[LovesShelly]

Hello everyone.

I posted about this before, but things have gotten more seriouse since last time.
Here's the link to the post I made before:
http://forums.psychcentral.com/showthread.php?t=207592

I have a friends with benefits relationship with my friend Josh.

I just need help understanding some things.

My friend, Kim, keeps telling me that I shouldn't have a friends with benefits relationship. She says that I'm having sex for all the wrong reasons. I do understand some of the reasons why she doesn't want me having sex (pregnancy, STD's, ect.), but I don't know why she thinks I'm having sex for 'all the wrong reasons'.
Am I having sex for all the wrong reasons?

Some of my friends think that Josh likes me more that just a friend.
Josh and I talk almost every other night, we spend time together when we can, we are very open with each other, and he buys me things for no reason at all. We can talk for hours (we can talk on the phone all night at times). Sometimes he calls me in the middle of the night just to masturbate to my voice.

I'm not looking to be in a relationship right now. And, from what Josh tells me, he doesn't want to be in a relationship either.
I don't want to hurt Josh, that's why I want to know if he could have feelings for me.

I'm just so confused. Is what I'm doing wrong? Should I put a stop to our friends with benefits relationship? Could Josh have feelings for me?

I just don't see why I need to put a stop to this.

[JLarissaDragon]

It sounds like he wants the benefits of the relationship more than the commitment. I cannot know how you are thinking, but if it was me, I would feel really used. There are guys who will commit out there.

[LovesShelly]

Thank you JLarissaDragon,

It's just, I really don't want commitment right now. I kind of like what me and Josh have.

[Ygrec23]

I'm a commitment person. Always have been, always will be. But I just don't see what's wrong, if a commitment partner isn't on the horizon, to get what you can from a nice, decent, friendly, cuddly non-commitment person. Which is what I take it you mean by a "friends with benefits relationship."

Being alone alone is really bad. And commitment people, to one's own specifications, don't grow on trees. Having a "friends with benefits relationship," by definition, doesn't stop you from going off and latching up with the next commitment person you find. I see no reason to feel badly about this.

To advise a person in an FWB relationship that she shouldn't do that and should stick it out for a commitment person or bust, well, to me, I'm sorry but that's a kind of bullying. A person can be down, can be hurting, and she may well not be able to lay hold of a commitment person at the moment. In such situations, an FWB relationship is far better than nothing, and by no means to be denigrated as in any sense wrong.

Take care.

[LovesShelly]

Thank you so much Ygrec23,

You seem to understand were I'm coming from! I don't understand whats "wrong" about it. Josh is a nice person and wouldn't do anything to hurt me. We both just want someone to spend time with, niether of us want a committed relationship right now. I don't want to be alone, so it's nice to have Josh there when I need him.

I don't understand what Kim means when she tells me that I shouldn't be in a FWB relationship. She keeps telling me that I'm too childish to understand why it's wrong. I have talked to poeple older and younger than me; no one understands what she means.

[jaguar2012]

I don't think what you guys are doing is wrong at all.Now if he was just calling you up for a hook up i'd tell you to really think about it, but in the end if you are okay with your situation that is all that matters.You are living your life and noone else is.You and him are both content with how things are and that's great.That kind of friend is difficult to find and the fact that he calls you and you guys hang out there has to be feelings there on both parts, but a title in't needed and i'm slowly figuring this out.Enjoy the time you guys have together.
I am going out with this wonderful guy and have been for a little over a month.I see noone else and neither does he (from what he says), but at first when he said he didn't want a relationship or think he was capable of having a successful one I took offense to it, but it's so soon for us to be having those conversations and all I really know is that I like him and we have a great time together.He treats me well.I do not want to jump into anything so I asked him to not get into those serious conversations just yet.I told him to relax and just have fun.Who knows what the future holds.There's no point to analyzing something because if it's meant to be it will be.Things are fine.I'm content and so is he.At least I hope.He seems to be a great communicator from what I can see.Hard to find in a man.

Advice to both of us....lets just enjoy what we have with these men.

