My ex came to the house

What I see here is two people divorcing who are bitter and hostile and each trying to recruit their kids into taking sides. It's an old and familiar story that brings credit to no one.

Divine 1966 gave exellent advice about limiting ex-wife's access to your home and having her contact with her daughter be court-directed. Or do you prefer that your ex and daughter meet and converse under your roof, where you can listen in on their interaction?

Give your daughter a little credit for not being a total fool. Kids are pretty good at figuring out who loves them. It's not your place to tell your daughter that her mother doesn't love her and is only throwing breadcrumbs her way. That would constitute alienation. Aside from the implications in court that you do fear, it is just wrong. DD didn't get to choose who she would have for a mother. You made that choice for her.

If your ex is the monster you portray her as - which I'm not disputing - one has to question your judgement in marrying such a person. Maybe your judgement is less than perfect, all-knowing and all-wise. Maybe it's time for a little humility, instead of this high-stakes competition over who the kids will side with . . . and who the therapist will side with. Therapists are not supposed to make decisions for their clients.

The therapist telling DD to have no contact with her mother sounds out of line to me. If you are paying for all this therapy, perhaps the therapist is courting favor with you. Therapists have families to support and bills to pay, just like the rest of us. This whole family therapy enterprise sounds like a non-stop quest to demonize your ex. and satisfy an insatiable hunger for validation. Apparently, this therapist has been delivering the goods.

Your daughter is under intense pressure to conform to other's expectations of who she should love and whose "side" she should be on. That's unhealthy for her. It's apt to mold her in ways that you won't like. It could lead to her feeling she has to put on a false front and change it, depending on who she's with. This is how you teach a child to be manipulative. Sounds like her brother has already mastered that.

That is uncalled for. Im reporting you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rose76 What I see here is two people divorcing who are bitter and hostile and each trying to recruit their kids into taking sides. It's an old and familiar story that brings credit to no one.

Not wise to project when not there & experiencing & understanding exactly what is going on

@Rose76

My wife perpetrated physical, mental, and emotional abuse on me and my son, and neglected our daughter.

The kids asked me to get them out repeatedly for over a year before we split.

Since then we’ve each, separately, learned about CPTSD, covert narcissism and borderline personality disorder

I’m not labelling her or diagnosing her. I’m telling you we EACH, SEPARATELY have been referred to treatment for this type of abuse, including family therapy and psychiatric referrals. This week our family doctor said our daughter had physical symptoms of CPTSD and chronic anxiety and was referred to a pediatric psychiatrist.

My daughter, by court order, lives with me exclusively. She was attending therapy with her mom in 2023 but the therapist turned her mom away because of the gaslighting and damage she was causing in sessions.

There are people around us who don’t believe us.

You’d be one of them.

People often don’t believe abused men.

Many never believed my husband about his ex even after my stepdaughters would convey what was happening, people’s still say “you are a big guy, there’s no way that took place”. And many who believed still blamed him, this time for staying too long. Like it’s that easy.

Many people still buy an old narrative of men always being abusers and women always being victims. I know it’s very far from the truth.

As about mom having parental rights. If her rights weren’t taken away, then of course she has them but it’s curious that she’s not petitioning for established visitations. I wonder if it’s because she knows she might not get the visitations? So she thinks she can just show up and will be let in

When is the divorce final?

It's also important to remember that abuse tends to be progressive.

Many (if not most) abusers start relationships as the most charming and charismatic people you can imagine. The escalation is often a slow and steady pattern of testing and amping up of abusive behaviors. You get into "frog in the pot" territory where the victims' are often not aware of just how bad things have gotten over time--- even if they know something isn't right. True victims aren't victims by choice, and shouldn't ever feel blamed or shamed for something cruel that another person has done to them.

Omg. TRUTH! Abuse IS progressive. My ex husband didn’t become severely abusive until just after the wedding. It had been a year before we got married (whirlwind romance and moved in together fast). I was so swept up in being romanced and pursued, I lost all logic. I saw hints and signs leading up to the wedding, but after solidifying the marriage and my tie to him, the abuse escalated far worse. I don’t mean to hijack the thread but this is such an important aspect to the abuse cycle and how it starts. Important to learn after abuse to avoid it happening again with someone new.

