[norwegianwoman]

I have become extremely cynical about men, because even the most liberal ones seem to be pigs when it all comes down to all. Women deal with sexual harassment in different ways: Some adjust to it and start interpreting it as a compliment because the alternative is too bad. While the rest, like me, just feel angry, sad, violated and offended that men somehow think that 1) they have a right to comment on the looks and bodies of random women passing them and 2) groping someone is an acceptable way of introduction. I am trying to interpret this as simply the behaviour of certain, immature men, but the truth is this is becoming harder and harder as it always surprises me which men turn out to be the most like this. It disappoints me to the core when a guy who seemingly cares about who you are as a person or who likes to portray himself as a guy who cares about women's rights and equality turns out to just pretend because it gets him into your pants. It makes me lose faith in men aswell as humanity (although I do know men who are for instance genuine feminists and who don't really seem to care whether the persons they hang out with are male and female, through and through, but it seems they are the small minority).

Anyways: What really shocks me, is the cheating. I am not saying women don't cheat. They do. But what appalls me, and my friends, is how casual men seem to be about it. Women who cheat usually keep their affairs somewhat secret, because they know their friends wouldn't approve. I have known my best friend since we were three and there is probably not a person alive, including my parents, I would feel more loyal to. I constantly defend her to others when she acts irrationally. Regardless: If she cheated on her boyfriend, it would not in any way be okay. If I knew about it I would feel bad, and I would feel guilty. I would first try to convince her to tell him and if it didn't work, I would tell him myself. I consider him a great friend aswell, granted, not as good as his gf who is my best friend. But this is irrelevant. I could never look him or her in the eye again if I knew about this and didn't tell. I would feel I was a bad friend not just to him, but also to her for letting her get away with this. I have talked to my female friends about this and they all feel the same. Those of us in a relationship know that if they ever cheated, we wouldn't let them get away with it. And they respect that.

What has begun to irk me is that men seem to defend other men to an extreme extent when it comes to this. I have myself seen otherwise decent guys act as wingmen for their occupied friends. If you confront them with it, they say "It's not my business". First of all, I never knew such cowardness existed - true friendship means also letting your friend know when they are doing something which is wrong, and second of all: When you turned the other eye or, even worse, acted as an accomplice in a friend's cheating, you MADE it your business.

Today I discovered EVERY SINGLE ONE - I will repeat this - EVERY SINGLE ONE of my female friends (the majority of my total amount of friends) have been hit on by guys who at some point reveal they are in a relationship. Now, some see this a cop-out: They say they are involved and if the other person doesn't mind, they keep going. With a clear conscience, it seems. Well, it doesn't matter if the person you cheat with doesn't mind it: YOU are the one in a relationship and staying faithful is your responsibility, no one else's. If you can't accept this then don't be in a relationship. You can't have it both ways. I have experienced this myself, and it made me particularly furious because the guy who tried to pull it with me was a guy I had been deeply in love with but who ditched me for his current gf. He lives in another city and clearly he thought that the moment he was back in my city, he could hit on me again and we would be back to what we had been. I was incredibly insulted for the complete disregard of my emotions he showed - he had broken my heart and I had dealt with it, and then he comes and thinks I will ask "How high" when he tells me to jump? A lot of men (and quite a few women) seem to have this extreme over-confidence in themselves and thus seem to find this atittude a natural thing, but to most people it seems a bit offensive. I am not your puppet. I will not go back to NOT feeling hurt just because you show some interest again. Stop trying to use my feelings to your advantage when your interest clearly doesn't go any further. This almost psychopathic behaviour seems to be increasingly normal. Back on track: Most of my female friends feel some variation of the same when someone tries to cheat on their partner with them. One, they are insulted that the guy clearly thinks they're an easy lay and don't even stop to consider that because they have casual sex doesn't mean they don't have morals. Two, they are annoyed that they have wasted their evening on someone they found interesting only to discover there is nothing there as the other person basically only saw them as a vessel to do something exciting and cheat with. Three, they are sad that the people around the potential cheater clearly see no value in informing them they are about to get dragged into such a situation and be used. It almost makes you wonder if men don't really regard women as equals... I will leave this hanging because I don't want this to become a flame war.

