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Old Mar 04, 2020, 09:14 AM
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How do you feel when your T tries to normalize something? As an example, say you talked about feeling really sad and depressed. And your T said, "Well, everyone feels really sad sometimes." Or you talked about your fear of flying, and they said, "Lots of people are really afraid to fly--it's a very common fear."

How would that make you feel? Would you feel comforted because what you're feeling is a common experience? Or would you feel in some ways that your T is minimizing your struggle? Or something else?

My T has used normalizing sort of comments with me lately (not on those specific topics), including in a reply today, and I can't really decide how I feel about it... So just curious as to how others feel.
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Old Mar 04, 2020, 09:44 AM
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1st T used a lot of those with me! At best I found them to be unhelpful, several undermined our ability to work together and some were outright harmful. I guess they have their place with some clients but I didn’t find them helpful. Current T has not used them with me and they would be pretty inconsistent with his core beliefs. I think if he did choose to normalize something he would be very cautious and very sure it really was the same thing.
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Old Mar 04, 2020, 09:49 AM
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I think what matters most is how you feel about it. My T has done this a few times but since I started pre empting her sh stopped. So in the fea of flying examply I would say "I'm just so scared to fly, I KNOW lots of people are but that doesn't help me with how I feel" It doesn't. I have a chronic illness so people say all manner of things that are meant to comfort me "at least it isn't worse" ' this person has same illness and they are ok" Thanks I am reassured now. They mean well generally but should think before they speak. I expect a T being paid for that time to be better than the general population but it isn't the case.

I do see how normalizing may help someone, to know they are not alone, but I find it a bit dismissive. OH that is the other thing T says " do you think other people are scared of flying??" To which I always reply yes, probably, but they have their own therapists to help them. A gentle reminder that she is meant to be helping me.

I tend to no longer get hung up on the individual stupid things she says. I just let her know what is helpful and what is not.
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Old Mar 04, 2020, 10:13 AM
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It depends on what is going on. He was pretty careful about when he chose to do so.

One particularly, truly helpful instance when he normalized what I was feeling was after my sister's death. I was distraught and the depth of my sadness frightened me because I had spent so many years so terribly depressed -- depressed to the point of suicide and hospitalization -- that it scared me; I was concerned I was going to, once again, spiral into that horrible depressed state. He reminded me that what I was going through was grief, not depression -- that the depths of my anguish were completely normal under the circumstances and that it was okay to grieve like I was grieving. It was extremely comforting for me to hear that I was "normal" in my grief. It relieved that fear of the grief and allowed it to just be.

Another time was when my husband was in the ICU and very close to death. The stress I was under was enormous, and he reminded me that anyone in that kind of a medical crisis with a loved one would be feeling the stress, the uncertainty, the anxiety I was feeling. It was reassuring to me to hear how I was responding was "normal" and that I was actually handling it all quite well under the circumstances.

Sometimes, those of us whose reactions have always felt out of control and extreme really get positive reassurance from hearing that, for once, we are actually responding typically/normally for the circumstances.
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Old Mar 04, 2020, 10:14 AM
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I hate it. I think it undermines my experiences. My first t once said that everyone has s thoughts at some time or other which was incredibly hurtful because I was seriously thinking about it at the time.

Even my current t who is incredibly sensitive recently said that other people feel the same way I do about something. I really didn't want to hear that, I don't find it helpful and in fact it reinforced the very pain that I was talking about.

For some reason many therapists seem to think it helps to normalise an issue and I suppose I can see why it could do that in some instances but for me it hurts.
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Old Mar 04, 2020, 10:34 AM
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I think I’d feel a bit bothered by the responses to the examples you gave. I can also understand your T’s response, but agree that it kind of minimizes your experience. My T’s standard response is “of course you feel that way. It makes sense based on your history.” This often leaves me feeling perplexed because I don’t always understand how it makes sense based on my history. In any case, can you tell your T how you feel about his responses?
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  #7  
Old Mar 04, 2020, 10:34 AM
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I was going to say that I find this kind of thing irritating and invalidating, but I like Artley's response too. There have been times when I have expressed feeling like my reaction to something was weird, unwarranted, or stupid, and then it has been helpful for my T to say that it is normal or expected. When I first started seeing her during a particularly stressful life stage (finishing my dissertation and a parent dying, among other things), she would sometimes list all the things that I was going through and express that it was a lot. I was so overwhelmed that I sometimes lost sight of this, so it was helpful.

