Long-term clients and maternity leaves

I have an issue. I know people here are offering support and advice because they care. They're invested in my story. But what does one do when the forums advice differs from your therapist's advice? I know both, the forums and L, mean well.

I guess I just have to do what's right for me, even if it turns out wrong. Someone is going to be disappointed in me.

I think this is why holding L back is important. AND I'm not ready to throw away a 5 year relationship. I'm just struggling.

Session today was another hard one. Lots of crying. Some silence, some raising voice (which I've never done with her before). I got an apology for something she said about my infertility back when she was pregnant. That was nice and needed, AND it doesn't help any of my current issues. But I think I was able to say everything clearly today. Of course, it's only the beginning. I wouldn't even believe her if she apologized for anything else, not saying she will or won't. I feel good about everything I said. I hope she's starting to understand the abandonment and hopes/desires part.

I know this is really hard, because I struggle with it, too--but try to let go of the fear of disappointing people, whether L or those on the forum. I agree that you need to do what seems right for you.

You can also hold L back some without throwing away the relationship. Maybe try to look at it is redefining the relationship so that it works better for you? You've realized that such frequent contact might cause issues in the longer term. So you can decide that you'll contact her less, for example, and see how that goes. It doesn't mean you're throwing away the relationship--just shifting it.

I've also had to shift some how much I listen to what people on here say. There can be some helpful insights.

At the same time, no one is sitting in your sessions with you and knows what exactly goes on. And everyone is also replying from their own viewpoints, colored by their therapy and life experiences. We are all trying to help. But what might be right for, say, me, might not be right for you, or might not be right for you right now. We're all in different places in our lives and in our therapy. And we have different experiences in our backgrounds. Just trying to support each other, but none of us are experts on you, L, or your relationship.

Thanks LT! That means a lot to me. It's just hard. But even L says to trust my wise-mind. I think this situation is more difficult than normal is because it's directly with L AND I truly don't know how to navigate this. I am so torn apart. It's like a lose-lose situation. If I rely on her, I hurt. If I push her away, I hurt. I think I hurt more from this than even ex-T. Just because how much I let L in.

I'm trying!

It seems highly unlikely that anyone here would be disappointed in your therapy choices. The investment is yours, no one else's. I agree with LT, people offer insights. For myself, sometimes I find them useful, sometimes they seem daft. Part of discussion and reflection is figuring out what your experience is. It seems like this is linked to the boundary issue - you are looking to others to conceptualise yourself rather than figuring our your inner self as the bedrock. Rather like you will have as much of L as she will offer, regardless of whether that actually serves you.

My comments are just comments. They are not instruction.

Hi, I hope you don't mind me commenting. I am only new here but find your story very interesting. You seem to only have hard choices. It sucks that there isn't one nice choice that fixes all the difficult things.

It reminds me a bit of my experience with sugar and sweetness. I used to eat a decent about of chocolate and could easily eat a couple of rows off a block of chocolate and not feel like I'd had too much. But after a couple of months of weight loss, and only having one or two squares once or twice a week at most (which I found very hard), I noticed that I really loved strawberries. Before I had found them a bit tart and a bit bland. But suddenly I could taste the complexities of the flavour and the sweetness was out of this world intense. I also found that Greek yoghurt with a teaspoon of honey was nearly as delicious as well. I didn't feel I had any need for chocolate and one square occasionally was plenty (in the first couple of weeks I used to think about it all day and couldn't concentrate on what I was doing).

I feel like your experience with therapy is like this but times a billion. Your therapist used to hand you bags of chocolate saying, "eat as much as you want". And like a normal human being, you have basic needs for attachment (like a basic need for energy), and being handed a bottomless bag of this need being met in the most loveliest and best of ways, how could you possibly say no to having more and more of it? And a bit like a child whose parents never let them have any chocolate, who then grows up and has their own money so splurges on all the best kinds, you probably missed out on this as a kid so you are extra keen to experience it and much less able than other people to choose no when it is offered to you so freely.

Then, she goes on leave - being used to eating a block of chocolate nearly every day, suddenly you get none. That's going to be incredibly hard to cope with. But then, randomly on some days you get a bag full again. Just when you had started to get used to going cold turkey, or occasionally eating some weird brand with a strange taste that you're not even sure you like (sometimes seeing someone else). That would be so hard to figure out how that fits in your current life.

