[seeker1950]

Not sure if this the right thread. I have a student, one of my "homebase" students, a girl, also in my current art class, who became involved with a 30+ year old man thru World of Warcraft game online. She is 12 years old. This has been all over the news here. He drove from Michigan to meet her. She and another female student met him at his car. They both got in his car, and then the other girl left because they wanted to be alone. The other girl who left, texted a parent about it, and the police were called. When the police arrived, the man was on top of the girl in the car. The man was arrested, and, subsequently, his computer was confiscated by the police...local police traveling from our location to Mich.
The man, even while arrested, stated he intends to be with this 12 year old girl, after he is released, because they are "in love." So sad for this girl, who is so vulnerable. Principal called me to her office today. Said there is no father present. Girl is in counseling. I hope it turns out well for her.

[JLarissaDragon]

That is so incredibly sad. My daughter was raped at about the same age by an older man, while my ex husband was sleeping with his wife. It was a mess that destroyed her world and well as mine. There is hope but it is difficult. Now in her twenties she is ok, but she still has problems with PTSD. I do hope that she can find counseling and help. In my opinion there is not a fire hot enough in the Devil place to punish an adult who molests a child

[LookingforCalm]

I am going to pray for this girl, and mind you - I'm not a praying person. But that is just horrible. I hope she and her family are OK, and can get through this.

Rape is horrible. I've been through it myself, and I was not equipped to handle it. I even still have a hard time almost 20 years after the fact. I can't imagine it happening when I was still a child.

I hope it turns out well for her, too.

[LiteraryLark]

wow, that's very sad...just sad...kids these days...

kids? really...i think it's the adult man's at fault. period.

the kid is 12. the kid gets a free pass on making a wrong judgement call because they are 12. hopefully she has parents who will sit her down & school her on making better decisions. hopefully someone will sit the parents down & school them on being better parents & actually taking a part in their daughter's life & development & now her therapy & mental health.

& her friend..hopefully someone will hug her & tell her thank you & that she is brave, smart & awesome & the best friend anyone can ever have & then someone will help her make better choices as well too.

but best yet...i hope the adult man gets the crap beat out of him in jail as he rots for the attempted statutory rape of a minor..& a whole host of other charges. predator. chances are when they go thru that computer they will find lots of other little 12 yr old children on it. she wasn't his first...but thanks to her friend she was his last.

kids? really...do you know the ages of everyone you deal with on line? are you that computer savvy???

[LiteraryLark]

Originally Posted by stumpy

hopefully she has parents who will sit her down & school her on making better decisions.

Why haven't they done that before? Why haven't the schools taught children NOT to talk to strangers online? There are plenty of online safety websites available which I had to take and completle before I had permission to use the computers. That was at the Boys and Girls Club. I think all schools should be required to use the safety websites before the kids can ues computers. You can't just assume that the kids know better. Although, on second thought, why DON'T they know better?

[Trippin2.0]

I doubt she was playing online games at school. And no amount of 'don't talk to strangers' can prepare you for paedophile grooming. That savage is to blame, not the little girl.

[LiteraryLark]

The victim is never to blame for rape but what was she doing trying to meet a 30 year old man to begin with? She is lucky her friend wasn't raped as well!

most times people who try to meet others falsely lie about their age. you never used a false id? someone who is a predator online doesn't have to give an age..all they have to do is tailor their language to sound like the age they are seeking to target.

you can target someone by their age & likes by their language in conversation..especially on line when people tend to drop their guard. it's an anonymous place..& a child wouldn't even think that way. it doesn't even cross their mind..but a predator would. that is how they blend in..by pretending to be a 12 yr old girl. & that is how they get caught..snagged by someone pretending to be the same. you read all the time of creeps going to a meeting expecting to meet a child & instead find a burly cop instead. oopsy.

where were the kids parents? in the other room, or next to her. they thought she was playing games with her friends probably. who knows. hopefully they will be careful. hopefully she will be too.

she wasn't trying to meet a 30 yr old man to get raped..she probably thought she was going to meet some cool kid who was coming to meet her..maybe 17 or something. i doubt she knew he was that much older. & even if she did..she is 12. not the age of knowing much of anything. that's what like 6th grade? really.

kids make stupid mistakes. they are kids. she might have said i am 14 or 15 because it sounds cooler to be older. kids do that. we all did that...but still preyed on by a pedophile.

& as far as not talking to strangers on line? well ok..wouldn't that rule out everyone here on pc, pretty much all of facebook who you don't know beyond your inner circle, etc. you talk to strangers on line...where do you draw the line today?who exactly is a stranger? there are so many forums, etc..sure you put blocks, guidelines etc but how much control do you have?

look it's a different world...kids text nude pixs or semi nude pixs of each other all over the place & then e mail them to the net..again...how do you control that? there they are talking to people they know..just making really stupid choices.