So maybe I like normalization when it combats my tendency to invalidate my own feelings.

For something that the average person knows exists (like depression or a phobia so common that is has a name), I would be annoyed by the attempt at normalization. It would feel like minimizing or maybe just straight-up condescension. I was upset about parenting/marriage stresses the other day, and my T said, "It's so normal to feel that way," and my immediate responses was a soft but slightly petulant "I know...." And then we proceeded to talk about what it was like for me and how I might change what I am doing to help make things easier to manage. So maybe it would be helpful to know that I'm not doing something wrong because it is normal to be stressed about parenting a small child, but I hadn't been thinking that my stresses were anything unusual or extreme.

Also, being sad and having depression are very different, so I hope a T wouldn't say something so dumb. It's hard enough to respond kindly to those comments from everyday people, much less a mental health professional. (I know this isn't what Dr. T said, but I am saying in general that a normalizing comment like that has the potential to make the client suspect the therapist is a clod.)

ETA: Lrad's comment reminded me that both of my therapists do the "it makes sense that you feel that way based on your history" and then explain what they mean if I give them a quizzical look. Sometimes I have a bigger reaction than might be expected because it re-activates a trauma thing (I am thinking about your reaction to P when she said something that likely reminded you of your mom). It helps me to make sense of that. Now when somebody upsets me off beyond what seems proportional to the situation, I ask myself if I was being reminded of my childhood, and the answer is nearly always yes. So again, the comment being tailored to me and where I'm at is crucial here.
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  #8  
Old Mar 04, 2020, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonelyinmyheart View Post
I hate it. I think it undermines my experiences. My first t once said that everyone has s thoughts at some time or other which was incredibly hurtful because I was seriously thinking about it at the time.

Even my current t who is incredibly sensitive recently said that other people feel the same way I do about something. I really didn't want to hear that, I don't find it helpful and in fact it reinforced the very pain that I was talking about.

For some reason many therapists seem to think it helps to normalise an issue and I suppose I can see why it could do that in some instances but for me it hurts.

My T said that first example you gave at one point, too, how "everyone has a fleeting thought at some point." Which, first, I doubt is the case, but I had also been really disturbed by the intensity and specificity of my fleeting thought at the time
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. And so I wanted him to understand that merely having the feeling sucked and scared me.
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Old Mar 04, 2020, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by JaneTennison1 View Post
I think what matters most is how you feel about it. My T has done this a few times but since I started pre empting her sh stopped. So in the fea of flying examply I would say "I'm just so scared to fly, I KNOW lots of people are but that doesn't help me with how I feel" It doesn't. I have a chronic illness so people say all manner of things that are meant to comfort me "at least it isn't worse" ' this person has same illness and they are ok" Thanks I am reassured now. They mean well generally but should think before they speak. I expect a T being paid for that time to be better than the general population but it isn't the case.

I do see how normalizing may help someone, to know they are not alone, but I find it a bit dismissive. OH that is the other thing T says " do you think other people are scared of flying??" To which I always reply yes, probably, but they have their own therapists to help them. A gentle reminder that she is meant to be helping me.

I tend to no longer get hung up on the individual stupid things she says. I just let her know what is helpful and what is not.

Thanks for your reply. I have told Dr. T a couple times in the past that his normalizing was helpful to me and/or that I appreciate his validation in certain areas (which is a different thing, I guess). And I've said how pathologizing bothers me, like when ex-T told me my transference (for ex-MC) was "as intense as it gets" and some comments she made about my OCD. And some things Dr. T has said, particularly earlier on in the relationship, about how I think about therapy more than any of his other clients (at the time, I said maybe I'm just the only one who tells him about it...), things like that.