Why is it like this? Why do men accept, ignore and even defend cheaters? Why do they not feel it is their responsibility when their friend is about to do something stupid? Why do they to such a little extent feel loyalty to their friends' longtime girlfriends aswell, girls with whom they have become friends? Why do they rage when this happens to their sister or close female friend but don't realize they're part of the problrm when wingmanning their ffriend who is even engaged? I am generally a person who does not think the differences between men and women are tremendous but when it comes to this issue, I am shocked. For some reason males tend to feel more loyal towards their male friends than female friends.

I am so tired of this now I am once again considering giving up on men (for all practical purposes, I have at the moment but I do hope to find a decent, mature, funny, confident guy who can handle a challenge, a man who appears to be very hard to find.

[CosmicRose]

Are there any men you're close to in your life, whether its family members or friends or even coworkers? Because everything you mentioned isn't really a gender problem, its a human problem. My dad is the nicest man ever and he has the biggest heart I've ever met in anyone - he's the type of person who does good things when no one is looking and he's been the only parent of mine to support me 100% with everything in my life. My mom cheated on him, matter of fact my dad had 2 wives who cheated on him and left him for another man. So in this case, it was the women who were cheaters. So I'm just making a point that a cheater can be a man or a woman. A bad person can be a man or a woman. An abuser can be a man or a woman. I think you just might not have many men in your life to offer you positive views on men. If you're on an island that doesn't produce coconuts, you start believing every island doesn't have coconuts, which just isn't the case. You're painting with a very wide brush in your post, certainly not all men, or even most men, are like that. I'm a woman and I've cheated before. I'm wondering how many of those female friends you asked about getting hit on by taken men, have ever done the same thing. This isn't a gender problem, this is a human problem.

I would argue that most men are like this because of how we evolved from prehistoric times. In order to preserve our genes in ancient times, men were biologically programmed to have sex with as many women as possible to pass on his genes while women were biologically programmed to seek out one strong male partner to protect her and her children.

With that being said, some men are smart and strong enough to overcome this but most aren't.

[Lauliza]

Originally Posted by DarknessIsMyFriend

I would argue that most men are like this because of how we evolved from prehistoric times. In order to preserve our genes in ancient times, men were biologically programmed to have sex with as many women as possible to pass on his genes while women were biologically programmed to seek out one strong male partner to protect her and her children.

With that being said, some men are smart and strong enough to overcome this but most aren't.

I consider myself a feminist and agree with the above. As we've evolved and society has changed women are also more likely to cheat, although probably for different reasons. From a biological standpoint, we live might live too long for monogamy to really work. When people only lived 50 years, staying with one partner made sense. But now that people live well into their 80s and beyond, forever is a really, really long time. I often think that it's really not natural to want only one person and some people struggle with this more than others.

As far as confronting a cheater and even telling their partner, I don't entirely agree. I don't know how old you are and what your experience is, but as you age you might find this rigid thinking loosening up a bit. I'm not saying it's ok to cheat, but it's also not all that unusual for women as well as men. More than half or even more of eonen have cheated at some point, whether they were very young or grown and married. Ita not as black and white as you make it sound. Cheaters are not all bad people just like the most faithful are not all great people.

Originally Posted by Lauliza

I consider myself a feminist and agree with the above. As we've evolved and society has changed women are also more likely to cheat, although probably for different reasons. From a biological standpoint, we live might live too long for monogamy to really work. When people only lived 50 years, staying with one partner made sense. But now that people live well into their 80s and beyond, forever is a really, really long time. I often think that it's really not natural to want only one person and some people struggle with this more than others.

As far as confronting a cheater and even telling their partner, I don't entirely agree. I don't know how old you are and what your experience is, but as you age you might find this rigid thinking loosening up a bit. I'm not saying it's ok to cheat, but it's also not all that unusual for women as well as men. More than half or even more of eonen have cheated at some point, whether they were very young or grown and married. Ita not as black and white as you make it sound. Cheaters are not all bad people just like the most faithful are not all great people.

Ah yes, not to mention that the longer the lifespan, the higher probability of cheating especially when people get older and less physically attractive as a result.

[ManOfConstantSorrow]

Guilty as charged. I blame the testosterone. It is a grave error to expect too much from men or suppose that you can change them.

From my experience, people in general regardless of gender are selfish and unreliable. I avoid becoming too attached to people and avoid long term relationships simply because I fully expect people to betray/cheat on me. I suspect hidden motives in everybody and keep my guard up around others pretty much 24/7.

Some might say that not having a long term relationship leads to a lonely life but guess what: girlfriends/boyfriends aren't cheap. They cost lots of money, time, and possible life dream sacrifices and in most cases they make for poor ROI. I'll keep my money, time, and goals thank you

My best advice for OP would be to play the field with other guys but expect the worst while hoping for the best. Don't get too emotionally attached to anybody and don't be afraid to stand your ground when needed.