[Perna]

Okay, home-schooled (no school "authorities" or anyone else to intervene) and no father! Playing World of Warcraft at at least 11 years old (to get good enough to attract this guy; it's rated "M" for Mature/age 17 and up) and able to go off and meet this guy, presumably during the day. I think the mother/guardian, whoever is "home-schooling" her has a lot to answer for.

Liebert allegedly got into an argument with the 12-year-old over one of the girl's female friends, whom Liebert thought the girl was having a relationship with. Liebert drove from Michigan to West Virginia and picked the girl up at her friend's house, the complaint states.

From: http://wvgazette.com/News/201203120056

I'd be hanging somebody up by their thumbs; does not sound like the girl can be "saved"/wants saving at this point? What 33 year old guy is jealous, thinking two 12 year old girls are having a relationship? How can two 12 year old girls be having a relationship and nobody knows/cares? It could be, the girlfriend told police because she was jealous? This whole situation is very sick.

[LiteraryLark]

Originally Posted by Perna

Okay, home-schooled (no school "authorities" or anyone else to intervene) and no father! Playing World of Warcraft at at least 11 years old (to get good enough to attract this guy; it's rated "M" for Mature/age 17 and up) and able to go off and meet this guy, presumably during the day. I think the mother/guardian, whoever is "home-schooling" her has a lot to answer for.

From: http://wvgazette.com/News/201203120056

I'd be hanging somebody up by their thumbs; does not sound like the girl can be "saved"/wants saving at this point? What 33 year old guy is jealous, thinking two 12 year old girls are having a relationship? How can two 12 year old girls be having a relationship and nobody knows/cares? It could be, the girlfriend told police because she was jealous? This whole situation is very sick.

No I'm sorry, you have to be dumb as a stump to a) release your home address to a stranger online and b) get in the car with a 33 year old. I'm sorry, maybe it's because my parents are cops and warned me at an early age regularly about the dangers of sexual predators, but I thought kids knew better I mean really. REALLY!? She is TWELVE not four. When i was 12 I had a crush on my 49 year old teacher. Did I go out and have an affair with him? No. I was 12 and I knew better.

[LiteraryLark]

And yes, the parents and the rapist are very much to blame.

[Typo]

(((((((((Seeker))))))))))))
I'm sorry you are going through this, I can only imagine how difficult it is. I am sending peaceful thoughts to you



She is a little girl, and she probably has a lot more going on than we know of.

When you are 12 you really don't know a lot about the world, especially if it is a small community. She probably felt scared, and obiligated to go along with what was happening when she met the man. She may have never thought he was going to hurt her or her friend.

NOt every kid is the same, not every kid is taught to avoid strangers, to be careful etc. Placing blame on this little girl is just wrong. She didn't make great choices no, but she didn't ask to be hurt.

Our choices have consquensces, but saying these 12 year old girls know better? is that even the point of this story? Of this post?

They are little girls, LITTLE GIRLS! Not everyone is blessed with having super involved parents, or being taught the dangers of the world. In some communites these things don't get talked about, they are taboo.

Why don't we think before we post and realize this is a support community not an argument over what two 12 year old little girls should and shouldn't know, what may have happend etc.

[Switch]

And now to add my perspective on this.

When I was 12 I remember sitting with a friend of mine - a pastor's daughter btw, if that matters to anyone - and her going onto an online chat. First question anyone asked was ASL? My friends answer was "18,F,Ontario". My social phobia hit hard enough then that talking to people online was scary because they'd think I was dumb or silly, or know I was lying, or a thousand things that could cause them to judge me, so I backed out. But the fact is, this was common practice.

I don't think my friend was doing it for sex, she was probably doing it to be 'cool' and learn what it was like to be older. That and the rush you get when you get hit on.

And they met playing WoW... I don't actually think they were playing WoW with the intention of hooking up, but I could be wrong.

Also, I'm sure she's been well-versed on internet pedo's, and would have turned away as soon as she saw he was 33, pulling up in his car if she hadn't known before hand.

It is possible this girl did know who this guy was, possibly admitting it to him later that she's not as old as she first said. It's also possible that he made her feel loved. Maybe he actually thinks they're in love! And maybe he said he'd still loved her despite her age. Manipulation like this is something I'm familiar with, and trust me, it makes sense at the time especially if the other person thinks what they're doing is right.

Does that mean it is right? Hell no! I think this guy needs some serious counseling, and this girl is going to be haunted by this for the rest of her life. Hell, I think her best friend and parents are also going to be haunted by this! But do I blame her parents; not really- I don't see much they could have done if it's a situation I think it is. However I think they're going to have a lot to deal with during this next section of her life, and I hope they handle it well.