So I don't want to be pathologized either. I guess normalization is the opposite of that. I suppose what I truly want most of the time is validation, like, "I hear you, and I understand that it's difficult for you." And Dr. T has gotten pretty good at that. I do understand in the most recent case why he was trying to normalize, because I felt a lot of guilt over a feeling I had (something related to my D). I think I just don't really know what I want sometimes.
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Old Mar 04, 2020, 11:02 AM
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Im not sure I find it overly helpful. My T will say something along the lines of "it's very common what you're saying" or try and reassure me that so many other people feel the same way. And on one hand I think "Ok, well, that's good" and on the other hand I think "then wtf is wrong with me that I'm making a big deal out of it?". And then I feel like I shouldn't let whatever be an issue since it affects so many others and they don't make an issue out of it 🤷
Hopefully that made some sense lol
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Old Mar 04, 2020, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by ArtleyWilkins View Post
It depends on what is going on. He was pretty careful about when he chose to do so.

One particularly, truly helpful instance when he normalized what I was feeling was after my sister's death. I was distraught and the depth of my sadness frightened me because I had spent so many years so terribly depressed -- depressed to the point of suicide and hospitalization -- that it scared me; I was concerned I was going to, once again, spiral into that horrible depressed state. He reminded me that what I was going through was grief, not depression -- that the depths of my anguish were completely normal under the circumstances and that it was okay to grieve like I was grieving. It was extremely comforting for me to hear that I was "normal" in my grief. It relieved that fear of the grief and allowed it to just be.

Another time was when my husband was in the ICU and very close to death. The stress I was under was enormous, and he reminded me that anyone in that kind of a medical crisis with a loved one would be feeling the stress, the uncertainty, the anxiety I was feeling. It was reassuring to me to hear how I was responding was "normal" and that I was actually handling it all quite well under the circumstances.

Sometimes, those of us whose reactions have always felt out of control and extreme really get positive reassurance from hearing that, for once, we are actually responding typically/normally for the circumstances.

Thanks for your reply. The times I've been helped by normalizing are similar types of scenarios. Like when something in particular was going on with my D about 6 months ago, he said most any parent would struggle with that. Even saying he wouldn't know how to handle it with his son either. That was helpful because it made me feel like I wasn't overreacting and that I wasn't just a completely incompetent parent.

Similarly, when he's talked about the grieving process related to my leaving ex-MC. And my guilt over struggling more with that than with my beloved grandmother's passing (she'd been in decline for a long time, so he said I'd likely already grieved her).

ETA: Also his normalizing how difficult it can be to handle addiction. And to change habits in general (like exercising more, improving diet, etc.). That's all been helpful.
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Old Mar 04, 2020, 11:11 AM
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Hm, OK, in writing some replies, I think I've figured something out. If it's a case where I'm like, "Why am I struggling so much with this? What's wrong with me?" Then normalizing helps me. This would be things like grieving a loss, trying to change unhealthy habits, dealing with stressful parenting stuff (particularly with a special needs child).

But if it's a case where I'm really distressed by an emotion or thought I had, and he's basically like, "Eh, everyone feels that," then normalizing is painful for me. Because it feels my distress isn't being taken seriously enough. Like, "OK, sure, maybe lots of people deal with that, but hearing that feels dismissive. I want to talk about and have you acknowledge and validate why it's so painful for *me*."

Does that distinction make sense? I'm just trying to figure it out in my own head so that I can maybe talk about it a bit in session tomorrow.
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  #13  
Old Mar 04, 2020, 11:15 AM
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OK, attempt at a simplified example:

Normalization helpful to me: "I just got a paper cut and it really hurts. I feel like a wimp because it's such a tiny cut." T: "Paper cuts can be really painful. No one likes getting them, and they can really suck."

Normalization less helpful to me: "I just got a paper cut and it really hurts. I feel like a wimp because it's such a tiny cut." T: "Everyone gets paper cuts. It's happens all the time."

That's probably a bad example...


Will reply to others in a bit.
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Old Mar 04, 2020, 11:22 AM
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It really depends on the subject. There are some things that it really doesn't matter if it's "normal" or not because something is still a problem for me. The fact that other people have the same problem is irrelevant because my issues rarely have anything to do with feeling like I'm the only one with problems - so normalizing just doesn't add anything. It doesn't really bother me or make me feel like anything is being minimized, I just find it a pointless discussion point.
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Old Mar 04, 2020, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Siennasays View Post
Im not sure I find it overly helpful. My T will say something along the lines of "it's very common what you're saying" or try and reassure me that so many other people feel the same way. And on one hand I think "Ok, well, that's good" and on the other hand I think "then wtf is wrong with me that I'm making a big deal out of it?". And then I feel like I shouldn't let whatever be an issue since it affects so many others and they don't make an issue out of it 🤷
Hopefully that made some sense lol

This really resonated with me, thanks! I think that's part of what's going on for me, the sense of "If this is totally normal, why am I sitting here sobbing about it?" (The case last night, for example.)
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Old Mar 04, 2020, 11:38 AM
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Hm, OK, in writing some replies, I think I've figured something out. If it's a case where I'm like, "Why am I struggling so much with this? What's wrong with me?" Then normalizing helps me. This would be things like grieving a loss, trying to change unhealthy habits, dealing with stressful parenting stuff (particularly with a special needs child).

