[Dpinlp08]

3 years ago I lost my Father in Law to cancer and since have been trying to help my mother in laws grieving process. We have tried many methods in helping, but have always been met with the same disrespectful attitudes and constant victim playing role. When confronting her about these situations, she blames her children for ganging up and attacking her. As the son in law, i was easily able to remove her from my life and just no talk to her anymore. But as for my wife, i sat back and watched her mental wear herself out on a constant basis trying to save what relationship she could with her. This included nights of crying and angry venting to me. I hate to see my wife go through the constant issues with her mother, and am reaching out to see if there are any techniques or personal experiences that could help this situation?
Background for the past 3 years:
We started off after the passing coming over every weekend and trying to help cope with the issues, but were met with wanting to be alone and grieve. So we did, came over once a month and made her dinner. After the first year, the fighting between mother or daughter began to become a regular basis and when i started to tell my wife that is was unhealthy to continue in that way. We got married that year and went on a week honeymoon out of country, when we returned we call MIL and wanted to tell her about our trip, we were met with "I ate all of your anniversary cake while y'all were gone and I’m not that mad about it, **** happens" upset mother and daughter had some choice words and ended with MIL saying "Y'all don't have to talk to me anymore, i don't care" - this was the first time i stepped in and told them that if they couldn't respect each other and talk civil, then they shouldn't talk at all. Then, I became attacker in her mind and how could I take to someone grieving that way?? A few months went by and began the nights or crying and angry venting towards me from my wife. We were able to become civil around each other and meet for dinners, but nothing was ever really solved.
Year two – Mostly the same, I took a back seat and stay out of the line of fire. This year, MIL had a daughter returning home from out of state (military husband and 2 kids). Plan was for them to move back into mom’s house and save money until out of state house sold / helps MIL around house to get back into shape. My wife and I went to MIL house to help get house ready for the family and kids arrival and were astonished with them condition of the house. Dog and cat urine and the amount of trash were unbearable to even walk in. When talking to her about this with her, we became the attackers and we were making up stuff so that she would not be able to see her grandchildren? Group text between all members, quickly became where we were all attacking her and giving her the excuse to be rude and disrespectful towards her daughters. This is the second time I chimed in and informed her, that if she was going to be disrespectful to her daughters than we would not talk to her anymore. A couple months later sister in law and family moves in with us stays for a month or so. They talk to MIL, but only see each other once they whole time. *MIL lives 5 mins away* I cut off all communications to her (face book, cell, dinners) my wife is starting to see the patterns and is starting too distant herself and shorten phone calls.
Year three: (this year) we get pregnant and have a baby on the way. My wife starts trying to repair the relationship with her mother so that she can be there when baby is born and so forth. MIL starts adventuring out of the house with friends and starting to date other men. Trying to keep it hush hush and get angry when wife talks about it. She gets arrested one night for PI at 3AM and my wife and I have to pick up the car so that it doesn’t get impounded. We start laying out plans for baby arrival, and as her and I am not talking, we inform MIL that when baby come she can be at the hospital, but cannot be in the delivery room with us. This is of course an attack on her and starts up a couple of weeks of fighting between my wife and her. So we inform her she needs to get counseling before she will be allowed around my child, or even come to the hospital.
1 Month before baby arrival: (last night) MIL shows up to house unannounced and wants to talk, we have civil conversation while waiting on wife to get home from work (15-20 mins) then we go to dinner at a restaurant down the road. She informs us she has gone to counseling 3 times and she is trying to change for the better. She mentions that she doesn’t really see the point of it, but is sticking with it. My wife starts the conversation by saying that she and I are very opinionated, and that talking about the issues we have with solve our problems. I tell her that it has always been the same issue for me, that the level of respect that she and her daughters needs to be better. It is understandable to have an argument every once in a while, but every other day, once a week, once a month is really too much. Instantly the she begins to cry and say that I am trying to keep her daughter away from her. My wife tells her that they do not have the relationship they once had because of the way that she treats them, and that she is excited for the days that she can say that they actually had a civil conversation on the phone without fighting, and that is just sad. Then MIL falls back on the grieving and that she is just so sad all the time that must be the reason she is disrespectful to her all the time. I inform her that that is not an excuse and that grieving does not insist of going out partying all night and running around on dates. Feed up we end the dinner and head back home she leaves….

So I understand she did make the effort to come by the house and try to make amends. In my mind, I think she was just trying to come over and sweep everything under the rug so she can be there upon baby arrival. I don’t see that happening now. I know my wife won’t give up on her mother, and I’m not asking her too. I just think she may be enabling her mother actions by trying to calm her after any disagreements with her. Not sure if trying to salvage a relationship is worth it or if I should try to convince my wife to let MIL be until she can move on from this pattern she is in. or maybe we are just “bad kids” and are not seeing the grieving process as it is?

