solstice

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Can you back up your statement about the "Muslim Text" condemning you to death? I assume you mean the Koran. That makes your statement a false attack on a major religion and millions of people. Cite your source (in context) as proof or retract your statement..

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I've read the Q'oran cover to cover and it's in there.

The politics of America include the Christian foundations.

Funny how this thread has gone from a seemingly side topic of the winter solstice to condemning America again, and attacking me personally.

I won't continue this thread. I hope the thread doesn't continue.

If you actually ARE familiar with the Koran, you should be able to cite your source.......you can't, because there is no such statement made in the Koran--killing is ONLY authorized in self-defense.

What the Koran actually says is this:

The Disbelievers

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
[109.1] Say: O unbelievers!
[109.2] I do not serve that which you serve,
[109.3] Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.4] Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
[109.5] Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.6] To you your religion and to me my religion.

You really SHOULD retract your statement, not just because it's incorrect and an insult to Muslims, but because such statements can encourage hatred toward the people of that religion.

It's the right thing to do.

Hey Den. Thanks for an interesting discussion... Sorry it will be cut short (no doubt) because Sky chooses to interpret it as a threat to her country (note that Septembermorn brought up the US I didn't and didn't intend this to be about the US any more than about the way things are done in Australasia)... And a threat to her religon (note: i'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to celebrate whatever but what bugs me is the statutary holidays).

"Muslims should not take Christians or Jews for friends. (Al-Ma’idah 5:51) They must fight against Christians and Jews who refuse Islam until they surrender, pay the poll-tax and are humiliated. (At-Taubah 9:29) To this may be added hundreds of Qur’anic verses on the subject of jihad in the path of Allah, as well as the 'Book of Jihad' found in all Hadith collections."

Sky is correct there, as is any world history textbook that talks about the "Gunpowder Empires," which is what the Ottomans were all about. There has been religious wars going on in the Middle East for zillions of years and it wanders over to Europe (and/from Africa) occasionally, and isn't likely to stop now, despite our thinking we're too "modern" for it and have put the Crusades and that sort of thing behind us. Both Christianity and Islam are what are referred to as "militant" religions for a reason and I don't think we're going to solve that whole problem here! I am not personally out to rape, murder, pillage or burn anyone and don't think anyone else here is either; whether Christian, Muslim, Wiccan, or anything else.

The Solstice celebrations are Northern Hemisphere, it-gets-dark-in-Europe sorts of things. Christianity used whatever beliefs were there to help make the transition. I don't think there's any such thing as a "pure" religion. Religion is (wo)man's idea of how to worship God not something God laid down. In the beginning of religions there's a lot that is said about how to "do" things because the religion has to get started and it's a little hard if no one comes up with a story line and how things should be? The Jews had to get "out" from among all the other religions of the time/region and the Old Testament talks about that. The New Testament uses the Book of Acts mostly to kind of talk about what was happening in the Church at that time versus Saturnalius, what the Romans were doing. Christmas uses some of the Gospel stories of Jesus being born, the 3 wise men, Bethlehem, etc. to come up with some Christmas traditions but he was born in a desert area, a bit hard to move to Germany? So we have Yule logs, Christmas trees, eggnog, etc. There are multiple Great Flood stories, why does it matter if we call the guy Noah or something else?

(((Hugs))))

Thank you, Perna! I was waiting for your knowledgable words! Not that Sky's aren't, but because they are, people like to argue with her. They just can't seem to help themselves regardless of the guidelines and the fact that Doc John said this forum is NOT FOR DISCUSSION of religious issues.

September Morn, in fairness I must remind you that Sky is the one who made the erroneous and inflammatory statement that the Koran had sentenced her to death ("even though their text condemns us to death").

Now.....

Perna, you are not dealing with Sky's statement, which was that she had been sentenced to death by the Koran.

That is simply not true and she should retract it.

Your quotes, even though they do not deal with the question of a death sentence, are interesting in that you take them out of context to try to support Sky's statement.

What I mean is this: You grabbed one little quote as though it means that Muslims should fight against all Christians and Jews.