@Rose76

There’s a family that we’ve been friends with since 25 years. Our kids are the same age. They’ve got all girls.

I asked them a couple of months prior to our separation and in the couple of months after to please talk to my wife. I told them her behaviour had become increasingly extreme and it was affecting the kids and she wouldn’t listen to me.

They said repeatedly there were two sides.

After 12 months separated I asked them

If a woman was covering the bills in her home, if her kids had asked her to get them out, if her husband was drinking a lot, cursing out one of the kids, keeping insane hours, waking the house at night repeatedly threatening he was going to divorce her and leave her with nothing, going out with his friends all the time, was seen out with other women, stealing money from his family, not paying child support, not showing an interest in the kids at all, and that woman had gotten a second job, paid all the bills including her husbands debt to protect their credit, and there was zero court ordered visitation… Would there be two sides?

Or was there two sides because the genders were flipped?

You said something like all you saw were two people putting the kids in the middle.

Tell me how my actions put our minor daughter in the middle.

@RDMercer, it takes time to learn what people are actually saying when they make their comments. This other couple stating there are two sides actually means they don’t want to take sides. These people are not trying to declare fault, they just don’t want to disrespect either of you or take on the challenge between you.

You have been facing a real challenge as a parent and I think you have tried to love and listen to your children without encouraging them to be against their mother. I question the advice for you to foster a relationship between your children and their mother. I think that is something they need help and guidance from a professional. I also feel it’s important that your children feel their home is their safe place. This means your wife should not just show up demanding a visit. It’s more important your children be informed ahead of time. It’s clear your children have been traumatized by your wife. I know from personal experience that people who have substance abuse problems can be imbalanced and can get mean both emotionally and physically. Children do not have the life skills to understand or self protect.

People with substance abuse problems notoriously play the victim and downplay their substance abuse issues. They tend to blame the ones that are sober. Also they tend to be around others that also have substance abuse problems. Stating they have cut back is just a form of denial. The disease leads to changes in moods so one never knows what mood they will be facing. Being generous means NOTHING, it’s just another form of denial. Your daughter is too young to understand this.

I think you are trying and you have reached out for help. Your wife has to be responsible for her issues. Dressing up and suddenly showing up twice as you describe was a selfish act.

@RDMercer how is it going?

"@RDMercer, it takes time to learn what people are actually saying when they make their comments. This other couple stating there are two sides actually means they don’t want to take sides. These people are not trying to declare fault, they just don’t want to disrespect either of you or take on the challenge between you."

I know that is what they were saying.

And my point was, My kids needed support. We were dealt covert abuse for years, and they needed someone else to believe them. At some point you have to find your backbone and take a side.

And what I said to them was true. If the genders were reversed, they wouldn't have hesitated. If it was a woman left in that situation they wouldn't have been saying, "Well.. There's two sides to everything" I'm sure there would have been outrage.

There aren't two sides to this. We were abused. My kids were relying on their kids' friendships, and we needed support, and the adults were going "I don't hear anything. Don't involve us." I let that happen for a year, then questioned them on it again, and got the same response. I've let them go.

If you've been gaslit and manipulated for years into accepting your abuse, then it's not OK to keep people around who will draw your experiences into question.

Your post is showing a lot of growth RD. WhenI first started interacting with you, you were committed to staying on your path with your wife and being devoted no matter what. NOW you are recognizing how toxic the relationship really was and how it was causing so much damage.

You still experience trauma symptoms but you are gaining on understanding why and your recovery time is shorter. Your wife invaded your space and she knew how to disable you. People who choose to behave this way are NOT healthy to be in a relationship with. Covert is especially toxic because it’s planned out in sneaky ways and meant to disable.

"Covert is especially toxic because it’s planned out in sneaky ways and meant to disable."

Oh, you better believe it.

I've gotten multiple emails from her since Friday, asking about our youngest, asking about the house, asking about why I'm not using the money we set aside for the youngest, telling me she never claimed the youngest on her income tax as a dependent, and referencing that I should and asking if I did, and that I can use the birth certificate she left with me to do su.

Allllll a smoke screen.

She hasn't asked about the youngest in over seven months. Suddenly a flurry of emails.