But if it's a case where I'm really distressed by an emotion or thought I had, and he's basically like, "Eh, everyone feels that," then normalizing is painful for me. Because it feels my distress isn't being taken seriously enough. Like, "OK, sure, maybe lots of people deal with that, but hearing that feels dismissive. I want to talk about and have you acknowledge and validate why it's so painful for *me*."

Does that distinction make sense? I'm just trying to figure it out in my own head so that I can maybe talk about it a bit in session tomorrow.
Maybe it's more about validating your emotional reaction? In the first situation, it's, "Yes, that situation is distressing, so I understand why you are struggling." In the second situation, it's more like, "Everybody does that, so why are you struggling?" instead of saying, "Yes, that thought is distressing, so I understand why you are struggling."

I think the DBT-ish response to an intrusive thought might be more like, "This thought is upsetting to me right now, and it's normal for people to have intrusive thoughts so there is nothing wrong with me."
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Old Mar 04, 2020, 12:20 PM
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I think there's a difference between normalising the issue, and normalising my difficulties dealing with it. The second can be incredibly helpful (like, normalising the difficulties of dealing with SA aftermath). The first annoys the hell out of me, and tends make me feel even less 'normal' (although it might be beneficial sometimes? a lot depends on context and wording, I think). Like, the OP example of fear of flying (let's say spiders, for me), if my problem is that I'm about to fly (eeek, there's a massive one under the bed!) and scared to ****, telling me that other people have this fear as well is unhelpful at best. If my focus is that I have this stupid irrational fear and hate myself for it, then it's very helpful to know that irrational it might be, but a lot of people have it for whatever reason.

The first kind of 'normalisation' can also send me into a spiral of self-loathing, I perceive something as a problem, and I'm looking for solution/support/validation, and instead I'm told that "well, everyone experiences that", that translates in my head to "dang, this shouldn't be a problem, everyone else can just deal with it so why can't I" which then makes me feel like a misfit, unacceptable, sub-human if I let myself get carried away. The second, helps to feel like it's normal for me to have this difficulty, I don't have to beat myself up for not having an easier time dealing with it, I'm not as far off from 'human' as I fear I might be.
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Old Mar 04, 2020, 12:57 PM
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I can't recall my therapist saying anything like this. She rarely provides any explicit reassurance and I suppose that includes normalising my feelings/experiences. I can imagine I might find it patronising or consider her lazy for making comparisons or sweeping statements about what "everyone" might feel.

You sound comforted by some of his normalisations. I guess the danger for you and your feelings is that he won't know what would be a helpful normalisation or not (especially since he doesn't sound like the naturally intuitive type). It's risky for you because he will probably get it wrong. That in itself might be a useful piece of work, of course.
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Old Mar 04, 2020, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricManatee View Post
Maybe it's more about validating your emotional reaction? In the first situation, it's, "Yes, that situation is distressing, so I understand why you are struggling." In the second situation, it's more like, "Everybody does that, so why are you struggling?" instead of saying, "Yes, that thought is distressing, so I understand why you are struggling."

I think the DBT-ish response to an intrusive thought might be more like, "This thought is upsetting to me right now, and it's normal for people to have intrusive thoughts so there is nothing wrong with me."

Yes, I think this is a big part of it, that I want my emotional reaction validated.
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Old Mar 04, 2020, 01:21 PM
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I can't recall my therapist saying anything like this. She rarely provides any explicit reassurance and I suppose that includes normalising my feelings/experiences. I can imagine I might find it patronising or consider her lazy for making comparisons or sweeping statements about what "everyone" might feel.

