New therapist today - "hidden" kleenex behind curtain!

And another therapist didn't shake your hand. Then I guess you talked to her and got her to start shaking your hand at the end of sessions. Then she forgot one time and corrected herself and remembered to shake your hand, but then you were unhappy because you didn't like that she only did it because you asked her to.

It just all seems like not the real issue, but you make these little things into big issues almost as a way of rejecting each and every therapist at some point over relatively minor things. Why are these minor things so big to you? Because it hasn't mattered which therapist you were seeing; inevitably you become focused on some rather minor issue that you read great judgment into and that becomes the reason the therapist/therapy won't work.

I really don't intend to be scolding here and please don't read this that way. I just see this repeated pattern that constantly gets in your way, and since your options are so limited, finding out what it is all about so you can work past it is probably what is going to have to happen to be able to stick with a therapist.

It reminds me a bit of a student I have right now. He's really rather obsessive compulsive about entrances and exits. He literally cannot leave my room before every other student has left, and he absolutely must say "have a nice day" to me three times before he walks out. In fact, one day I sped out of the room before him because I needed to speak to another teacher quickly, and the teacher next door said he was just standing in my door like he was unable to leave the room. (This is a new thing by the way; I taught him last year and this wasn't a thing.) I sort of see something similar in your fixation on how a therapist greets you and says goodbye; this (and similar small judgments) has come up over and over in your posts over the years. You have some sense of THE way it needs to happen and have attached some meaning that it absolutely equates warmth and caring, almost to the exclusion of every other factor. Can you consider that perhaps there are much larger factors concerning warmth and caring than entrances and exits?

It just seems like until you figure out how to tolerate other people's individuality as not reflective of their caring for you, you are going to stay on this roller coaster, and I know you really feel the need for therapy and I hope you find a way to work with a therapist.

Thanks. Yes, there have been such situations with some of the counselors I´ve met with, but not all of them. I happen to think it´s important and something that comes natural to me to say something nice when meeting with someone and after a meeting has ended.

As these are small things per se and something that´s easily done like saying "hello, how was your trip here" or "see you next week" or similar, then not doing such things could be apprehended as non-caring. But, of course, not every such event is a sign of a person not caring.

Also, it´s the problems or issues in therapy that mostly get spoken about on this forum and by that I haven´t posted about how I liked a hug from a counselor or similar positive events.

This is no obsession, it´s just part of what I appreciate and find important in people. Good manners, like offering a nice greeting and some kind words, it´s nothing strange about that.

With a therapist it gets more important and single events grow larger than if I meet with an aquaintance but that´s because of the unique nature of a therapeutic relationship.

Even if not offering a handshake or forgetting to say something nice at the end of a meeting might be a person´s "normal way of acting" it will still be perceived as cold to me. That´s just how chemistry works, some people you spontaniously like and others you don´t.

If handshakes, kind words and similar didn´t mean anything or at all reflected how you feel about a person, such gestures had gone extinct.

Sarah,
this T is a psychoanalytical T, correct?

So the things you perceive as cold or uncaring (strict time management, no small talk, being (seemingly) unapproachable) are due to the fact that she is a psychoanalyst.

Since this is your only option for longterm therapy within the public healthcare system I think you owe it to yourself to put your best foot forward to at least try and make this work.

There's no point in finding faults right now, cause this is what's on offer. Not more and not less. You can get hung up on the fact that she is not up for a little bit of chitchat at the beginning or the end of the session. Or you could actually try and find out how capable this T really is. And even though this T might not have been your own choice (if there had been a choice), she can still be helpful for you in the long run.

Whether she will be helpful for you and your problems, that's mainly up to you. You can decide to really give it a go, or you can mourn the fact that she is not your ideal T. But ideal T might never come along... and your problems are real and you want things in your life to brighten up for you. So it's either waiting for ideal T, who might never materialize. Or going all in with this T, who might not be your first choice, but should be a good enough therapist to help you make changes in your life.

Sarah-
If your T is in fact psychoanalytic, the stuff you are writing about here is ideal therapy content to bring to sessions. Hope you give it a try.

[QUOTE=cinnamon_roll;6522782. . .
There's no point in finding faults right now, cause this is what's on offer. Not more and not less. . .[/QUOTE]

I so much agree with this. It may be disappointing to be with this therapist, but the reality is that it is what it is. At least she's not seeming at this point to promise things she can't deliver on, like the last therapist. You may have wanted more, but that's a different thing.

I defend the therapist here because it seems the most sensible thing to do. I mean, the idea someone would purposely hide a box of tissue? Ridiculous.

My question is reverse; why must we always assume the client is in the right. Don't think for an instant this is always the case.

The original poster said herself she had apprehension about attending the session in advance of it. Subconsciously then, they would have been looking for negative aspects of the session that would support their conclusion. This is really unfortunate. But I am certain the therapist holds no blame here. Use common sense please.