[Ygrec23]

Hmmmm. I think I DO know where you're coming from. You're a perfectly decent person who's being forced to choose between what I call "alone alone" and an FWB. And I can't conceive that there's anything wrong with an FWB in any way.

There are, however, a lot of people in this world who have semi-puritanical ideas about relationships. For whatever cultural, religious or psychological reasons. It is true that in these days there are many young men who are very, very, VERY suspicious of commitment. And there are, to my knowledge, quite a number of women who are very, very angry at men who have a problem with commitment. So their advice is pretty much to do whatever it takes to make those young men unhappy. Not to give them what they want or are asking for. Not to have a FWB.

I feel differently. And very much so. I'm concerned about YOUR emotional health and well-being. And I'm quite convinced that even a transient relationship is better than none at all, provided, of course, that you're not being beaten, tortured or otherwise taken advantage of.

Kim, if you're reading this post, please don't feel that I'm dumping on you. Your feelings and convictions may well not be what I've described. I'm talking simply about what I know from my experience in being an uncle to seven nieces in constant contact with them.
Me, I've been married for 42 years, since I was 23, to the same lovely lady I fell in love with at that time. I very much hope and pray that you, LovesShelley, have the same experience in the near future. But times are hard now, and it may take a while before you can find your forever true love.

Take care!

Originally Posted by LovesShelly

Thank you so much Ygrec23,

You seem to understand were I'm coming from! I don't understand whats "wrong" about it. Josh is a nice person and wouldn't do anything to hurt me. We both just want someone to spend time with, niether of us want a committed relationship right now. I don't want to be alone, so it's nice to have Josh there when I need him.

I don't understand what Kim means when she tells me that I shouldn't be in a FWB relationship. She keeps telling me that I'm too childish to understand why it's wrong. I have talked to poeple older and younger than me; no one understands what she means.

[LovesShelly]

Thank you jaguar2012 ,

Yes, lets just enjoy what we have with these men.

I will enjoy the time I have with him . I like our friendship the way it is. I'm glad to hear that there are people who don't think it's "wrong".

It's good to hear that you found such a nice guy. I hope things turn out great for you two! Wishing you the best of luck .

[sandworm]

there is a way to clarity. It is this. if it is a relationship with no
strings that you want, and if it is a relationship with no string that he
wants. then....
(by relationship : doing what you want to do, because you want to do it)
the attachment factor is the issue.
Drop him like a rock. tell him you don't feel you need or want to see him for
now, or for the future, maybe later. who knows, in a week, a month
or 3 months. Tell him you want to take a break from talking on the
phone. After all, this is just for kicks 'booty calls'.
Have no contact with him for oh.... 3 weeks. See what action he
takes. If he comes running to you, asking for 'something more'.
then you have your answer. If you don't want 'something more' from
your position (at the beginning of this experiment, then don't
pursue anything with him. You are in different places and
he and you will get hurt. If you find that you both want just
casual (SAFE) sex, then continue. You will know you are on the same page
because he will not call you all in a froth to reconnect, but saying he
needs you so much. If that happens, trouble.

Don't listen to his words. watch his actions and intent behind his
looks, relations, and behavior.
Some people do not know how to commit, ...my ex- for instance.

Sandy (pecan cookie)

[Ygrec23]

I think there's an easier way to "clarity." It's just sitting down with the guy and having a heart-to-heart about what each of you, really, sincerely, want from the relationship. In such a conversation, he would have no reason to misrepresent his position, since he knows you're okay with FWB's.

If, on the contrary, you just drop him in a nasty way, cutting all ties without explanation, you'll simply alienate him and destroy the possiblity of any relationship at all, including an FWB.

A hundred years ago, there used to be a male philosophy (just among some men, not all) regarding dealing with women: "treat 'em rough." That's no longer something any decent man believes, something now limited to abusers. But the same slogan now seems to have been adopted by some women. And it's just as inappropriate coming from the female side as from the male side.