I feel like the "healthy" (big use of quotes there) relationship is like having strawberries regularly and really enjoying them because you can taste ask the sweetness. You can have plenty of them and not be sick. And then just having chocolate sometimes when you really need that boost, but tasting every molecule. A "good" therapist would know regular strawberries and occasional chocolate is maintainable long term and good for clients. A therapist encouraging a vulnerable client to get used to infinite chocolate is not so good. Sure, they probably feel good when they see the client enjoying all the treats they missed out on when they were younger. But it isn't maintainable forever. And she never considered what it was like for the client to be expecting chocolate every day to have it suddenly cut off without a plan for a tapering period or anything. It seems so irresponsible and thoughtless to me.

And now the client is being offered infinite chocolate again, which they know they really really enjoyed, but they also know isn't good for them, and they have to try to figure out for themselves how to navigate saying no to the irresistible offer, when the person who is supposed to help them with that is the one offering the infinite chocolate on the first place! How can the client possibly win in this scenario?

@crystalcat
And more than a metaphor for me! My father plied me with chocolate to make up for my mother's physical and emotional absence. I guess thats why i crave double chocolate (chocolate chocolate chip). I used to watch my mother inhale salad. It was too vinegary for my tender mouth so i would often decline. They were fine with my self-exclusion. But now as i heal i find myself craving salad

Thanks Crystalcat.

Yes, I completely agree with your analogy. Everything. It's been really hard trying to stay "healthy". She's offering me everything she took away. And I want it, crave it! But for one, I know it's not healthy, and two, she's going to do this again to me.

So far, even though it's been only 2 days since session, I've been pretty good with not emailing. I told her not to randomly email me either, so that helps.

I still don't know what a healthy balance looks like. But I know it shouldn't make me obsess or feel shame. We're doing "I love yous" and hugs for goodbyes, and they hurt so much. It's like everything stings now. So cravings vs pain is really hard to navigate. For now, I know that contact needs to be restricted as much as possible. I'm not even depending on her for my safety right now.

It's been so painful and confusing having L back.

Great post Crystalcat. I've been thinking a lot about this recently...about my own past therapy and some of the therapists I read about here who offer multiple sessions per week, outside emails, etc. to clients with attachment longings due to unmet needs in childhood (I'm one of those clients, btw).

It seems very wrong to knowingly create a dependency in a client who will then struggle to maintain their own healthy boundaries and sense of self...ESPECIALLY when the therapist literally benefits financially from the clients attachment and dependency. From what I've read on this forum (and others) it seems many clients stay with 'not-so-great' therapists because they are too desperately attached to leave. I myself saw a therapist like this a few years back. Rather than healing my trauma while building ego strength, self awareness and resiliency- I became more dependent, more desperate for her validation, less resilient, and more isolated from others. But I was too attached to leave her. I loved her and was attached like she was my mommy and I was a child. It was horrible. In my opinion, this behavior from therapists is damaging and potentially unethical on the part of the therapists. At the very least there should be FAR MORE informed consent around this issue!

Edited to add:

I am definitely not judging those who stay with these therapists. I too would still be with mine had she not left me first. At the time I was incredibly devastated. I had been seeing her 3x a week for over two years. I was consumed by thoughts of her. I would count the hours until I could see her again. I hung on her every word and email reply. It was excruciatingly painful when she left.

Of course, now I see it was the best thing that could've happened. I'm still in therapy with a different therapist who I adore, but the therapy no longer rules my life or dictates my entire week. I am more resilient and able to cope with hard feelings, big issues, etc without constant reassurance and validation from my therapist. Sure, I continue to need therapy but it's no longer so focused on my attachment to the therapist and I'm making more progress and feel like an adult again.

I think one of the deeply confusing factors in attachment territory is that certain aspects of the dependency can look like growth. For example, as you grow closer to your therapist it can feel like you are learning to accept closeness, becoming more fluent with intimacy, allowing someone to witness your pain, exploring your vulnerability, and so on. However, whether this is actual growth or a repeat of unhelpful inter-relation patterns around dependency/lack of agency/yearning for an unfillable need to be met/etc is not clear. It feels a bit like in order to enter into attachment work, you already need to be sufficiently aware of your attachment wound in order to protect yourself from rogue therapy practice.