You sound comforted by some of his normalisations. I guess the danger for you and your feelings is that he won't know what would be a helpful normalisation or not (especially since he doesn't sound like the naturally intuitive type). It's risky for you because he will probably get it wrong. That in itself might be a useful piece of work, of course.

Good point that it could be useful in itself. And yeah, he doesn't seem the naturally intuitive type. He's gotten much better at understanding me, but because I give a considerable amount of feedback.
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Old Mar 04, 2020, 01:22 PM
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If anyone is curious to see the actual email exchange, let me know, and I can PM you. I just don't feel comfortable posting it publicly. (Warning that something both he and I said could be potentially triggering.)
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Old Mar 04, 2020, 01:37 PM
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I usually don't find normalizing helpful, particularly if I am in a distressed state. The only time I find it helpful is if it's something to do with my DX and whatever I am dealing with is common to that DX then it makes me feel like oh, okay, I'm not a freak, that's part of the illness or whatever. But for a clinician to tell me, oh lots of people feel that way, or something like that, it generally is unhelpful to me. Something Pastor T is doing, is basing his work with me on my strengths. So I'm supposed to be focused on what my strengths are. So an example of that is: yeah, I can see how those hallucinations would be disturbing (validation), I wouldn't like that either (validation). But you are bright and intelligent and you can find a way to deal with the hallucination when they come. What did you do in this case? What could you do differently next time so that you aren't scared? Well I could do x, y, z. Oh that's great. Let's build on that. Could you also do this, this, and that? If you do, I think you will find that those hallucinations aren't going to get the better of you. You have a lot going for you (validation). Now you have added some skills to your toolbox. (validation) Do you want to see how that works out next week? Etc.
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Old Mar 04, 2020, 08:12 PM
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I do feel a lot more reassured in general if I know other people are going through what I’m going through. Or have gone through it. My current therapist says it in a way where she’s not invalidating my feelings though. She still says I have a right to feel like this and she would too in that situation, and stuff like that.
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Old Mar 04, 2020, 09:26 PM
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I think I'd feel my therapist was dismissing my concerns. I 'd consider her minimalising my feelings. That she's putting me in a group. Not seeing me as an individual.
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Old Mar 04, 2020, 10:48 PM
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My T does it in response to me being uncomfortable with myself and calling myself a freak because of my stupid head. He always says you are perfectly normal for someone who has been through what you have been through. I always get mad and say I don't want to be normal for a freak. I want to be normal among the normal people.

He also tries to normalize my feelings by saying I can see why you would feel that way...blah blah blah. I think it is just psychobabble. I know many clients yearn for the caring, understanding and validatation they receive from their T and I am not saying that good T don't care. But in the end they just words that every T is trained to say. We are currently working on a DBT skill called DEAR MAN which is helping me learn to be more assertive and deal with difficult people to improve my life. Anyway, hexwas telling me about a technique called active listening where you either repeat back what the person said (not using exact words but in a validating way) or you agree with a negative comment in a shortened rwisted positive way.

My T said he was very uncomfortable and had a hard time of it in the beginning of his training but now it is second nature.

LT I know your T doesn't always say the words you want to hear but try to remember they are just words. While I am sure he does care, his job in the long run is to help you feel better in real life. His goal is to help you fond the caring you so desire out in the real world and be able to accept when people don't give you the response that you want. Or learn to use DEAR MAN to increase the chances of getting what you want.

I hope you are able to talk this out quickly and not dwell on it or try to change him to suit your wants. That always seem to end in a rupture for you. There really are some great skills in DBT that I think would benefit you plus if you join a class you are expected to text/email when you are struggling. It gives you that necessary support while you are learning skills at the same time to help you improve your life to the point that you no longer need the support. Win win. Just my suggestion.

Good luck to you tomorrow. Try to go in with an open mind and remember that he is human with the right to his own autonomy. You will still be ok if you don't get exactly what you want out of him. Sorry if any of that sounded harsh. It came from a place of caring and concern.
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My Support Forums is the online community that was originally begun as the Psych Central Forums in 2001. It now runs as an independent self-help support group community for mental health, personality, and psychological issues and is overseen by a group of dedicated, caring volunteers from around the world.

 

Helplines and Lifelines

The material on this site is for informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis or treatment provided by a qualified health care provider.

Always consult your doctor or mental health professional before trying anything you read here.