If you're in an abusive relationship, physical or psychological, then get out, immediately. Don't put up with any kind of abuse just to have a relationship. But I think it's possible to have an FWB without abuse, unless, of course, you believe that an FWB IS abuse. But on that point, everyone has to make up their own minds.

Anger has no place in any relationship unless one of the parties is overtly doing something wrong. The fact that they might not want to commit is not a legitimate basis for anger unless they have in some manner misled you into thinking that they might want to commit. That, of course, is called "stringing along." And 'stringing along" is wrong.

But if you're both straight with each other, and treat each other decently, I still can't see any problem with an FWB.

Take care!

Originally Posted by sandworm

there is a way to clarity. It is this. if it is a relationship with no strings that you want, and if it is a relationship with no string that he wants. then.... (by relationship : doing what you want to do, because you want to do it) the attachment factor is the issue. Drop him like a rock. tell him you don't feel you need or want to see him for now, or for the future, maybe later. who knows, in a week, a month or 3 months. Tell him you want to take a break from talking on the phone. After all, this is just for kicks 'booty calls'. Have no contact with him for oh.... 3 weeks. See what action he takes. If he comes running to you, asking for 'something more'.
then you have your answer. If you don't want 'something more' from your position (at the beginning of this experiment, then don't pursue anything with him. You are in different places and he and you will get hurt. If you find that you both want just casual (SAFE) sex, then continue. You will know you are on the same page because he will not call you all in a froth to reconnect, but saying he needs you so much. If that happens, trouble. Don't listen to his words. watch his actions and intent behind his looks, relations, and behavior.
Some people do not know how to commit, ...my ex- for instance. Sandy (pecan cookie)

[sandworm]

Originally Posted by Ygrec23

I think there's an easier way to "clarity." It's just sitting down with the guy and having a heart-to-heart about what each of you, really, sincerely, want from the relationship. In such a conversation, he would have no reason to misrepresent his position, since he knows you're okay with FWB's.

As my mentor "H" would say "everybody lies"

I agree with your advice, I just don't have any experience that people are
honest with others or themselves.

All good, blessings Ygrec.

Sandy (pecan cookie).

[BlueInanna]

Hi LovesShelly,

I think it's fine too. You 2 are honest with each other. Men do develop attachments emotionally more than we expect though, so don't be suprised if wants more from you at some point, and that could be hard on your friendship with him.

You could tell Kim you appreciate her friendship and respect her point of view, but you are really happy with the current arrangement and don't see a need to change things with Josh.

It is your life, heart, body. I see you as finding your happiness which I think is very cool. Good luck.

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by sandworm

As my mentor "H" would say "everybody lies." I agree with your advice, I just don't have any experience that people are honest with others or themselves. All good, blessings Ygrec. Sandy (pecan cookie).

Hey, Sandy!

You present a VERY interesting question. Does everybody lie? And if they do, do they do it ALL THE TIME? Do they lie to themselves all the time? Or just to others? Or a mix of the two?

Wow. This is definitely a mind-stretching set of questions. Let me see if I can come up with what I myself really think on this topic.

I'd have to start out by saying that all people, unconsciously, themselves construct the worlds in which they live and that those worlds exclude aspects that are for whatever reason impossible for the individuals to accept or put up with.

For example, my mom was a horror to all her children. Do I remember this consciously? No. My mind couldn't put up with that, so I remember her as a nice lady. Was she really a nice lady? Absolutely not. My T and I have been around this block about 96 times if not more. She says I'm splitting and that may well be true. I'm seeing only her good aspects and not her many really bad aspects. Splitting is one way of lying to one's self.

So, I guess I'd have to say that UNCONSCIOUSLY we ALL "adjust" the truth ALL THE TIME. That's essentially (in my view) what the unconscious is for.

Now what about consciously? When anyone of us is sitting with another of either sex and talking with them how frequently are they lying to us? Well, first, I'd have to say that even though their eyes are open and their mouths talking to us, they're not entirely conscious of what they're doing.

