to have therapy they saw as useful. I'd like to read more first person narratives by the therapists. I want to know if the period I had of relative strength for a year, then a complete crash based on a stressor is within the experience of other individuals. I'd like to see numbers on how many people filed complaints, how those complaints were settled, if people's lives were helped by filing complaints. I'd like to see more about the issues specific to GLBT ( forgive me, not meaning to leave anyone out) and therapy abuse. I'd like to know how many people were exploited in sessions vs in outside life.

I could go on and on.
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  #48  
Old Feb 14, 2019, 07:39 PM
missbella missbella is offline
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Originally Posted by Topiarysurvivor View Post
Some things I would like to know - how many survivors of any type of exploitation have gone on to have therapy they saw as useful. I'd like to read more first person narratives by the therapists. I want to know if the period I had of relative strength for a year, then a complete crash based on a stressor is within the experience of other individuals. I'd like to see numbers on how many people filed complaints, how those complaints were settled, if people's lives were helped by filing complaints. I'd like to see more about the issues specific to GLBT ( forgive me, not meaning to leave anyone out) and therapy abuse. I'd like to know how many people were exploited in sessions vs in outside life.

I could go on and on.

Topiary~
Though my experience is outside your perimeters, I'm happy to answer your questions:
. My exploitation was bullying by two co-therapists, a male psychologist and a female psychiatric social worker leading group therapy. They became very hostile when I wanted to leave the group and humiliated me in attempt to keep me there. I don't think gender was a factor; sexuality was never discussed in this group.
. I felt extremely ashamed and guilty leaving therapy, as miserable as it made me. My first almost-immediate stop was to the therapist who referred me to the psychologist and who was hisf riend. She didn't really help me, but convinced me she did. Her emphasis seemed discouraging me from legal action. (Not a bad therapist, a bad match.)
. I made a large move to a new city and job, so put the matter away for several years.
. Eventually I went to a new therapist who mentioned I could file a complaint. That was the first "wound opening." I filed a "duty to refer" complaint and lost, but I was glad I did.
. Hearing about cults, Jonestown etc, ) reactivated my experience, leading to my blogging.
. I've gotten more from blogging, peer support and living than from therapy. Getting older helps.

.I'm still learning and understanding.
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  #49  
Old Feb 14, 2019, 07:56 PM
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Ididitmyway Ididitmyway is offline
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Originally Posted by Topiarysurvivor View Post
Some things I would like to know - how many survivors of any type of exploitation have gone on to have therapy they saw as useful. I'd like to read more first person narratives by the therapists. I want to know if the period I had of relative strength for a year, then a complete crash based on a stressor is within the experience of other individuals. I'd like to see numbers on how many people filed complaints, how those complaints were settled, if people's lives were helped by filing complaints. I'd like to see more about the issues specific to GLBT ( forgive me, not meaning to leave anyone out) and therapy abuse. I'd like to know how many people were exploited in sessions vs in outside life.

I could go on and on.
I was exploited in different ways by two therapists (and I had a decent one in between those).

The first experience of abuse with the first therapist was that of gasligting and the therapist's authoritarian style of relating when he is the one who establishes rules and they cannot be changed or discussed. The first 6 months of therapy were actually very helpful. I got a lot of insight on my relationships with others, on my own dynamics. It felt very empowering. I was able to be more assertive with people in a healthy way and to communicate with people more effectively. So, I do give the guy a credit for that. But then the transference and "the relationship" started getting "explored" and from that point on everything went downhill. My old wounds re-surfaced and caused traumatic reactions. He had no idea how to work with that except just reminding me that those are old wounds (thank you very much, that was very helpful).

The termination was nasty, ugly and traumatic for me. I was in a state of major clinical depression for another 6 months when I could barely get out of bed to take a shower and to do chores and not every day.

I didn't file a complaint because I knew it was pointless. Nothing could've been proven and, even if I could give evidence of what went on, the board would not have necessarily seen it as a violation and that'd have only added to the pain which was already more than I could handle.

The other time I was abused by the third and the last therapist I had. That time the formal violation did take place because, eventually, the relationship continued outside of therapy settings. Once again, I would never say that it was only a negative experience. I felt seen by that person like I had never been seen before by anyone and that meant a lot to me. But, that's exactly what makes exploitation so painful to process, it's because it is done by someone who provided you with something essential that you had craved your entire life.
Interestingly enough, the first 6 months of therapy, again, were the most helpful (the same happened with the second therapist who was ethical), so I wonder if there is something objectively valid about this first 6 months period that makes therapy in general more or less effective..just a thought..

Anyway, that story came to an end at some point. But that time I did file a complaint and he was disciplined. He didn't lose his license, but was put on probation for several years with the whole list of requirements he had to fulfill in order to retain his license.

I am satisfied with the results of the investigation and I can clearly state that I was helped a lot by the process of filing a complaint and by the final result.

I was not lucky with subsequent therapy. I've tried to process all this with other therapists, but none of them had any clue of what therapy abuse is and none of them knew how to work with it or had any desire to work with it, so I gave up on therapy all together.
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  #50  
Old Feb 14, 2019, 09:58 PM
Topiarysurvivor Topiarysurvivor is offline
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Thanks so much for this. I'm realizing how lucky I have been to have found 3 subsequent therapists who have been so supportive and who have really seemed to "get it".

You've had so many traumatic experiences with therapists I would find it surprising if you kept trying.
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