[NatalieJastrow]

So I have been watching this you tube channel of a 37 year old who is basically just trying to break down her life as a single woman. And through that she is very good really breaking down events in her life.

I am not going to say she is ugly but she is a black woman and she is very good about putting up statistics about black women having it rougher.

She talks about things like pretty privilege and about things that I know are true in a very high brow way.

I happen to be someone who doesn't like to ever think that people behave a certain way toward you because of how you look. I think that is my prejudice because I tend to react differently to looks from most people. Typically being able to see past their looks. Thus when people are crappy to me I always go back and try to figure out what I did, or didn't do, and most of the time I walk around confused and upset. Never thinking people make decisions on my looks.

But I never consider my looks or dress as causing tension... but after listening to her wise statements that I know to be true... i am considering it.

One of her pearls is that men do not want to be friends with women that they don't find attractive. And even Billy Crystal said it, men and women can't be friends. And I find this translating over to my workplace. All the male bosses in my workplace my relationships always break down. They always admit I am a good employee and I get good reviews.. but the relationship always seems to sour. And I search around for why they treat me this way, looking for actions.. not looks. I never have a chance for a job when the man is making the decision.

I also see this at work with regard to women... many women who aren't "attractive" are treated very horribly. Some of my friends who wren't lookers have been fired from their job when they met up with the wrong manager who seemed to hate them irrationally -- but probably admitted they did a good job. Most of the time they it would be written down to a personality conflict.

And now it seems to have happened in my personal life, my brother, BROTHER.. seems to want to end the relationship. Why, why would anyone do that? Well one factor I know was a big issue for him was that I wasn't married with kids... so to me that is why would that make a difference. But this you tuber talks logically about how women do "up the value of a man" by being pretty or by being a winner etc. And perhaps he sees a relationship or lack of as something that reflects badly on him.

I often seem people on this board and on the internet wondering why people treat them so bad and, wondering, now, if it is something is simple as looks. And, if so, should we really be trying to fix that issue?

As i mentioned I personally have my looks meter very much the opposite of everyone else.. but, now I am wondering if fixing that issue will improve my life even though it is hard to believe.

[divine1966]

I honestly don’t think so. Ton of not objectively good looking people (I don’t want to say unattractive because it’s subjective) are very happy in personal life and are successful professionally. And ton of good looking people aren’t happy or successful at all.

As about men and women being friends I don’t see it as looks issue. Some people simply avoid it for number of reasons (too many temptations, spouses might have s problem with it, some society pressures etc).

I have some more thoughts and examples on that but have to rush so possibly more later

I mean in some ways being attractive does help to some degree: easier to get a date for example or get a job where you need to look certain way like acting or modeling.

But in a long scheme of things I just don’t see the correlation. I know a lot of people and lived on two continents and I simply don’t see much of a correlation between looks and long term success or happiness

Define attractive. Honestly one person's "not for me" can totally be another person's "can't get enough of."

I have heard of pretty privilege but not to that extreme. If everyone in the whole world is that shallow (and I don't believe that's true), we're going to hell in a handbasket.

Maybe talking to a counselor could help you figure out where all the breakdown and conflict in your relationships is coming from? Just a thought.

[bpforever1]

I think appearances are important to some extent. But, it is not about being pretty but being well-kempt and neat about one's appearance. I think pretty women have an easier time in certain situations but it is not an end-all-be-all for every situation. I am considered attractive for my age and am grateful for looking young. But, I don't think it necessarily has been easier given the fact I was abused by my family and have a lot of emotional garbage. I also have an illness and disability. But, people are nicer to me when I look attractive - ie at stores, restaurants, for jobs- appearances do matter. However, when people start seeing me as a person, then what matters most are my abilities and personality. I think appearances may open doors to some extent. But, at the same time, people think I'm vapid and superficial. I am not. So, it is a two-way street, if people consider you attractive, they don't think you have much substance while if you are unattractive to others, some people may not be nice to you initially. I have not always been attractive all of my life so know when people treat me differently based on my appearance. I think attractiveness again is not about being pretty but being neat and well-kempt in one's appearance. Of course, if you are also great looking then it is an added bonus but it will not define your life's worth. People will see you beyond your appearances eventually then judge you based on your value- abilities and character.

[poshgirl]

This is a complicated subject!

Attraction shouldn't be solely about looks but often is. Especially these days where social media has a lot to answer for. Why should someone who is considered pretty or good looking be vilified because they have the wrong shaped chin or nose?

I still can't work out (at 60+) why some great looking men have a plain female partner. Works the other way too, a gorgeous woman with an average guy. Perhaps the attraction is hidden (I'm not being crude here), a scintillating personality or kindness.

Attraction is mystifying

[Discombobulated]

I think it’s possible that being considered good looking by many people may lead to high self confidence, that would explain how someone might get ahead in a workplace.

It’s not been my experience at all that good looks mean someone is treated more favourably by management (is that what you were meaning?) in my workplace (past and present) ability and attitude are what gets a person ahead. What you describe sounds like a toxic workplace, if it the case that people are favoured by their appearance.

[NatalieJastrow]

Originally Posted by Discombobulated

in my workplace (past and present) ability and attitude are what gets a person ahead. What you describe sounds like a toxic workplace, if it the case that people are favoured by their appearance.

My workplace is absolutely NOT a workplace that promotes by merit. At all. That is why it is so crazy. I mean people have degrees that should (by rights) put them in the top positions but these people are all at the bottom. While the less talented people are at the top.