[norwegianwoman]

CosmicRose: Wow, did I really come off like that? Of course I have plenty of men in my life. Me and my dad are best friends and he is a man I greatly respect (thus also making men I meet seem bad in comparison). I have always had many male friends, when I was younger I virtually ONLY had male friends, but this has changed over time, I still have many male friends though. So it's not that I think all men are awful, I just think I prefer men as friends and hanging out with them BEFORE 2 am, lol. My friends are not like this towards me, it's mostly strange men or men I've met once or twice. But even amongst my really good friends there are some men whom I seem act partly like this towards women and it makes me so incredibly angry, especially when we have talked about how we hate when men are like that around him a million times. It's like he only cares about how women feel about it when it's his friends - that, or he doesn't realize he's doing exactly like that himself.

So to answer your question: Yes, I have plenty of men in my life whom I love and cherish as friends. And family members. I used to be quite the tomboy so I always got along great with guys and still do when we're not in a hooking up-situation/when someone tries to hit on me (sometimes then aswell, if they're not assholes).

[norwegianwoman]

CosmicRose: Wow, did I really come off like that? Of course I have plenty of men in my life. Me and my dad are best friends and he is a man I greatly respect (thus also making men I meet seem bad in comparison). I have always had many male friends, when I was younger I virtually ONLY had male friends, but this has changed over time, I still have many male friends though. So it's not that I think all men are awful, I just think I prefer men as friends and hanging out with them BEFORE 2 am, lol. My friends are not like this towards me, it's mostly strange men or men I've met once or twice. But even amongst my really good friends there are some men whom I seem act partly like this towards women and it makes me so incredibly angry, especially when we have talked about how we hate when men are like that around him a million times. It's like he only cares about how women feel about it when it's his friends - that, or he doesn't realize he's doing exactly like that himself.

So to answer your question: Yes, I have plenty of men in my life whom I love and cherish as friends. And family members. I used to be quite the tomboy so I always got along great with guys and still do when we're not in a hooking up-situation/when someone tries to hit on me (sometimes then aswell, if they're not assholes).

[norwegianwoman]

Lauliza: Yes, I might be rigid about this, and I am still young. But I always have been more conservative than my friends when it comes to relationships, they for instance don't see the problem with an open relationship or several people dating each other at once, while I do. Why label it as a relationship when you don't plan on being faithful to your partner? Then you're basically just friends with benefits. Which is fine by me, just call it what it is, then. And yes, I do think the least your partner deserve after being cheated on is getting to know about it, it's up to them how much they let it bother them and whether or not they want to stay together anyways (which many people do. It is simply not acceptable to go behind someone's back like that in a relationship. Relationship are about honesty and trust. I believe that if I was in a relationship and my partner told me he had cheated on me, there's a much greater chance I would stay with him than if he DIDN'T tell me and I found out later. Then the trust is broken, and without trust there's no relationship. If you can't stay faithful, don't be in a relationship. Simple as that. Too many people get in relationships without really considering what it means, which ends in bad break-ups later.

And when it comes to biology: Well, that's too simple. Humans have long since stopped following simply instinct. Socialization and cultivation have long ago made us be able to be in control of our impulses. For most people the natural reaction today would not be to get violent if they felt hurt or their position was threatened. It used to be that it was. There are plenty of things throughout history that people have said is natural/wired into us by biology, such as certain differences between sexes or races which quickly turn out to be cultural/societal and not biological when put to the test. It used to be said for instance that by biology, women were not able to comprehend complex information or understand enough to even vote! Or study, for that matter. Now women are the majority of students in many studies. I don't believe "biology" is a valid excuse, I just think it is an excuse as claiming it is biology it gives you a reason to act on impulses and not feel bad about it.