Sorry for the length, but figured more information was needed.
Any similar situations with positive outcomes?

[brainy]

Well, I'm certainly not a counselor of course, but I do think that your MIL needs some serious help outside of what you and your wife can give her. She has to really stick with it too.
On the other hand, she sounds, to me (note above as in I'm not a counselor), she sounds like she's a manipulator, with some narcissistic traits. In other words...selfish. Yes, grief can make you unlike yourself, but oh please!
My main concern at this moment is the baby. He or she does not need to be in MIL's environment. As a matter of fact, I think that you should make sure that the baby is not in her environment. Also, did you know that a mother's emotions can and does affect the baby in utero? Yes it does! That means then, at least until the baby's born, your wife needs to curtail visits with her mother, even if it must for the sake of the baby.
Finally, but definitely not least, you are commended for being the man in the family!!! There are some less a man men who woulda given up a long time ago. BRAVO to you!!!

[unaluna]

I think you should stop delivering ultimatums and just try to be more helpful. Nobody likes a bossypants son in law.

[brainy]

Oh and in addition, though not married your post, as I'm reading it, kinda, just a little, reminded me of my man's mother. What a piece of work! A hot mess!
They went away Labor Day wkend. So I called her to check on her, and to see if she went, and how the trip turned out.
She seemed nice. She told me she went and had a good time. I was glad for her.
But I had determined beforehand that I would not mention him, and if she did i would very sternly let her know that this conversation is not about him. She did llightly mention his name only and I was ready! But that was it, nothing more.
Our conversation, to me, seemed like all went well. Until we hung up. BAM!...the phone went.
Oh well. I have a feeling that was because when I called him, what, a couple days before they left (?), he answered, and told me his mother, grown daughter, and her children were there, yet he still conversed with me, momma probably, as in might, wanted to know who he was talking to, either he didn't tell her or if he did momma didn't like it.
Oh well. He's a grown man. And she's a grown woman too. So she really needs to act like it and one way is by minding her own business!
My children are grown, the youngest 29. I mind my business.

[Dpinlp08]

[QUOTE=brainy;5275286]"My main concern at this moment is the baby. He or she does not need to be in MIL's environment. As a matter of fact, I think that you should make sure that the baby is not in her environment"
Mine as well, my child will not be put in that situation.

'Also, did you know that a mother's emotions can and does affect the baby in utero? Yes it does! That means then, at least until the baby's born, your wife needs to curtail visits with her mother, even if it must for the sake of the baby"
I did not know this, i knew stress could be a big deal and have told my wife the same. After the last dinner, i dont think we will be seeing her till after the baby...

[Dpinlp08]

Originally Posted by unaluna

I think you should stop delivering ultimatums and just try to be more helpful. Nobody likes a bossy pants son in law.

That why i am here, i have tried different things, but nothing has helped. Any opinions would be greatly appreciated?

[brainy]

Unaluna. Hi.
I really don't think, nor believe he's being a "bossypants." It's not like he's a boyfriend or something, and even then it all depends on the relationship with the family.
He's seriously concerned about his MIL, more so actually, for his wife and baby as he should be.

[Dpinlp08]

Yeah, i think it could have been a control thing too, were she saw her daughter change her priorities from her to me? Jealousy and trying to be manipulative. just needed and outside perspective so i don't seem like a bossy pants SIL
Thank you!

[Fuzzybear]

[Michelea]

Think the key word here is pattern. When something has been a set pattern for this long, it can take an actual action to break it.

If you guys are out together and a fight starts, just get up and leave. If she is at your house, make her leave.

Explain it beforehand as a team effort to improve things...that if either she or your wife start falling into the persistent habit of arguing with each other, this time together would end immediately. No ifs, ands, or buts....this time is over.

This did work for a relationship I was in, although the pattern had not lasted years long...more like a couple of weeks. We never did need to end an outing, but we did go into separate rooms a few times.

Unless she just refuses to try, and sincerely try, I wouldn't ban her from the birth of the baby.

[Dpinlp08]

Originally Posted by Michelea

Think the key word here is pattern. When something has been a set pattern for this long, it can take an actual action to break it.

If you guys are out together and a fight starts, just get up and leave. If she is at your house, make her leave.

Explain it beforehand as a team effort to improve things...that if either she or your wife start falling into the persistent habit of arguing with each other, this time together would end immediately. No ifs, ands, or buts....this time is over.

This did work for a relationship I was in, although the pattern had not lasted years long...more like a couple of weeks. We never did need to end an outing, but we did go into separate rooms a few time.

