Couch 217: The Order of the Phoenix couch

Hugs, SH. I'm glad you talked to your mom and brother about it. When you say your mom wonders about talking to your T, do you mean that you haven't told your T about this? If so, you definitely need to tell him (or both of them, if you're still seeing two). Or do you mean your mom wanted to talk to him?

ETA: And I agree with NP that your H isn't going to stop....it seemed you were doing so much better when you were living separately. I know you may worry about separating your kids from their dad, but you need to look out for your well-being, too. I'm sure your kids wouldn't want you to be hurting. There is another way out besides what you mentioned.

Una, I understand what you're saying about empathy. And that can work for neurotypical kids. But kids on the spectrum tend to lack the same understanding of empathy, or at least experience it different. It's really more theory of mind than empathy, which is basically not understanding that other people might think/feel differently than you do. And also not reading social cues. Like my D tends to not realize if a kid doesn't want to play with her or doesn't want to play in the same way that she does. Or that they might not want her to touch their hair. So we have to explain that to her more often and for a longer stretch of time than a NT kid.


But anyway, back to some of what you and others were saying about putting empathy in and/or not explaining to her so much. Most of the time, I don't really explain or say that something upsets me. I use various ways of dealing with her saying something like, "I don't like you" to me. Often, I ignore it. Or I just say "OK." It's only on occasion that I'll say it upsets me (or that it might hurt Daddy's feelings if she said it to him, back when she preferred me). She can say "I don't like you" or "I hate you" to me, and I'll still love her. But she needs to learn that other people, say, kids in her class, may not react the same way.


And in terms of having empathy for her, I think I'm much more tolerant of her outbursts and meltdowns since we've been stuck home than H is. He's more likely to yell at her or send her to her room--and she's then like, "Are you mad at me?" or "Am I in trouble? I don't want to be in trouble" and then will often refuse to go to her room or wander out 10 seconds later, saying "I'm OK now!" (I've had to send her to her room a couple times when she was doing dangerous things and not listening.) I just keep thinking of how she's really struggling with being home, not having school, not going out to eat (H takes her to get carryout lunch a few days a week), not really getting to see her grandparents (except on Facetime). So I try to allow for her having more meltdowns. My saying things like "I know you hate being at home" or "I know you miss school" or "Yeah, I hate being stuck at home, too" is my trying to empathize and validate her feelings, which I tended not to get as a child.

OK, I'll stop rambling now...

Ahh, this makes a lot of sense now. I think the difference here is the tone and context. Saying "how would YOU like it if someone wanted YOUR toy?!" is just dripping with shame and disdain and would be an awful thing to say to a kid. But imagine the same phrasing with a gentle, curious tone, maybe while you're sitting next to the kid, and then a pause for them to think of a response, and then a short conversation about their answer. I think that would feel much different compared to the unfortunate way you were treated as a kid.

Kids are still learning about everything, and there is a lot of stuff to know about the world. Asking them to reflect on the thing they said (rather than getting angry and yelling back) kinda does show empathy, right?

LT, I have a kid on the spectrum who is now 24. I still get people telling me I need to make him "x,y,z" - they don't get that his behaviors are not NT and never will be. We just roll up our sleeves and do the best we can.

My psychiatrist was just telling me this week that we need to have him move out of our house and live on his own. I was dumbfounded as there is no way our son can live independently and he never will be able to. Those that aren't in the situation just do not get it.

Wow, Polibeth. None of my business, but that seems extraordinarily short sighted of your psych.

Yes, I certainly don't say it in that disdainful tone but use the gentle, curious one. Thanks for making the distinction.

Thanks, Polibeth. I wish more people understood the differences and challenges. I'm sure you're a great mom and advocate for your son.


I agree with Lost that it seems your psychiatrist should understand better. It's one reason that I particularly value Dr. T--that he gets it (whether it's because his son is on the spectrum or he's just very knowledgeable about it for professional or other reasons doesn't matter so much as that he seems to understand).

LT, I just wanted to add that I hope you don't think I'm criticizing your parenting. I just think it's a fascinating topic and something I obviously spend a lot of time thinking about these days. It must be tough to raise a non-NT kid and have to parse out what is normal kid stuff and what is related to being non-NT. You're parenting on hard mode!

Thanks for clarifying, but I didn't think you were being critical. And parenting any sort of kid is hard.

Mine is currently eating cheese that she dropped and then picked up off the floor, so yeah, I'm nailing it.

is it wrong to eat cheese that fell on the floor? If that is wrong, I don't want to be right

Depends on how clean your floor is and how iffy you are about maybe getting sick off of eating things being in a dirty place...

My parents believed that yes, you can eat things that fell on the floor (if they haven’t been there awhile). Medically speaking, they thought, modern conveniences have made us too clean and it’s weakened our immune systems.

I still eat things that fall on the floor.

I knew there was an upside to my benign neglect approach to house cleaning.

Not iffy at all unless it is something like a public toilet floor or dog kennel. On my own floor - I do sometimes have to rinse off the pet hair.

My younger dog sliced his paw pad open late last night in the back yard. I haven't been able to figure out what he cut it on. Waiting for vet to call to take him in to see if he needs stitches/antibiotic.

I watched the entire Dark Season 3 in two days after I saw it up and had forgotten it was coming out.

I was frustrated by episode 5 thinking nothing was going to change, but without giving spoilers I liked the ending. Told T to watch it too and he said he would. T also kept the fact that he can speak German too quiet.

I keep going on about starting over with French- I haven't touched it in three months but I have a two day streak on duolingo now. Don't think so much free time is good for me. I was watching the lego movie today and it was Snow white and the huntsman yesterday. Got so bored I went and printed out notes for my next exam and did one hour today studying with creepy guy.

I'm glad you've taught her the importance of cheese.

Isnt that a Dolly Parton song?

But she isn’t you. You’re not reparenting yourself. And she’s made it clear she really doesn’t want some of that empathy right now. She can know you love her without your doing things that currently upset her.

You and your husband seem to have different parenting roles. You’re the empathizer, he sets (and enforces) boundaries. Lots of couples with kids will have one parent be more disciplinarian than the other, yet both will combine discipline + empathy, but you two seem more extreme. So I’d imagine she might seek out the parent who fulfills her needs more at any given time. Right now, with the world in upheaval, that’s him, because she has a better sense of structure and continuity because he sets boundaries. When she needs empathy again, I bet she’ll turn back to you.

You say you set limits, but their results don’t come across in your posts. Like once she was kicking the car seat, you were asking her to stop, she didn’t, your husband stepped in to make clear it was serious and she should listen. She’s not allowed to hit you, but she does. She wouldn’t leave a room when you wanted to meet Dr. T in there, so you went down the basement.

I’m not saying any of this to be critical of you or your husband. Most parents I know do the best job they can with the tools they have. This is just how the situation seems to me through your posts.

The floors were much cleaner before this little creature moved in and started eating things off them. She helped empty and reload the dishwasher earlier which was adorable and hilariously time-consuming, but housekeeping standards in general have relaxed tremendously in the last year and a half. She does occasionally eat dirt outside, so all things considered, I'm not too worried about the floors.

I will usually eat anything that fell on the floor unless there is cat hair on it. I was raised in a different generation and I think that helped build our immune systems. We didn't have all the bottled water and hand sanitizer and dish washers back then. We drank out of garden hoses. We drank water out of our dirty hands. We survived and thrived.

raw cookie dough, rode in the back of trucks, and no seat belts.

All at the same time? That's impressive!

While screaming “get off my lawn!”

I played Jarts.