Couch 203: The Spam and Cool Whip Couch!

It might be helpful to see the email for context but i would not like that.

LT-need more context...was he telling you that it’s okay to feel ashamed (as in validation) or did he tell you outright to feel ashamed about whatever you emailed about?

That would depend on what it was you were feeling ashamed about.

And there is a difference between feeling shame because, say, you made a mistake vs. self-loathing. Shame can be a useful learning tool in the former case. One’s about behavior and one’s about identity.

Of course, a therapist should make that clear.

That does it! @@ needs to quit being a professor and become a therapist.

It seems to me you took responsibility for what happened. You had a plan, then the weather happened and altered your plans. But you still behaved responsibly. Unless you made a scene and went viral... (checking youtube)

Nah my answer is better

And then some client would find this place and start posting my wardrobe choices on the Couch. No thanks.

The profession will just have to muddle along without me.

People can understand my answers.

The Therapist's New Clothes

Well okay if you wanna get all nit-picky about it!

Im catching up on the couch from yesterday. I’m getting around to the poop talk. My pipes are clean. Had lots of fiber. Sorry I didn’t take pictures.

Only una wants pctures.

LT, if you want feedback about Dr. T, maybe put it on your thread or PM sympathetic ears? I’m around.

Ts believe that you should experience the full range of emotions. So shame is sometimes appropriate. However, a T certainly shouldn't tell you how to feel or when.

Is this a case of validating your feelings ("I can see you feel ashamed about that.") or endorsing your feelings ("You are right to feel ashamed about that").

I approve of validating but endorsing is dangerous, to say the least.

But suppose T says, "I can understand why you feel like that." It might be given as validation but received as endorsement.

P.S. I think there may be a difference between shame and self-loathing. If T can teach you to accept shame without turning it into self-loathing, they will count that as a win.

I don't understand how this relates to shame or self-loathing.

Well, when you apply for parole in prison, after you are found GUILTY, they wont give you parole unless you accept responsibility for what you were guilty of.

Gee do i have to explain everything around here?

Shame and guilt are related. But if you take responsibility for whatever action, no need for shame or guilt or self-loathing?

Eta - t cant forgive her or make her feel better. And besides, she took responsibility.

You can feel ashamed of an action without hating yourself. Doing something 'bad' does not make you a bad person. Shame in an action doesnt mean you have to fall apart in a shame spiral of self loathing

I mean that's the theory, I've never been there. Hugs LT

Hello, couch brethren. Positive vibes all around.

I've been back to work since Monday, so though I've been reading some here, I haven't posted. Missed poop talk, apparently. Which is sad. I oddly enjoy a good poop discussion.

Tonight I was over at a friend's house, and somehow we ended up discussing childhood trauma. I disclosed part of my history with her, and now I feel pretty awful. Which isn't great because I'm home alone for the foreseeable future. I should just go to bed, but tiny me is feeling pretty miserable right now.

I thought you liked her.
Become a therapist? What a horrible curse.

My T replied to my email reply and now I'm debating terminating....the thing is, I know that much of this is likely transference and countertransference. Still, it feels like he's being kind of an a**hole to me, but I guess I'm being one to him as well? But....I'm hoping (partly due to my email reply) that he'll realize it's transference. And not really about him. But I still wonder if I need to leave. How do you figure out if it's a case of not wanting to face harsh truths about yourself? Versus a T who lets his own feelings get in the way too much? Like, he literally put in his reply to me: "But please don't threaten to leave. Leave, or don't leave." How do I take that? That's countertransference, right?

I don't see how that would be countertransference.

Me neither. I think hes simply saying, dont play the crying game like last time. Take responsibility.

To LT: Just thoughts here: if you have blurred boundaries and no one speaks up, then what? My mother thought i could tell from her dirty look. Could tell what?!

I hear that! Youre funny!

Maybe you can post the exchanges? It’s hard to tell from one or two sentences if he is being fair or not

Why would it be countertransference? It sounds like someone maintaining boundaries to me.

Do you want him to have countertransference towards you? Will that improve things? My impression of him is that by and large he does not let his feelings get in the way—and that that bothers you, because it means he’s not MC.

I think we all need to face harsh truths about ourselves. For some people therapy becomes a barrier to that (you know, “I’ve done the work, therefore there are no harsh truths to face”), for others it can be an aid with the right therapist. Which do you want it to be, and which kind of therapist is yours, the enabler or the one who shows you your true reflection and helps you deal with the reaction?

Me (earlier today, after extra session):


Can you remind me that you have faith that I can get through this? That as strong as addiction can be, I can be stronger? Not on my own, but with your help--and maybe with AA and/or naltrexone, too. Please give me some hope...