[Lauliza]

Theories on biology/brain differences to explain racial and gender differences were used to promote stereotypes at certain times and have little or no real basis in science. Hormonal differences are fact, however. The biology theory isnt mean to give men a waiver to go ahead and cheat, it's just one of the possible differences between the genders and offers some explanation as to the motivation behind their behavior and why the reasons are often different in men and women. This is a fact - testosterone promotes certain behavior (aggression for example) and the more testosterone one has, the more extreme the behavior. It also increases sex drive. As testosterone decreases with age, so does sex drive. Thats why men and women tend to be mismatched in sex drive at certain ages. It could also be used to argue one reason why you may find more 35 year old men cheating than you will 60 year olds. Women cheat too, but often for different reasons and often are more dissatisfied in their relationships as they age than men are. None of this is set in stone of course, but it is pretty interesting when you look deeper into relationship dynamics and how they are not as clear cut as they seem. As for telling people, that's a loaded debate and many people feel differently about it. I think the most important thing to consider is hat the consequences may be for all the people involved before sharing anything. Sometimes people want to know, but sometimes they really don't - it depends on so many factors besides simple right and wrong. I might confront the cheater, but I'm not sure about rest. I don't think it's necessarily up to me to make that decision for someone else based on my own values.

[healingme4me]

Want to know what irks me about the cheating subculture? If to vent frustration with what's wrong with that married man for flirting or getting too personal...or ranting about it...

To turn around and be asked, are you in therapy?

As though the one with moral code is defective...

[Webgoji]

Originally Posted by norwegianwoman

Why is it like this? Why do men accept, ignore and even defend cheaters? Why do they not feel it is their responsibility when their friend is about to do something stupid?

We don't. Losers do.

Those are men in name only. Because a man is honorable and without his honor, he's nothing but a child waddling around in big-boy shoes. Men don't accept, ignore or defend people that betray the trust of their loved ones. Men do the right thing like address cheating with both their friend and his/her loved one. Just like they defend, support and protect the people around them.

But losers ... yeah they play the infidelity game all the time.

[divine1966]

Plenty of men don't cheat. And men I know never defend cheaters. I think maybe you associate with wrong kind of men. Sure many people cheat. And I know that some women cheat too. There are nasty people out there. I think it's important to be selective. Most people I associate with have good morals. Stay out of trashy crowds and you'd be surprised.

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[Mygrandjourney]

I am a man and I don't defend cheating. However, it does take two to tango, as it were. A married man seems to have many attributes that make him attractive to women -stability, economic advantages, better health, etc. It is up to the man to understand and accept that despite being committed to one partner, he will continue to find other women attractive. IT is also up to the man to reign in his hormones and not act on his desires. It is up to the woman to ask herself who this person is and why they are hitting on her. If this happens in the context of a bar/nightclub, I say you get what you get. I have a few female friends who have been in long term affairs with married men. They all had elaborate justifications regarding why they remained in the relationships and they appeared to understand the limitations of the relationshps. They are attractive and intelligent women and in one case, single and potentially available to other prospective partners; in another case, financially locked into an unsatisfying long term relationship, so seeking satisfaction elsewhere. So, I wouldn't say cheating is solely the province of men, but yes, I agree that more men cheat on their spouses than women.

[JaGo]

As stated, it's really more of a human problem. I've never cheated but I've been cheated on. But I knew that the person who cheated on me just wasn't a good pick, doesn't mean that there aren't better choices out there.

Originally Posted by Webgoji

We don't. Losers do.

Those are men in name only. Because a man is honorable and without his honor, he's nothing but a child waddling around in big-boy shoes. Men don't accept, ignore or defend people that betray the trust of their loved ones. Men do the right thing like address cheating with both their friend and his/her loved one. Just like they defend, support and protect the people around them.

But losers ... yeah they play the infidelity game all the time.

I didn't want to get personal in this thread, but your comment invoked a response from me. I also might be able to better help the OP understand why some people think differently on this subject so here goes nothing.

I disagree with the notion that "real men" look out for everyone and here's why:

Unless you're a police officer or are in the military or you live in a small village or tribal community where needing to protect others is important to your own survival, it isn't your job nor your responsibility to protect everybody.

To me, a "real man" is somebody who possesses both the strength and courage to defend whatever or whoever he holds dear no matter what. Most of us live in medium to large sized cities where we don't need to rely on those around us for survival, therefore, there is nothing wrong with not caring about every person in ones community.

Humans, like virtually every other living organism, are selfish in nature and are genetically programmed to care only about surviving and procreating. While we, as humans possess superior intelligence and can thus, navigate away from our primitive biological directive to some extent, not doing so doesn't make anybody less of a man or woman.

While I don't defend or justify cheaters myself, beings that the only people that I owe any loyalty to and the only people that I would consider risking my life to protect are my family and friends, if one of my friends or family members cheated on their spouse, unless I was also friends with the spouse or I had a really good reason to, I would keep and defend their secret (regardless if said friend was male or female) out of loyalty and respect for the friendship or relationship. I have a hard enough time as it is opening up to people and making friends who I can trust, so I make it a priority to keep what few friendships and relationships that I have at any cost. I consider my friends and family my "tribe" or "community" if you will and I seek to defend it at any cost.

