So you do treatment. You listen to every single word that comes out of your therapist’s mouth as if your life depended on it. You open up. You get the answers. You understand what’s real and why you are the way you are. You manage your bad habits. You start to feel. You find peace…. yet it’s nothing there… trust, honesty, sympathy, love… Never had it. I just don’t buy it. Maybe some people are meant to be evil, what a shame… Just thinking out loud. Have a good one, folks!

[Open Eyes]

Have you told this to your therapist?

[Molinit]

Again, if your doctor or therapist has diagnosed you as a narcissist, it is very difficult to learn new behaviors. How many years have you been in therapy and is it DBT? Cognitive behavior therapy is not effective. You should also be in a DBT group therapy as well as individual therapy.

If you are expecting your narcissism (if it has been truly diagnosed and not a self-diagnosis) to be "cured" that will never happen. You can learn ways in DBT of mitigating the damage you do to others that might enable you to have 2-way fulfilling relationships after a LONG time of being in therapy. Not just months.

In that vein, if you are expecting others who have known you to suddenly see changes in you or treat you differently, that won't happen for years because if you have damaged them in the past they will always have that mistrust in you, that you will eventually say or do something that is self-serving or designed to hurt them in some way.

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

Have you told this to your therapist?

I will this week.

Originally Posted by Molinit

How many years have you been in therapy and is it DBT?

4 years DBT.

Originally Posted by Molinit

You can learn ways in DBT of mitigating the damage you do to others that might enable you to have 2-way fulfilling relationships

I don't hurt anybody anymore, I pay close attention to what I say and do. The problem is that I don't feel any real emotions when it comes to relatively "happy" relationships. No trust, sympathy, or love. The only positive vibe I get is when I surprise someone with quality and they give me admiration (we both know it's not a progress).

Originally Posted by Molinit

In that vein, if you are expecting others who have known you to suddenly see changes in you or treat you differently, that won't happen for years because if you have damaged them in the past

I discarded everyone I knew from before the theraphy. They didn't like me anyway, it's for their own sake. I'm talking about new people who, I believe, think highly of me as of this moment. I worked for it and I kinda liked it but I just just don't feel it.

[Molinit]

You still sound very entrenched in your ingrained pattern of behavior (discarding people you knew before and adopting a new group of people you are cultivating who currently think highly of you). If they think highly of you, what do you feel about them? It's a 2-way street.

In other words it still sounds like you are having superficial relationships that are designed to give you something you need and they aren't really reciprocal. Exploring why that is might be useful or perhaps you may be one of the people who just can't make much progress. That's a valid question to ask your therapist - how much progress does the therapist think you've made and how long will it take if you work very hard to get to the goal you want to reach?

Originally Posted by Molinit

In other words it still sounds like you are having superficial relationships that are designed to give you something you need and they aren't really reciprocal.

Well, it shouldn't surprise you. I mean after all you are the one who said that the goal for people like me would be to "mitigate the damage you do".. .and that's what I'm doing.

I have no idea what I feel about them. I can tell you that I like the fact they like me and I put in effort to give them whatever they need in return. I like the fact that they accept me though I don't trust them for a second. I pretty much wait for them to question my worth or hit me directly.

[Open Eyes]

People often are what they know, so with that said how could you feel and know trust and love and caring if you never experienced it.

The narcissist never grew out of how everything revolved around them. They never developed compassion for others except when it served them in some way. At the core of a narcissist is a crying child who did not get his/her needs met in some way. The fact that you anticipate others questioning your worth speaks volumes. It's not a matter of if with you but when. Everyone has some narcissism, it's part of human survival and how human's thrive, but, someone who is leaning to being too narcissistic is someone who typically got deeply injured and ends of self protecting in unhealthy ways.

[MickeyCheeky]

i don't think You're evil though i can't know in detail what happened in your Life. it is REALLY Good that You are working out with Your Therapist. Keep trying Your best! SEnding many safe, warm hugs to BOTH You, @MisterPaul, Your Family, Your FriEnds and ALL of Your Loved Ones! Keep fighting and keep rocking NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, OK?!

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

People often are what they know, so with that said how could you feel and know trust and love and caring if you never experienced it.