You did help today, and I really appreciate that--I could feel the caring emanating from you. But now I'm sitting here at home alone with my thoughts...and they aren't good ones. So...help?"

T: "You are asking me to give you hope. I would much prefer you to find it from believing in yourself, and turning to your friends and family who know you well. Talk to them about what you are feeling and get their support. Overcoming addiction is very challenging, and if you really want to put your effort and heart into it than I'm quite certain you can be successful. The things you mentioned can get you there, particularly AA - it will take more than just our work together if you want to be sober. As far as 'getting through this' I'm assuming you mean feelings of shame you have about yesterday evening? In truth, I think it will bother you for quite some time, but that's healthy and appropriate. When people do something that they regret, those feelings are supposed to inspire self-change. Harming or hating yourself is too much, and those feelings will fade soon, I believe. But feeling embarrassed and even ashamed is, in my opinion, a normal reaction. It is my very sincere hope that you will turn those feelings into motivation to make some positive and healthy changes to your drinking.
I'm glad you felt cared for in todays session. I do want you feel well, and to have faith in yourself. You'll get through this."

Me: "Thanks for the reply, but I think it actually made me feel worse...I just wanted you to give me hope, to say you believed in me. I know I should be looking for it from other people (and I did talk to H about it for a while tonight, which was good and helpful), but I'm asking for it from you. Maybe it's that you don't actually believe in me?

And it seems you think I should feel ashamed about last night. Which is just reinforcing my horrible thoughts about myself. I want you to help me stop hating myself. But today I felt your judgment about my drinking in everything you said, your body language, everything. It just confirmed my belief that I'm a total f***up.

Please give me hope. I'm not asking you to tell me to find hope inside myself or whatever. I want *you* to believe in me, and to tell me that you do. (If you don't think you can, then I need to find someone who will.)

(yes, I know you likely need to charge me for this, it's OK, I took extra work to pay for today's session and got much more work than I'd expected to, so I'm fine financially.)



"LT,
It's not up to me to get you to stop hating yourself - it's up to you to do that. I'm very sorry that you're feeling worse, that is certainly not what I would hoped to have happened. What I think you understand but are unwilling to accept is that you are asking me for many things that are not mine to give to you. Give you hope? Make you stop hating yourself? How are those things my responsibility, and is it appropriate to ask that of someone else? And if you were to get those things from me, why would you need to learn how to get them from yourself or others in your life? I feel like you'd be setting yourself up to get that comfort from me, or another therapist, forever.

I would like you to have hope, and I believe that everyone has the ability to improve, grow, change and do well. You have that ability. But it comes from you, not from me. You need to believe it is possible, and then you need to take it upon yourself to do those things that can make it happen. You came in today and it was you that told me that you were feeling ashamed, and that you think that you're 'totally ****ed up'. I never said those things, and if you want to impose them onto me, than you can do so, but you're putting words into my mouth that I never said.

What I wrote is that it is normal, and I believe healthy, to have feelings of embarrassment about behavior that we regret and would like to change. They are emotions that happen when a person feels he/she has done something 'wrong'. Those are the emotions that can motivate people to take action and do something different. They can inspire change. You have very clearly stated to me that you think your drinking is a problem, and I agree with you. I think that last evening could be the type of situation that makes a difference and moves you towards that goal.

I feel as though you are pushing your feelings about yourself onto me, and I do not think that doing so is fair. To my knowledge I've never expressed anything other than belief that you are able to make progress and do well. I'm sorry that you feel terrible, and hating yourself or wanting to die is too much to be putting on yourself for a mistake, and that's what last evening was, a mistake. You didn't do anything deliberately wrong, and nobody got hurt. But feeling embarrassed and not wanting to have something like that happen again is an appropriate reaction, and I hope you can see that, and learn from it.

I really can't think of another way to say this, so I'll be honest and direct. I do not appreciate your comment of 'I need to find someone who will'. It's not the first time you have made a comment of this kind, and I interpret it as a threat and manipulative. If you want to find someone else to work with, that is your right to do so and I support you. If you want to keep working with me, I support that as well and hopefully by now you realize that I will give my best effort to your counseling. But please do not threated to leave. Leave, or don't leave.

I appreciate your understanding about the finances regarding the time taken to email. Thank you. Hopefully you will feel stronger and more optimistic in the morning."

It’s blunt, and I see why it would be hard to read. But it’s honest, he’s right about quite a bit (like the things you ask for are largely on you) and I hope thought-provoking for you.

And there’s a really good question in there: what do you want from a therapist? Do you want the tools to change your life and improve it, or do you want a professional hand-holder for the rest of your life?

He can’t be MC, and he won’t be MC. And even MC wasn’t very MC-ish at the end.