Glad you liked my analogy, I was worried it might sound flippant (comparing something so deep like a bond with sugar).

Just wanted to add that you should be really proud of yourself. You are showing huge strength, not only being able to appraise the situation from an outside perspective and not immediately getting consumed by it again but also actively trying to fix it, basically completely on your own, even though doing so is incredibly painful. I think a lot of people in your situation would lack self-enquiry and self-reflection and immediately get consumed by the relationship again and try to forget the pain ever happened. Instead of that you are using the pain to improve things for yourself in the future.

I can see two main tasks that you'll have to contend with as this goes on.

The first is working out what you want your future relationship with her to look like, so you can deal with each temptation as it comes instead of rejecting all or having to agonise over each one. It is definitely possible to have some intense nice things if they are in moderation and you aren't dependent on them, then you get to fully enjoy them when they happen (and when you really need them) but be OK when they aren't.

The second would be whether you want to stay with her long term or find someone else. Maybe the confusion and hurt never goes away and it is too hard to transition to a more distanced relationship. Maybe it is a bit like having an ex-boyfriend whom you really love, but who cheated on you. The love makes you want to keep them around as a friend, but you find the hurt and love don't fade and it is too hard to see them regularly and you have to say goodbye for your own sake.

Both of these are very, very hard. They both involve transitioning to fruit as sweetness, none of which you like the taste of now (due to the chocolate) but you know theoretically will taste just as good once the transition is complete. But you can't know for sure. Maybe you spend months trying to get used to strawberries and it actually turns out you hate them and you like apples instead. Or you thought you would eventually get used to one square of chocolate a week but it turns out that square drives you crazy with wanting more and that refuses to fade with time like you thought it would.

I haven't had a relationship like yours but I can picture what it might have been like in some of my worst times. It would have been a lifeline, and made things completely bareable, and I would have made better choices with a support like that. I would not have been able to find the strength to resist it like you have!

It will be tough to figure it all out and maybe you make a wrong choice to start with and have to correct your path, maybe even more than once. If your first choice turns out to not be right for you I believe you are strong and won't give up, you'll learn something from it and stick to the path of making your future better.

I just emailed T asking for her input about trusting L, boundaries, session frequency, attachment, etc. And she emailed me back 30mins later. She's not known for long emails, but she did a good length this time.

She thinks I'm feeling resentment. That I should work on understanding and forgiveness. She thinks I should accept what happened and move on. She said I don't have to forget or dismiss my experience and feelings. Just that I need to accept what happened.

She also thinks I can continue to trust L. However, she wants me to try out being less attached. She said it's okay that I have boundaries and am keeping L at arm's length. She said I can always take down my walls later. But to practice what it's like to be less attached in a safe therapeutic space. But overall, she wants me to be open and honest with L about everything.

That sounds spot on.

Resentment is poisonous. Sometimes we just have to accept that whatever happened sucked and move forward. Spending emotional energy rehashing and resenting things that are over with keeps you stuck in bitterness that serves no one.

Your therapist is back. She didn’t set out to hurt you. She’s still there. Hanging on to the resentment is keeping you stuck. You are doing that to yourself and you deserve to allow yourself to move forward. She seems like a caring person. Forgiving and moving forward doesn’t negate your feelings; it simply puts you in control of your future. You CAN choose to honor your feelings and experience AND move forward. It isn’t one or the other. It can be both.

I think I want to move forward. But I'm scared. Plus, I don't know how to forgive without some sort of closure/understanding. Everything is still fresh, too.

I know she's back and that she didn't mean to hurt me. And she did hurt me. I'm going to have to go through this again at some point. I don't want a repeat of being super attached and not having support

This is what - oh who is that guy, the good enough mother guy - calls the rupture - repair cycle. Its not that there is NEVER a rupture. We are human, we are not perfect. But the good enough mother comes back.

I wonder what our NOT good enough mothers did to cause such distrust and resentment. I remember being around 2 years old and asking my dad if he would please tell my mother to move out, like the way they had gotten rid of the boarder. How could i have no freaking idea she was my family? I just knew she was never nice to me. Its kind of horrifying to have such a clear memory. I truly believe you are reliving a similar childhood betrayal. Like your sister being born. Something. It clipped your synapses a long time ago.

Donald something.