The client’s feelings are the client’s feelings, and therefore are never wrong. If the client doesn’t like the therapist, who are we to say she should? Or that she has no right? Or play armchair therapist and pathologize it? I think it’s totally reasonable to be put off by someone who is cold and doesn’t make an effort to make the other person comfortable - not that my opinion really matters in Sarah’s personal assessment.

I don’t think anyone was questioning the therapist as a professional or human being. But I think it’s insane to blame the OP for her first impression of the therapist - as if it’s some kind of short coming.

I didn’t like quite a few therapists I interviewed over the years. I might not have picked up on tissue placement issues, but I wouldn’t have thought to blame myself and actually start therapy with one of them. It’s a really personal, subjective choice. Shame for Sarah that she doesn’t have that choice.

I would consider this a projection like that of anyone else responding to this theead.

Maybe the therapist does ridiculous things. Or maybe the Kleenex reminds her of the funeral or death of a loved one, or she has OCD and the Kleenex leads to intrusive thoughts of clients' snotty noses. My guess is as good as anyone's.

I wouldn't hesitate to simply ask the therapist.

I agree with this too.

How horribly disappointing, but not much choice. Best to make lemonade out of lemons.

I see positives here too, like less likelihood of encountering the pitfalls of the prior therapist.

I have read where therapists claim to do just that. I have represented clients whose therapists did crap like hide the kleenex. I have no opinion on the therapist the OP was talking about - I would just ask them. But in my experience, therapists are not above doing things like hiding kleenex. Therapists are not always correct, above board good guys. Don't think for an instant that they are.
My common sense is just fine.

I think most people understand, especially if they are educated and/or have some life behind them, that their experience of other people, including their interpretations of what others do and say, and why they do them, can be very much wrong. Related to that is that some people always see the worst in people, rather than best, or otherwise do not give people the benefit of the doubt, and skew others with negativity rather than anything else. Usually I see the impact of this in their negative relationships with others, including one therapist after another. As another poster said, those of us who have been around this board for awhile have seen the OP do this same routine on other people.

I believe it makes sense for people to double check their perceptions about *others* (as to what people know about themselves, this doesn't apply), to examine whether their interpretations or beliefs about others (again, not what they know about themselves, which is all you can really know) are actually what they think. This is not to doubt the person's "experience" but to look honestly at how we look at other people. It has nothing to do with defending a therapist or anybody else, and IMO this kind of negative valencing of other people's behavior does nothing more than promote loneliness. If you are constantly interpreting what other people say and do in a negative way, it's going to be difficult for you to have any kind of relationship, including a therapeutic one. And the OP has great difficulty with social relationships in many different domains, including past blowups with previous therapists. I don't think anyone is doing her a favor to encourage her to think the tiniest of behaviors in a first therapy session is an accurate or reasonable way to approach a new opportunity to get some help and support. You can feel free to criticize me all you want, because I honestly do not feel hurt about it. But I just don't agree that people's "experience", which is really an inaccurate way of saying the way people interpret other people's behaviors or form beliefs about others' motivations and values and intentions, shouldn't ever be questioned. Feel free not to question it if that's your thing. But I will decline to agree with you or believe that I am doing something wrong by suggesting that the links between where the kleenex box goes and the therapist's ability to be warm and connected (or makes a negative statement about crying) in a session is tenuous at best and illogical at worst.

Some people never check out their perceptions about other people with those actual people. When my kid was in second grade, his teacher sent him to the school social worker because he refused to put down his book after reading time was over. The teacher thought he had a psychological problem. The social worker asked why he wouldn't put down his book and the kid said it was because he didn't have a bookmark and he didn't want to lose his place. The social worker gave him a bookmark and the problem was solved.

If I have a problem with something my therapist says or does, I ask, "why did you say X or why did you ask that question?" The answer is almost always different than I thought. I have also said I thought he was feeling ___ (angry, one time) and he's said no, it was ___. If you never check out your ideas about what others are doing and saying and why, you're left in some kind of lala land where you think you're some kind of social star. Every person who's ever told me they are excellent at "reading people" was more clueless than most people I know.

Misunderstandings are so easy to have happen, communication can be very complicated, people do all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons and say things that one person thinks means one thing but it really means another to them. I think the world would be a better place if more people would ask people about why they put the kleenex there rather than make snap judgments about its meaning. Therapy is a great place to practice this without driving your friends and loved ones crazy. Although I have found most people appreciate when I ask questions so I'm sure I understand what they mean, maybe this makes them feel heard. And when I've been on the other side of people making judgements about what I've said or done based on something very small and a wild or over-interpretation, that feels pretty painful.

But I have no dog in this fight. I know what works for me. Dropping my defenses and excessive negativity around what I think about other people has had benefits in my life. I'm a convert from the skepticism of and a boogey man around every corner approach to therapy and life.

Anne.

In a way, the kleenex box can be thought of as a marshmallow test: how the client deals with it may say a lot about the client. OR the therapist.

Thats why i said it's good stuff for therapy. If this was brought up as free association as the thoughts arise, there may be aha type insights.

But people are telling Sarah the opposite, to not go on about it. I think you can learn alot about yourself--especially patterns-- by examining such thoughts in therapy.