Do I blame him, yes. He should have known better. I hate to say it this way, but if they're really in love, wait till she's older and it's legal. Besides that, he's sick, and I would tell him that, but not as a way to just leave him in the dirt.

Do I blame her, kinda. I have to, because of my own past. I know the stuff I've been through I should have seen coming, and I could have headed off. But despite that, not really. Do I think she's a bit of an idiot? Only as dumb as I have been in the past. But I don't really blame her for what has happened to her, just a little sad that she didn't realize soon enough.

Her best friend, however, deserves a medal. It takes a lot of courage to do what she did, and I think she will always have doubt that she did the wrong thing. I know in that position I would seriously be hurting, because she essentially betrayed her best friend. For her own good, yes, but when your 12 the betrayals all that matters. This girl is amazing.

And that's just my take on it.

[Perna]

She is single parented and home schooled and both she and the guy wanted this, he still is saying he wants to take her away to Michigan/wait for her to be older, etc.; she was not "raped" if raped strictly means unwilling. Yes, she was taken advantage of and sexually abused, because of her age. However, that does not make it any less the guy's responsibility but no one in the news reports around this whole story sound very bright/mature. There is no indication she lied about her age or did not welcome his coming to visit her; she was at her girlfriend's house specifically so she could contact him. The girlfriend got scared or jealous and turned them in/knew where they were. The girl in the mess is not complaining, the girlfriend ratted on them both.

Yes I pretty much agree with the nonpersonal remarks above. I'm not going to pick up a torch and pitchfork against this guy. I don't want to get into a moral discussion about this because the guy doesn't seem mature and intelligent enough for that to come into play. You have to wonder what was he thinking? There is no 12 year old ready for that type of relationship with a normal mature adult. There is no normal mature adult who would think a relationship with a 12yo could work even if it was legal.
I think I read in one of the reports that he expects her to be waiting for him when he gets out? This guy is not even close to being rational. If he is 33 years old then I don't think there is much hope that any type of therapy is going to help.
I can't see blaming the parents for this.

[lynn P.]

((Seeker1950)) - I'm sorry this event happened to one of your students and I know how upsetting this must be for you and your community. There was an incident in 2011 at my daughters school in grade 8 - a girl took pornographic pics of herself and sent them to a boy...who then sent them to all his friends.

IMO there are several to blame here. The best person here is her friend. First this man who is an obvious predator/pedophile who is deluded in thinking this is a worthy relationship. Even though I feel this was consensual, its still rape since she's underage. I do feel this girl should have known better - why didn't she - obviously her mother and other adults in her life didn't warn her or teach her about growing up too fast, internet safety etc. If a parent starts from a young age, instilling strong morals...this situation wouldn't happen, unless its completely forced.

I really believe society is deteriorating with kids having access to porn. Kids as young as 11 are having sex and group sex is happening more often. Oral sex used to be frowned on and now young people do this before intercourse. Kids are having sex in school washrooms and behind schools. In our school system they do teach internet safety but it won't shield all the kids. I'm a parent of 2 girls and I believe they would never do this. This isn't a clear case of a kid being forced against her will - he's still guilty of rape even if it was consensual.

[RomanSunburn]

Personally, I'm worried about the friend that reported all this. I haven't looked at the news article, but if the girl wanted to fool around with the guy, and sees her world coming crumbling down, she's probably going to take it out on the friend. I'm sure at some point, she'll realize what her friend did was the best thing possible, but the poor friend is going to need therapy herself, I'm sure, just because of the brutality of betraying your friend when your 12 and the consequences that will probably come with it.

This is the type of situation that scares me, though. How do you parent well enough to feel secure that this wouldn't happen to your kid? Or that your kid would be the friend calling adults about the situation? What do you do, don't give them cell phones or computers until they're in college? Where is the line between letting your kid have some privacy and freedom and completely protecting them? How do you shelter them but at the same time prepare them for the real world? How do you convey the consequences of these types of things instead of just saying "Don't do it, it's bad, trust me" at a time when they're rebelling against their parents?

Some of you are blaming the parents, some the kid, some the schools. (It is universally agreed that the 30 year old man holds the largest portion of the blame). So... How would you prevent this? Is it more important to figure that out instead of trying to put blame on someone?

I'm not going to blame a 12 year old kid for being groomed by a pedophile. I will not stick up for a pedophile. Not all girls even have their period by age 12. This is a child. I was still playing with barbies at 12, I was picked out by a pedophile, I just cannot stick up for his behaviour. It makes me sick, and I honestly can't believe anyone else can either. Children cannot consent to sex at 12, they do not even fully understand what's what. A 33 year old man does not have one single valid excuse.