Of course, some of these people may be "connected" or they are at the top for reasons like they are handicapped and they fit a quota... but if you look at management row they are all "good looking". While people in the lower positions are just ok looking or very ugly.

Sometimes when you have examined your actions, your credentials and come up lost as to why people don't treat you better --it is time to maybe consider looks and maybe that is why people treat you horrible and you really don't know why or how to fix it? Would looking better cause less awful treatment?

[divine1966]

Looking better doesn’t universally cause better treatment. Of course if one is not groomed and look disheveled that would play a negative role.

[bpforever1]

I think in the workplace depending on the field appearances matter to some extent. For example, in the service industry, appearances matter. In the business sector, appearances matter somewhat also. But, it is not about being pretty but looking sharp and well-dressed, not about physical beauty itself. I don't know what field the OP is working but it seems shallow. Why would only the good-looking people be promoted? Are you sure you're not mistaking being well-dressed and being well-groomed for being good-looking? I find it hard to believe a company would promote only good-looking people unless it helps the company financially. And, most companies believe in profit.

[NatalieJastrow]

Originally Posted by bpforever1

. For example, in the service industry, appearances matter. In the business sector, appearances matter somewhat also. But, it is not about being pretty but looking sharp and well-dressed, not about physical beauty itself..

I am going to have to stop this line of thinking. I work in an industry where every day everyone wears suits and we are rather prestigious place. There is absolutely no one who isn't kempt and well dressed or we wouldn't be in the building.

Also my *company* is not a profit business.

[bpforever1]

Hmm, I sort of see where your line of thinking comes into play then. Why work there? Aren't there other jobs you can work at, instead of this one with a hostile environment? I hope you aren't like me and need to take any job that comes your way. If you know you are not going to get promoted, why stay there?

[NatalieJastrow]

Originally Posted by bpforever1

Hmm, I sort of see where your line of thinking comes into play then. Why work there? Aren't there other jobs you can work at, instead of this one with a hostile environment? I hope you aren't like me and need to take any job that comes your way. If you know you are not going to get promoted, why stay there?

I feel like this thread has been way derailed.

Originally Posted by NatalieJastrow

I feel like this thread has been way derailed.

How so?.

[divine1966]

Originally Posted by WovenGalaxy

How so?.

I might be wrong but I think people started questioning why OP is staying at her job if it’s treating people this way. But her staying or leaving wasn’t a topic of this thread.

Also people forget that there are many reasons to stay in a particular place especially if working for government: it’s unwise to leave when working towards state or federal pension if you are close to retirement, you will lose money if you go anywhere else, you have a particular important benefit that you’ll lose if you leave etc

Overall her staying or leaving isn’t really what she wanted to talk about. It was about “if looks matter in how people treat us”

[NatalieJastrow]

Originally Posted by divine1966

Overall her staying or leaving isn’t really what she wanted to talk about. It was about “if looks matter in how people treat us”

Thank you. Exactly it. If you don't agree with the topic fine but no need to put me on trial because you want to make my topic about me and my workplace.

[bpforever1]

Divine, I see your point. I hope you find a resolution to your issues, Natalie. I understand it must be hard for you.

Well, I won't say anything anymore on this thread.

Ok I understand and appreciate the explanation. Take care Natalie!

[Etcetera1]

Originally Posted by NatalieJastrow

Thank you. Exactly it. If you don't agree with the topic fine but no need to put me on trial because you want to make my topic about me and my workplace.

I don't see anyone putting you on trial here. Sounded like a genuine interest in your circumstances, even if the advice given was perhaps not fitting. Hope this helps

[NatalieJastrow]

Originally Posted by Etcetera1

I don't see anyone putting you on trial here. Sounded like a genuine interest in your circumstances, even if the advice given was perhaps not fitting. Hope this helps

It does not. The specifics of my job situation make zero difference to the idea of looks being one thing we may not consider in why people are so cruddy to us. Other than, you don't want to accept the premise so you try to find some evidence that I am "doing it wrong".

[sarahsweets]

I think to say that looks don’t matter at least in a professional environment is short sighted. And if you’re a woman forget it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Discombobulated]

Maybe this is cultural? I’m not from the US, and my experience doesn’t reflect the OPs at all. Doesn’t mean either of us is wrong just different experiences.

[poshgirl]

I agree it could be cultural. However, I've witnessed various prejudices in the work environment. Okay, this was around 30 years ago and times have now changed (mostly!).

I agree with sarahsweets, it is short-sighted. You should be judged by your ability/experience. If you've made the effort to dress and present yourself appropriately at least for interview that's a plus point too.

What you can't legislate for is the personal prejudice that may appear after you've accepted the role. During my working life, I experienced comments about my height/weight. In one company it was obvious I was a poor substitute for the tall leggy blonde I'd replaced. Then in another, the HR Director apologised for her assistant's attitude towards me, which appeared to be borne out of jealousy.

Now with advent of social media, girls/women are supposed to be perfect. If there's the slightest flaw, then you can be vilified.

[Medusax]

I have never had trouble in the workplace. But as far as dating....forget it. "You're really nice, but....."

[eskielover]

Originally Posted by sarahsweets

I think to say that looks don’t matter at least in a professional environment is short sighted. And if you’re a woman forget it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was a computer engineer (professional field) & worked with mostly guys. Looks were not important, but how you did your work sure was. Glad I was in the field where I was treated as an equal at all the companies I worked for