When I've worried about what my Ts intentions were, it was extreme fear. One of my biggest traumas was related to someone who purposely deceived me and played mind games with me, so it made total sense that I would be fearful with someone who I was vulnerable with. It was all transference in my case, and since it was previously dissociated, I would have never known had it not been for the therapy. My Ts way of working drew out everything from the corners of my mind!

Again, I hope you try it Sarah. Wouldn't this be a new way for you as this T works differently?

It's interesting that people are so irked by OP's venting, and feel the need to "correct" her perceptions. Cant imagine presuming such a thing.

In my experience therapists are manipulators and weirdos and control freaks, and I would put nothing past them.

Some of the ones I saw positioned a clock on a wall or table such that only they could see it. One stated I should not look at the time, as that was her job.

I found there were endless degradations and anomalies.

I would not give a therapist benefit of the doubt on any level. They need to demonstrate sanity and basic competence. Details matter when trying to assess such things.

This article was hilarious! What a talented writer.

I also read what happened to the author--it was so tragic and difficult to read.

I have a softer view of therapy, but agree with not jumping to conclusions about people and their patterns/responses based off of historic internet venting. I hold even less stock in using the therapy relationship as any indicator into how a person behaves in real life or what their core problems are. It might be reliable, or might indicate a terrible therapist (or multiple terrible therapists).

I don’t blame Sarah at all for wanting to ensure she’s getting the best person for where she’s at. I think many of the pro-therapist repliers are fortunate to have good therapy/therapists. And agree with those who say that this is excellent therapy material - for the RIGHT therapist. From seeing the other side, I know how emotionally devastating it can be seeing the wrong person. This is the time to be picky! Often in the beginning, all we have are small things to go off of.

But when people say something is good therapy material, isn't that implying the person cannot figure it out on their own? I would find this at least vaguely insulting.

If someone finds odd placement of kleenex bothersome, do they really need to pay someone to help them figure out what it means?

Therapy is supposed to be about healthy boundaries, but much of what i've seen and experienced has been super invasive.

Perhaps!

Though it beats having dozens of internet strangers help the OP figure it out!

Or maybe it doesn’t, because this is free 😳

I don't know, there are plenty of things I apparently can't figure out by myself. I just spin my wheels and the smell of burned rubber begins to pervade my life.

My psychiatrist keeps his tissue at the edge of his desk. When I first started seeing him, I never noticed them. I started to cry quietly as he and I were talking one day. He handed me a tissue. I was stunned. First because he noticed I was crying, it was so subtle, and second because he made such a thoughtful gesture to comfort me. It's funny what tissues can teach you in your therapist's or psychiatrist's office.

I apparently needed several (though less than a dozen) strangers on the internet to help me figure out -- to suggest an alternative point of view -- that therapy wasn't, and hadn't been, good for me in lots of ways.

I did need, and have needed, other people in my life. Other "safe" people, or a sense that it was safe to read or listen to their views and decide for myself. Therapists, and I saw a lot, did not convey that to me.

Nevertheless, given what is available to you, Sarah, I wonder, if you can find a way to work with the therapist to get some new ideas which could help you get to a place where life is meaningful for you? Given your experience with past therapists, keeping her at "arm's length", or further, seems reasonable. And yet -- it does seem that you want closeness with someone, or some ones, given how much the loss of your last therapist hurt you?

Maybe this therapist can't provide the warmth and closeness that you want -- starting, then, from a place of disappointment, is there anything that you can think of that you might gain from being with her? Perhaps just the experience of being with another human being, given that you don't have a lot of them/us in your life right now?

I tried a bunch of therapists after the horrible experience with my last longish-term T (6 years). It ended up just confirming that they were (all) terrible for me. Their attitudes were "helping" rather than respecting, which is what I guess I needed, though I didn't know that. I had this forum, and a real life support group, and eventually have given up completely on them.

But I've said often enough on this forum how many years I did try, and "believe in" therapy -- felt it was the right thing to do, felt I had no other real choice. If I were in your shoes, I think I would continue to try it again because -- well, it is an opportunity to be with another human being and if nothing else to decide for yourself what you don't like -- and maybe even some things you do like -- about her. So it seems to me that could expand your experience base. Maybe that's not what psychoanalysis is normally about -- but it's your therapy and it seems to me you can use it for whatever and however you want, within the boundaries of the therapy session.

I have a family member who has had a million therapists and life coaches, and who treats everyone he meets as a potential therapist (literally). The more he asks for advice and input, the more helpless he becomes. And there is no shortage of people eager to give their pretentious sermons about what he should do with his life or what things mean. Dysfunction on both sides. This constant therapizing is considered some sort of path to autonomy, but it has made him a cripple. Seems common. And I doubt many people are urging him to trust his own insight, because the culture operates on the therapy model.

This post made me pay attention to where my T has Kleenex in her office. I haven't noticed because I don't really cry in therapy. Occasionally I get teary eyed but that's about it. There's one Kleenex box by each one of the chairs. Hmm. Good to know.