Sorry I cannot be sympathetic to him. Yes how do we stop people from becoming pedophiles and predators? That's the important question.

Where do you draw the line on pedophiles? I think this needs to be a clear solid line. 12 isn't even a teen. She might not be experiencing the effects yet, isn't to say she won't anytime soon. Especially that it has been made so public. I have a 12 year old daughter, she is no where near ready for this type of relationship, she still plays with dolls and only nearly starting to go through puberty. She is educated and I am a watchful parent. She is not mature enough to make these choices wisely yet. I am 33 the age of the man, I cannot imagine having relations with my daughters or sons friends or peers. I don't care what he was thinking, I am sure at some point it popped into his head that this is wrong.

This is probably much to triggering for me to post on, but I don't think I'm out to lunch.

I don't think anyone is sticking up for the guy Anika. It's just that he obviously is not very bright and probably not much more mature or sophisticated than the 12yo. That's just an observation... it isn't meant to defend him or condemn her. What he did was illegal and he is going to be in jail for a long time I think. Realistically I don't see how you eliminate the possibility of something like this happening. Society probably is deteriorating but kids had sex when I was a kid and kids had sex when my father and grandfather were kids if you define kids as 12 to 15 years old.

They did have sex yes, but not always with full grown adults. And ya some of the posts sound like they are bouncing the blame all over the place.

No not going to be able to eradicate it, but we should try, yes? And now what, he does time and still plans on being with her, we release him back into society, and then?? What do we do? I don't have the answers either. A lot of pedophiles don't actually serve very long sentences, at least not where I live. And how does jail help. It's a big mess. Yes I consider 12-15 to be kids. Adult brains do not even finish developing till somewhere around age 25, impulse control being one of the last things to develop or so research says. Not saying a 25 year old is not an adult, but you only have one childhood, and adolescence, it's a short period of time in our lives. I think we need to get to a point where kids can actually be kids. Not like our society promotes this very well. He might be immature, but you know after having known a few pedos myself, they were not exactly not intelligent either. Quite the opposite.

[LiteraryLark]

He's gonna get a slap on the wrist and set free on probation after what, 6 months for "good behavior". And then he's going to find another 12 year old girl to play hanky panky with. It just doesn't stop. That's what pedophiles do, they manipulate people, whether they're "being a good boyfriend" or "being a good inmate" They enjoy playing games, and for some they enjoy being caught.

I didn't mean that they had sex with adults but no matter, that was off topic anyway.
I don't know what we do but you telling me that they don't serve long sentences bothers me. That was news to me. As far as blame...in this one it's the guy who will or should bear the most. I just have a hard time with black and white thinking in situations where there is so much grey area.
He has to be very immature emotionally and mentally challenged to think that this "relationship" ever had a chance and then to still think it could work. That's totally irrational. That doesn't excuse him or mean he shouldn't be punished. If he is this way at 33yo then I don't see him changing much in the future so I don't know what you do with him. Please don't think I'm sympathizing with him Anika...I'm not. What he did can't be excused or condoned.
I'm sorry if anything I said upset you.
Try not to let what happened trigger you

i doubt he will get off scott free..he will probably be designated a sex offender & have to be registered...because of her age it is technically a "rape case" since regardless of if she consented to sex she is not of legal age. period. & if he gets jail time i doubt also that his stay will be pleasant as child predators are not usally looked favorably upon.

still think this guy knew what he was doing...rocket scientist or not...the girl is a kid. hiopefully she will get put back together by a team of awesome dr's & t's.

hopefully someone will drop a cement block on numb nuts guy's head & smack some sense into him...& maybe some splinter's will land on mom's head too...

George, I wasn't speaking directly to you. Ya black and white thinking can be bad, so can washing everthing over with multiple shades of grey. There is no easy answer. Everyone has rights and everyone nowadays seems to think that we have the right to do whatever we choose and defend it till the bitter end. We don't seem very solution oriented as a society, just really goal drive, self gratification driven. Ya I am not liking society much. I don't like that people defend porn till the end, even tho it displays some of the most degrading, violent, disturbing behavior. Kids watch it, it has an effect on our society, but we defend it to the end for our own personal rights, no matter the bigger picture or effects it has on our society as a whole. I'm just using porn as one example, it isn't the end all be all.

I get that not everyone agrees with me, and that people's values are different. But we do not function as a whole unit, were so divided and separated, unfocused on anything except ourselves. It's a sad place to be. In my personal opinion i think its a big part of the problem. Yes generalizing a bit, but this reflects what I feel.

There is a saying that it takes a village to raise a child, I think it hold some truth, but where is the village.