Unless she just refuses to try, and sincerely try, I wouldn't ban her from the birth of the baby.

Yes i think you are right, i hoped and stay positive that things would change but no luck. i think now it is time to move on with our life and remove the negativity in our life.

[Michelea]

Yes, remove the negativity to have a happier relationship with mother/MIL. All three of you have been in this pattern for a long time, so all will need to work on breaking old habits.

[Rose76]

Your MIL's main issue is not grief over the loss of her husband. The squalor you described that she tends to live in (animal excrement and accumulated trash) indicates difficulty coping with life and possibly some mental health impairment. It may be that her husband, when he was alive, helped mask her problem of not adequately coping with life by taking care of a lot of things, including her. Now she's on her own, and just keeping up her home is proving to be beyond her. This lady sounds psychologically damaged and, at this point in time, that probably results in behavior patterns that she doesn't even have a lot of control over. She's not going to change.

My point here is that you, if you view your MIL as someone who is not playing with anything near a full deck, can reset your expectations. As a daughter, your wife sort of can't see the forest through the trees, so to speak. She has spent her whole life hoping for her mom to be what a mom should be. She may lack the objectivity to see that her mother lacks the capacity to be anything other than what she is. So they probably have the same pointless verbal exchanges over and over. You're in a position, as a more objective bystander, to see the futility of what goes on between them.

The phrase, "between them," is very important. Some of this stuff you've got to just leave alone as their business . . . and not yours. Sometimes the best thing you can do is to stay out of it. Still, you can't have your wife's time, attention and energies being unfairly consumed by a chaotic relationship with a mother whose life is - and may always be - a mess. Here's where you need to muster up all the finesse and diplomacy you possess. You need to discourage your wife from being over-involved in trying to solve her mother's problems. You need to do this when the two of you are alone together, not in front of your MIL.

As time roles on, the right course of action depends a lot on your MIL's age. If she were 75 y.o., I would say she probably needs to sell that house and go live in an assisted living facility. If she's more like 60 y.o., then that's not going to happen. A lot also depends on how well your wife and her siblings can collaborate with each other in figuring out how they, as her children, can best be supportive of Mom. She's their mother - and not yours - and you kind of have to leave them to it.

[brainy]

After all is said and done, and while you're sincerely trying to look out for MIL, the bottom line here is who your priorities are, need to be, should be.
And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. Your UTMOST priority is your family. YOUR WIFE, AND BABY!!
That's it!! NO ONE ELSE outside of yourself. NO ONE!!! How far should you take this?
(ok, I'm not good at illustrations but you're get it as you read):

If you, your MIL, your wife and baby were on a boat, it looks like it will capsize or something, but you can only save two people, not including yourself, who would it be? No, as you're reading this, and actually as I'm writing this, I can't imagine such an emotional momeny. Yet, who-would-it-be?
YOUR WIFE, AND YOUR BABY! THEY are your immediate concern!!!! No one else!

[Rose76]

Originally Posted by Dpinlp08

Yes i think you are right, i hoped and stay positive that things would change but no luck. i think now it is time to move on with our life and remove the negativity in our life.

While even the Bible says that two people who are married "become as one" - and I strongly agree with that - there is a sense in which you remain individuals and need to stay out of each other's business. Handling a parent remains the business of that parent's son or daughter, not the business of the SIL or DIL.

You sound to me like a basically good natured guy who's trying to be a positive influence on an unfortunate situation. But there's something else I'm reading between the lines. Your wife has boundary problems. She grew up with a mother who was manipulative, intrusive and probably domineering. Your wife never succeeded fully in becoming her own person because her mom wouldn't let her. Her mom didn't give her the emotional room to appropriately detach herself from parental interference. (Probably because her mom feared abandonment.) Now your wife is letting you do the same thing her mother did.

Your wife would prefer for this to be a conflict between you and her mother than between her and her mother. She never learned how to handle her mother, so there is this big void - and you are stepping into it. Big mistake!

It would be far healthier, if your wife were to say, "Thanks for trying to help, Hubby, but she's my mother, and I'll handle her." She won't say that because she lacks the confidence. Your best role is to help your wife grow into a more confident woman. She'll end up being a better wife to you and a better mom to new baby. Even though your wife has angrily vented to you regarding her mom, secretly she wants you to stand between her and her mother. Step out of that space . . . step out of it. The, for the first time in her life, your wife will have the "room" and opportunity to figure things out for herself. At first, she's not going to like that. It will feel too unfamiliar to her. But you need to hang back and let her wrestle with Mom on her own. Fight the huge temptation to jump into the middle between them. That would be you treating her like a child. Let her grow up.