The narcissist never grew out of how everything revolved around them. They never developed compassion for others except when it served them in some way. At the core of a narcissist is a crying child who did not get his/her needs met in some way. The fact that you anticipate others questioning your worth speaks volumes. It's not a matter of if with you but when. Everyone has some narcissism, it's part of human survival and how human's thrive, but, someone who is leaning to being too narcissistic is someone who typically got deeply injured and ends of self protecting in unhealthy ways.

It's not the first time you prove me that you know the exact taste of what I'm dealing with. May I ask what would YOU do if you were in my shoes right now? I don't have a time machine to change the course of the past and, as you said, those emotions I can't understand... they were never there.

[Open Eyes]

Well what’s hard when it comes to a narcissist is how they formed patterns to self protect. Narcissism exists in everyone and everyone develops ways to self protect. Typically narcissists crave power and control. This is desired to protect that insecure child in them. To genuinely love and care about others it tends to make them feel uneasy more so than the average person. Much of what they do is self serving. This is how they get the reputation of being the bad guy.

They can end up in leadership roles because if in their effort to make gains for self benefits a business or others they stay the leader regardless of the fact that they are narcissists. They are often not without talents

It’s possible you may never care or love normally. It may be that all you may learn is damage control.

[Molinit]

I think you need to have a discussion with your therapist on why your encounters with people are so transactional and why you either are unaware of your own feelings toward others or whether you are simply incapable of having real feelings toward other people.

At more than 4 years out, your therapist should have some ability to tell you what their impression is and if you are simply incapable of more progress it would be nice for you to know that so you're not wasting money and time with endless therapy that will go nowhere.

Originally Posted by Molinit

At more than 4 years out, your therapist should have some ability to tell you what their impression is and if you are simply incapable of more progress it would be nice for you to know that so you're not wasting money and time with endless therapy that will go nowhere.

That's harsh but neccesary. I'll ask. Hopefully you're wrong though. Having sociopathic-like relationships is a recipe for a total disaster.

[Molinit]

It could also be that this therapist isn't the right one for you. Ask the question and if the answer doesn't feel right for the amount of time you have invested with them, then I might look for another therapist.

It might also not be narcissism. People on the autism spectrum are often mistaken for being narcissists. Has anyone ever asked if you might have autism (old days it was called Asperger's) or does anyone in your family have it?

Originally Posted by Molinit

It could also be that this therapist isn't the right one for you. Ask the question and if the answer doesn't feel right for the amount of time you have invested with them, then I might look for another therapist.

It might also not be narcissism. People on the autism spectrum are often mistaken for being narcissists. Has anyone ever asked if you might have autism (old days it was called Asperger's) or does anyone in your family have it?

No, no, and no. I was half-man when I first time met my therapist. She gave me a lot and I'd even say she changed me life... for the better.

I know how to talk to people and I've always been great at public speaking, so Asperger doesn't fit... Furthermore, as far as I know, Aspies feel lost in social situations, I'm more of manipulative scumbag with no moral spine kind of guy.

My father had some narcissistic traits. He was very impulsive and you had to tread lightly 24/7 if you wanted to stick with him.

My therapist basically told me that I show some strong traits of NPD with significant amount of APD characteristics when I'm in distress. I work on managing it and it's working for me and for people around me. I am capable of understanding particular situations in rational way. I know how to voice my feelings most of the time... I had to learn how to do it ofc.

The problem is that I can't really believe that I could let someone come closer and be okay/comfortable with that state when he/she could easily hit me right in the face (not literally ofc). I can't even picture such situation.

[Open Eyes]

My father had some narcissistic traits. He was very impulsive and you had to tread lightly 24/7 if you wanted to stick with him.

Your father was most likely transactual with you then. It's reasonable that you had been imprinted with these behavior patterns. Plus you also have some deep narcissistic injuries. With some narcissists, they tend to hide that crying child in themselves. If no one provided comfort then that would be something that would create too much vulnerablity to experience. Yet, at the same time have difficulty providing as well because there is no imprinting where that was present and sustained to tap onto.

Too much ego gets in the way, there is no true relaxation of the ego. Instead it's always hungry and often needy.