But when people are truly focussed on what they say, when they, beforehand, have enough experience to know themselves, then, I believe people are capable of telling the truth. Most people at many times, but not always, are actually strongly desirous of telling the truth, of sharing their realities with others. If you can't do that, you're REALLY, REALLY alone. And that applies to both men and women. So I think truth is a real possibility, an achievable goal under the right circumstances.

However, unconscious behavior intrudes, I believe, into what we usually understand as conscious behavior. Well, then, IS THERE such a thing as "conscious" behavior in which we really do have a choice as to what we do or say? A choice whether or not to lie?

As said above, yes, I think there is truly conscious behavior, the problem is, of course, figuring out whether the person on the other side is telling the truth or feeding you a line.

In that regard, I'd have to say that all of us, almost without exception, have felt the pull, the tug, toward saying things that the person we're talking to wants to hear, but that may not be true. The whitest of white lies. Make 'em happy!

Can people descend from there into the blackest of black lies? "Yes, dear, sleep with me and I'll marry you next week!" Well, of course.

Is there anyway out of this labyrinth of deceit and despair?

Yeah. I think there is. Just as we're all programmed to lie to ourselves and to others (not all the time but lots of the time), we're also all programmed to sniff out the bs we receive from others. No, it's not automatic. Yes, it's something we actually "learn" over years and years of rather unhappy circumstances. But we DO learn it. Take any adult of average intelligence or greater, who hasn't lived in a dungeon all their lives, and that adult, male or female, will pretty much know what really is going on, even if they're being bombarded with lies. Which we all are, pretty much 24/7.

And even our evolved consciousnesses and unconsciousnesses are perfectly well aware that they need to amass as much information as they can about relevent situations. And so we have the absolutely factual attachment of women to movies, plays and television programs depicting the essence of all different kinds of male-female interactions known by the name of "romance." Men find such things boring. Why? Because the information gained from them is irrelevant to men's sexual strategies.

Women, on the other hand, need to know, even if they don't realize it, just how to discern a liar from someone telling the truth. Their evolutionary strategy depends on it. Women need to be able to tell apart the guys who really will be willing to work together forever raising and feeding children and those who won't. And watching soap operas and more sophisticated soap operas is by no means wasted time for women. It's all added to their central storage unit of information about reproductive strategy. And it's lifelong. I watch my own wife of 42 years still glued to the screen of programs and movies that feature up-close portrayals of women and men playing the oldest possible kind of poker, sexual and reproductive poker.

What does that say to me? It says to me that adults (and as far as I'm concerned, today in the 21st century that means people 16 or older) can be trusted to make their own decisions about what they're being told, truth or lies. Even if they make the wrong decision in one instance, it's a learning process. And that learning process works. Which means we can trust adults, male or female, to make choices that are pretty much in their own interest, whatever that may be.

The people we have to watch out for, the ones who need more help from us, are those who, for whatever deep psychological reason, keep making consistently bad decisions over and over and over. For whatever reason, self-punishment or anything else. And that kind of person has no hope of escaping their prisons without someone on the exterior pointing out (gently but persistently) that they're hurting themselves and that other outcomes really are possible.

So. While lies may be about as ordinary in human conduct as crossing the street or answering the phone, all kinds of anti-lie strategies have long since (from evolutionary perspectives) been integrated into our minds and hearts. So for most people, a trial-and-error learning process is sufficient. The ones who need our help are those who, for whatever reasons, can't engage in this learning process, who are stuck in a self-punishing cycle of being the sucker every single time.

Hope this helps! Take care.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by LovesShelly

I'm not looking to be in a relationship right now.

Should I put a stop to our friends with benefits relationship?

Okay, you are in a relationship. Being a good friend is a relationship and having sex with that friend; I can't imagine what definition you are giving "relationship" if that ain't it?

That you sound a bit desperate to not sever the relationship says, to me, that it means a great deal to you. If you "didn't care" then you both would not care if Josh was/was not more/less fond of you than you wish to believe and would not be worried. This isn't about Josh, he is in charge of taking care of himself. You either care for Josh and this relationship or you are using him. It sounds to me like you care for Josh but wish you didn't so are denying it.