That doesn't mean you do nothing. Your job is to keep the bar up, in terms of what you have a right to expect as a husband. As A Husband. Whether or not MIL and wife can speak civilly to each other is their problem and not for you to make pronouncements on. But you have a right to choose not to be in the middle of strife and craziness. You have no obligation to meet up with MIL for dinner, if it does nothing but upset your digestion. Stay home. Let wife go spend time with mom by herself. I'm assuming your wife is capable of leaving the house without you.

If MIL comes to visit and is obnoxious, say you need to go check on something and go for a long drive, leaving the two of them to deal with each other. It's okay, since you live there, to limit how much time your MIL can spend hanging around. Do that, not by tellin your MIL when it's time for her to go. Do that by privately telling your wife, "Honey, I need your mom to get going because I've had about as much of her as I can stand." Then expect your wife to set a limit. As a husband, you have a right to have expectations as to how much craziness your wife is going to let her side of the family inflict on you. If it's too much, your beef is with your wife - not with her family, or any member of it. That's how you can be a strong man.

If wife comes home and says, "What on earth am I going to do about Mom?" - don't be so quick to answer. Say, "I don't know, Honey. It's a tough situation, but you're a smart lady, so I know you'll decide what's best." Show her that you believe in her. Don't keep doing to her what her mom did to her all her life - even though your wife kind of expects you to do just that. Handling her mom is her job and she needs to figure it out. If she asks for suggestions, when the two of you are alone with each other, you can gently make a suggestion or two. But leave the ball in her court.

[brainy]

Rose 76. VERY nice advice there! Indeed! Bravo!

[Dpinlp08]

Originally Posted by Rose76

While even the Bible says that two people who are married "become as one" - and I strongly agree with that - there is a sense in which you remain individuals and need to stay out of each other's business. Handling a parent remains the business of that parent's son or daughter, not the business of the SIL or DIL.

You sound to me like a basically good natured guy who's trying to be a positive influence on an unfortunate situation. But there's something else I'm reading between the lines. Your wife has boundary problems. She grew up with a mother who was manipulative, intrusive and probably domineering. Your wife never succeeded fully in becoming her own person because her mom wouldn't let her. Her mom didn't give her the emotional room to appropriately detach herself from parental interference. (Probably because her mom feared abandonment.) Now your wife is letting you do the same thing her mother did.

Your wife would prefer for this to be a conflict between you and her mother than between her and her mother. She never learned how to handle her mother, so there is this big void - and you are stepping into it. Big mistake!

It would be far healthier, if your wife were to say, "Thanks for trying to help, Hubby, but she's my mother, and I'll handle her." She won't say that because she lacks the confidence. Your best role is to help your wife grow into a more confident woman. She'll end up being a better wife to you and a better mom to new baby. Even though your wife has angrily vented to you regarding her mom, secretly she wants you to stand between her and her mother. Step out of that space . . . step out of it. The, for the first time in her life, your wife will have the "room" and opportunity to figure things out for herself. At first, she's not going to like that. It will feel too unfamiliar to her. But you need to hang back and let her wrestle with Mom on her own. Fight the huge temptation to jump into the middle between them. That would be you treating her like a child. Let her grow up.

That doesn't mean you do nothing. Your job is to keep the bar up, in terms of what you have a right to expect as a husband. As A Husband. Whether or not MIL and wife can speak civilly to each other is their problem and not for you to make pronouncements on. But you have a right to choose not to be in the middle of strife and craziness. You have no obligation to meet up with MIL for dinner, if it does nothing but upset your digestion. Stay home. Let wife go spend time with mom by herself. I'm assuming your wife is capable of leaving the house without you.

If MIL comes to visit and is obnoxious, say you need to go check on something and go for a long drive, leaving the two of them to deal with each other. It's okay, since you live there, to limit how much time your MIL can spend hanging around. Do that, not by tellin your MIL when it's time for her to go. Do that by privately telling your wife, "Honey, I need your mom to get going because I've had about as much of her as I can stand." Then expect your wife to set a limit. As a husband, you have a right to have expectations as to how much craziness your wife is going to let her side of the family inflict on you. If it's too much, your beef is with your wife - not with her family, or any member of it. That's how you can be a strong man.

If wife comes home and says, "What on earth am I going to do about Mom?" - don't be so quick to answer. Say, "I don't know, Honey. It's a tough situation, but you're a smart lady, so I know you'll decide what's best." Show her that you believe in her. Don't keep doing to her what her mom did to her all her life - even though your wife kind of expects you to do just that. Handling her mom is her job and she needs to figure it out. If she asks for suggestions, when the two of you are alone with each other, you can gently make a suggestion or two. But leave the ball in her court.

I think you are absolutely right on everything! Thank you for your insight, this clears my mind on a lot of things.