I don't needlessly hurt people by any means and I even would help a stranger if they needed it, but I stay to myself and I ultimately put members of my "tribe" first before any stranger.

With that being said, it take a rare and an exceptional and highly special individual to be able to care about any person as much as their own friends and family. Just because somebody isn't like you described doesn't make them any less of a man or woman the same way that not being a professional MMA fighter or boxer doesn't mean that I can't hold my own in a fight or not being the CEO of a fortune 500 tech company doesn't mean that I don't know my way around a computer.

[s4ndm4n2006]

I will be completely honest, and as a male, I am quite offended by the generalizations made by the OP. To be quite honest, I would say, find a different group of people because clearly your view of men and even women is skewed, by my perspective at least.

I'm not a young guy and just turned 48. In my entire life, I have not cheated or considered cheating to be anything to be defended or done. Quite honestly I find it appalling that you know as many men as you do that have the attitude you state here. I am not questioning that you've come across this, but I am saying my experience with men and women alike is quite different.

I do not know a single male that not only has cheated but does it openly! I have not known any guy in my life, friend or not that would go to such lengths as to defend themselves or another at all, but again this is my experience in life and what I've seen. Granted I've seen skewed perspectives on cheating but I will add that I would not judge at all that it is the male typically or female but the same on both sides. men or women that find cheating to be a defensible action have messed up values and morals, period.

Again I am a little offended that men here are singled out as if 'we' generally as a whole have some kind of open attitude toward this and find that it is ok to do. I don't think it's true but I do believe that the ones that do think this way are loud about it and proud so they are going to be more noticed. men that are faithful and monogamous are not out there making this known. They go about in their relationships normally and quietly because it's the way to be and nothing to be bragged about.

I'm sorry you've experienced such sH*tty men in your life that are this way but I wholeheartedly believe if you look hard enough you'll see the ones that are good ones, whether you're involved with them or just friends, there are good men out there that believe women are treasured by them and they think highly of them, believe in faithfulness and having integrity.

[divine1966]

Originally Posted by DarknessIsMyFriend

I didn't want to get personal in this thread, but your comment invoked a response from me. I also might be able to better help the OP understand why some people think differently on this subject so here goes nothing.

I disagree with the notion that "real men" look out for everyone and here's why:

Unless you're a police officer or are in the military or you live in a small village or tribal community where needing to protect others is important to your own survival, it isn't your job nor your responsibility to protect everybody.

To me, a "real man" is somebody who possesses both the strength and courage to defend whatever or whoever he holds dear no matter what. Most of us live in medium to large sized cities where we don't need to rely on those around us for survival, therefore, there is nothing wrong with not caring about every person in ones community.

Humans, like virtually every other living organism, are selfish in nature and are genetically programmed to care only about surviving and procreating. While we, as humans possess superior intelligence and can thus, navigate away from our primitive biological directive to some extent, not doing so doesn't make anybody less of a man or woman.

While I don't defend or justify cheaters myself, beings that the only people that I owe any loyalty to and the only people that I would consider risking my life to protect are my family and friends, if one of my friends or family members cheated on their spouse, unless I was also friends with the spouse or I had a really good reason to, I would keep and defend their secret (regardless if said friend was male or female) out of loyalty and respect for the friendship or relationship. I have a hard enough time as it is opening up to people and making friends who I can trust, so I make it a priority to keep what few friendships and relationships that I have at any cost. I consider my friends and family my "tribe" or "community" if you will and I seek to defend it at any cost.

I don't needlessly hurt people by any means and I even would help a stranger if they needed it, but I stay to myself and I ultimately put members of my "tribe" first before any stranger.

With that being said, it take a rare and an exceptional and highly special individual to be able to care about any person as much as their own friends and family. Just because somebody isn't like you described doesn't make them any less of a man or woman the same way that not being a professional MMA fighter or boxer doesn't mean that I can't hold my own in a fight or not being the CEO of a fortune 500 tech company doesn't mean that I don't know my way around a computer.

I don't think he meant that real men go on the streets and fight criminals. By protecting I doubt he meant go boxing but rather make sure your family is safe. Screwing around makes ones life unsafe emotionally and health wise. I think you understood it too literally


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