She hasn't answered any of my emails about work I'm doing on the house or costs associated in the last 1.5 years. Suddenly interest.

I'm not using the money set aside for the youngest because she's moved it all into another account over a year ago, and never replied to my texts and emails about it.

I never asked about if she claimed the youngest as a dependent on her income tax, HOWEVER, I did claim the youngest on my income tax six months ago and was told there was a counter-claim made. Maybe I was misinformed. Maybe not. Maybe she's dealing with the tax man now.

She sent me a picture of the kids' birth certificates and health insurance cards over a year ago and said, "You'll never get these from me," and I went through the motions of having them re-issued, and now she's referencing when she gave them to me. I don't remember her giving me the birth certificates and cards after that.

I bet we're in court soon and I bet she's trying to cover her tracks.

Is she claiming that sending you pics of documents is the same as giving you actual documents?

It sounds that she’s preparing for the courts by portraying herself as a dutiful mother and fully cooperating soon to be ex spouse. She wants you to look like you aren’t cooperating.

I hope you are saving everything she ever sent you as well as have evidence of her not replying to your inquiries about important things.

Oh she definitely tried to claim the youngest and is now playing dumb

She actually sent me the pictures of the documents and said, "You're never getting these back."

Our oldest requested his birth certificate repeatedly for months after that, telling her he needed it for a passport application to cross the Canadian border. He didn't wait for me to continue to argue with his mom. He went and reported his I.D.s as stolen by his mother to the police. She dropped off his birth certificate at the house several months after that.

I don't remember her dropping off anything else.

I still question myself. Right now I'm going, "Did she give me the other stuff? Do I not remember? Where would I have put that stuff? Why would I have gone through the trouble to have everything replaced if she gave them to me?"

Your son is awesome!

I like the way your son handles problems (ok, I do tend to think like him too...."you want to cause me problems I know ways to cause you more....just do what you are asked & we wouldn't need to go this route")

I'm still scared of seeing her.

I'm scared of "catching" whatever negativity she is putting down.

One of the things we are supposed to do is visualize these interactions. I am mentally running from that each time I do it.

It hurts to visualize these interactions and it actually causes me panic.

I'm meeting with a new therapist tomorrow. I've seen her twice before and she's much more insistent than the one I've been seeing all along. Much more "you need to do this".

RDMercer

It's actually more than that.

I'm scared of being provoked into acting or speaking a way that takes me away from being me.

And I'm scared of the pain she can cause me.

She took down my boundaries repeatedly for years, but I also dropped them more and more. I made myself more and more vulnerable to her in an attempt to be unguarded and connect with her.

I'm also scared of how much I doubt myself around her.

Right now, my world makes sense, or It did up until a few hours ago, Then I started questioning what was real again.

ITA.

Sounds like she's trying to do damage control. Planting the little seeds of doubt wherever she can.

She convinced you to second-guess and doubt yourself for so long that you're susceptible to it. Sometimes keeping a journal of short notations is helpful when it comes to this kind of gaslighting. Concrete evidence for yourself, by date, about what you did or didn't do, and about what she did or didn't do.

Do Not hand her information in emails. For example, I thought she took the money se aside for your daughter. If that is true then her email asking you if you use that is a set up hoping you will answer in writing something she can use against you or to create doubt about her taking that money.

It’s important to remember that anything you say can and will be used against you. Also this will be another way she will try to invade so it’s very important to remember that and she knows how to act to fool you. You know better now.

Remember, she wants money and someone else to foot the bill for her. She doesn’t love, she uses

Yup

I agree

She doesn’t love.

And that hurts to face and admit.

For the first month after she took the money set aside for therapy and riding lessons for the youngest I pursued it. Then I just left it to the lawyer.

It’s already been stated in court she has to pay it back. Now she’s playing dumb about it.

This feels like damage control.

Unbelievable. She took the money and now is asking why you aren’t using it. She has no shame

Well, as I listen to your story, never have I heard of her showing concern for how you are. That’s a definite red flag. All her actions have been acts of selfishness.

I am suspicious about her asking if you take a tax deduction for your daughter. It sounds like she is looking for a way to get control of your daughter. That’s is not about love either but about financial gain for herself. Probably because if she gets her daughter then she can push to get what she sees as the equity in the house.