I did have the discussion with my therapist and yeah, it's over. I'm cured when it comes to fears and dysfunctional behaviors. She suggested that maybe I'm better off alone, since I do not show any need for someone to be beside me.

And yeah, it may be it. I don't need anybody to help me or to support me or to care for me. I win anyways. And I'm not saying that with anger, it's the truth.

Interesting and a little bit sad at the same time as I think about it now.

[Molinit]

I think the therapist means that if the lack of a romantic or other relationship really doesn't bother you, then you will see no need or have any motivation to make the deep changes needed to have those relationships. When the lack of something doesn't hurt, there is no need to make those changes.

Originally Posted by Molinit

I think the therapist means that if the lack of a romantic or other relationship really doesn't bother you, then you will see no need or have any motivation to make the deep changes needed to have those relationships. When the lack of something doesn't hurt, there is no need to make those changes.

Yes, you are right. But it's not like it doesn't bother me. I'm just okay with whatever. I don't need anybody since I've been fighting alone for a very long time and I did well. I enjoy social situations a lot but there is no attachment or anything like it. Still figuring out how to approach this.

[divine1966]

I think it’s healthy to not need anybody but rather enjoy good company and partnership when you do have it.

Nothing good comes out of “needing” a partner: either in order to feel secure or in order for someone pay your bills or in order to fit into preconceived notion of people needing a relationship etc These relationships based on “need” are never ever healthy. So not needing someone is perfectly fine,

having said that, it’s also very human to want a companionship and enjoy what good partnership can bring into your life. Certain things could be more fun and more enjoyable with a partner etc Also raising kids with a good partner is good. Emphasis is on good partner and good relationship.

Too many people are in miserable relationships because they need to depend on someone or someone told them that’s how things need to be. So don’t worry that you must be in a relationship. No such thing

[Molinit]

Originally Posted by MisterPaul

Yes, you are right. But it's not like it doesn't bother me. I'm just okay with whatever. I don't need anybody since I've been fighting alone for a very long time and I did well. I enjoy social situations a lot but there is no attachment or anything like it. Still figuring out how to approach this.

You sound like it's more of a bother to you than anything. It's possible to have a social life and "no attachment" to people and if that's what you want, then you're good.

In all your posts, I feel like you are only questioning your lack of deep relationships because you're trying to fit into some kind of "normal" you see others as having. But if you feel no real lack, then why try to be someone you aren't?

[mountainstream]

[Have Hope]

Originally Posted by MisterPaul

So you do treatment. You listen to every single word that comes out of your therapist’s mouth as if your life depended on it. You open up. You get the answers. You understand what’s real and why you are the way you are. You manage your bad habits. You start to feel. You find peace…. yet it’s nothing there… trust, honesty, sympathy, love… Never had it. I just don’t buy it. Maybe some people are meant to be evil, what a shame… Just thinking out loud. Have a good one, folks!

Trust, honesty, sympathy and love all can be developed, and I believe, as an adult.

People who want to change and grow, can..... I do believe in people fulfilling their full potential. It can take work to develop these traits.

A step can involve placing yourself in the other person's shoes, and imagining what they are going through, as something happening to YOU. That's not sympathy, but it's empathy. Doing so, enables one to start to feel something emotionally, if imagined as happening to yourself. This enables you to be able to relate to someone on a more emotional level.

Trust involves being honest yourself with people you interact with, and expecting honesty in return. It's a two-way street.

And love can be boundless - I love my friends for the loving, generous and kind people that they are, as an example. I love who they are... I love watching them dance and be in their element when we go out for music. It's amazing to love your friends for all that they represent and are. Love can be platonic.... and romantic of course.

And sympathy is simply being able to extend oneself in a heart-feeling moment towards another who is in pain.

So. these traits can all be developed in my opinion. It will take therapy and practice.... but one can change how one is if one allows their heart to grow wider and to be a bit vulnerable.

And that may also require some healing of the heart too. For a wounded heart is one that protects itself through various defense mechanisms, narcissism being one.

[Prycejosh1987]

This is because therapists can only give insights and advice, the change starts and ends with you, and you alone.