ETA - THANKS, lost, yes, winnicott. Thats why it feels so impossible - the clipped synapses. Clipped isnt the right word, but we were developing and growing and the next move would have been repair and trust , only it didnt happen. Tiger Woods was golfing from like infantfood. We were distrusting even longer. Probably from the womb. The ability to trust - its like asking us to golf like Tiger.

But nobody is asking quite that of us.

Winnicott, perhaps?

I'm not sure you necessarily need to forgive. A rupture years ago with my T was his push for me to forgive my mom for some stuff. He just seemed hung up on "forgiveness" being the answer to everything (he's since backed off).

I think it's possible to move forward without forgiving. Maybe you could eventually get to that place, but you aren't ready now--plus, she's only been back a couple weeks. I think you can still work on moving forward with her, while still remembering that she hurt you and that it's not all OK. Maybe your relationship can't be exactly the same as it once was, and if you're looking for that, it may not be realistic. But you can rebuild something new. I forget what you called it--maybe it was just "AND thinking." But you could think, "I was hurt by her, AND I'm still going to try to have a relationship with her."

I did have a similar memory when I was in preschool/kindergarten. Most children cried when their parents dropped them off. I always cried when my mom came to pick me up. I also know that ever since kindergarten, I've been attached to other women as a mother-figure. And my dad has told me that when I was a baby, my mom wanted nothing to do with me because I was colicky.

Yes, LT. Both/And. That's what L taught me. That two opposing things can both exist.

I do agree with you. I do want a relationship with her AND she has hurt me. I just don't know what our "new" relationship is like, what is the middle path? How do I get my needs met, within her boundaries, that is healthy?

I think I am moving forward, just dragging my feet complaining along the way. I show up. I talk even if it takes me awhile. I'm still open and honest with her. And I tell her I love her (I do). I think that's what's saving us: that I still love her. It keeps me invested. That and our history. I gave her my all for our relationship and this journey. And I believe she's always been honest with me. That's huge for me.

Holy carp scarlet. God i HATE those little off the cuff statements that have such a world of hurt in them.

If there is no synapse, its like the road just drops off, no pavement, no way forward. But you can always build yourself one of those rope bridges, right? Ah ha ha.

I didnt cry getting dropped off at school either.

Another hard session and again crying the whole time. I shouldn't be surprised. I think this will be a trend for a while.

We covered a lot of ground. So much so that I don't actually remember most of it. I know we talked about shame and embarrassment for my feelings and attachment. I know I said I felt no shame for my push/protective parts. I told her how I felt it was her responsibility to make sure I had a good therapist, and that because it didn't work out, she could have reached out to a colleague and ask them to help me find another therapist. We talked about physical boundaries I have, and how emotional boundaries are harder. Hmm. That's really all I remember. But I know there was more.

I've agreed to try to add Tuesday sessions. For now, it will be on the phone. I just have so much shame that it's hard to make eye contact, so video would be extremely difficult. I feel like I'm giving into her by agreeing to Tuesdays. I don't want to fall back into the dependency and extreme attachment. But her reasonings made sense, so I agreed.

Another crying session, but this time I think it was productive. Not exactly productive for our relationship, but productive in therapeutic value. Well, maybe for our relationship because today I felt like she was emotionally in it with me. I think so at least.

We talked about emotional object constancy, how I struggled with it during her leave, realistic expectations, and examples of how I able to have it now. We also talked about how my life has been unfair to me especially how my childhood has affected me. We discussed how I try to be small, good, and perfect, and lower my expectations of people. And how I fawn instead of being assertive.

Having it be a phone session was both good and bad. I wasn't affected by her presence and didn't feel like she was staring at me. Also, I had an "escape" by hanging up the phone if I needed to. But I missed the "withness" of in-person. And on the phone, I have to constantly be talking and can't have a silent break. Overall, even though I'm more triggered in-person, I prefer it.

Overall, I think it was good. Baby step forward. Scary because I have to take another step, but reassuring that maybe we will be okay.

Well done, Scarlet. One step at a time is all you can do. ❤️

I agree with Lost--glad it was productive, if painful.

Thanks Lost and LT! It means a lot to me to have yours and others support and to see that I'm trying. I am trying so hard. Like I told L today: I'm trying because I do believe she has been honest with me. While things might not make sense to me or I just don't understand, I don't think she's ever lied to me. So I keep trying.