But......if you read back a bit (start at 9:1) you will find that the reference is to a specific group of people--"the idolators with whom you made covenant."

Not all Christians and Jews, as you say, but a specific group of people who had broken a peace treaty and attacked the people of Islam.

And even this group was given a period of four months to repent of their treachery (God is merciful).

See how this works? You have twisted scripture to wrongly attack another religion.

This is particularly objectionable considering the state of relations that we currently face between Muslims and Christians in America.

You also have some retracting to do.

I sent you the listing of q'oran references backing my statement. Have a good day

Back to the original topic... I think it's a good thing to honor the changing of seasons and such, and contemplate the changing of things.

Unfortunately for your position, you did not send me a single reference that backed your statement that the Koran condemned you to death.

I repeat......in the Koran, killing is only approved in self-defense when attacked.

I repeat my request that you retract your statement because it is clearly an insult to all Muslims and a twisting of the Koran that promotes ill will.

Islam is a religion of peace and your statement strengthens the erroneous stereotype of the Muslim as killer of Christian.

I'm surprised that you would do such a thing.

Solstice is spoken of in the bible. I see it as the changing of the seasons and the blessings that come with each change. Even Native Americans knew that. Holidays are just man made things that some times get so wacked out. IMO

Yes mlyn... and to me, it is a time to glory in God's creation.

I'm sorry that this thread turned out to be unsupportive to those of muslim faith.

Some people are literalists about their own Bible and about other peoples too, I guess.

And some people use it to justify what they believe already.

I'm really sorry.

Thank you, Alexandria.

You had nothing to apologize for, but it's nice of you.

I've seen a few flashes of insight and wisdom on this forum and I'm happy to say you are one of them.

I'm not criticizing anyone's expression of faith EXCEPT where they use their faith as an excuse to stomp on others in an ugly attempt to raise their own self-esteem.

All religions that show love and compassion for the poor, the weak and the marginalized are true......and that's what we should concentrate on.

Thank you for your kind words.

I probably should leave this forum alone...

I guess I was hoping that it could be a place for people to have discussions about religious themes. Where people could come and ask things like 'does believing in God help you' and 'I'm not sure if I want a faith / which faith I should have' etc. I figured people would answer from a variety of perspectives and discussions could be useful...

But that isn't really turning out to be the case. People attempt to answer with respect to the way things are rather than from their personal experience. Or people say 'off topic!' when they don't like what is said. Or people are quick to jump on others assuming that other people are attacking them. And the result is that discussion cannot take place unless the discussion is conducted from WITHIN the christian faith.

So... Instead of talking to people from church... People have a board to chat to. And people don't have a variety of people from a variety of faiths so you get some between-faith discussion going on.

I find it hard to cope with the mudslinging. People assuming malevolent intent. Probably time to bow out... I do think it is a shame that there are a small minority who seem to be vocal enough to dictate how things go...

Though maybe the moderators on the forum are of christian faith...

My prayer is that all of us can learn to love one another and be kind and good to one another...despite differences..

Peace... Faith

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alexandra_k said:
Thank you for your kind words.

I probably should leave this forum alone...

I guess I was hoping that it could be a place for people to have discussions about religious themes. Where people could come and ask things like 'does believing in God help you' and 'I'm not sure if I want a faith / which faith I should have' etc. I figured people would answer from a variety of perspectives and discussions could be useful...

But that isn't really turning out to be the case. People attempt to answer with respect to the way things are rather than from their personal experience. Or people say 'off topic!' when they don't like what is said. Or people are quick to jump on others assuming that other people are attacking them. And the result is that discussion cannot take place unless the discussion is conducted from WITHIN the christian faith.

So... Instead of talking to people from church... People have a board to chat to. And people don't have a variety of people from a variety of faiths so you get some between-faith discussion going on.

I find it hard to cope with the mudslinging. People assuming malevolent intent. Probably time to bow out... I do think it is a shame that there are a small minority who seem to be vocal enough to dictate how things go...

Though maybe the moderators on the forum are of christian faith...

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That last statement looks anti-christian. So what if they ARE christian? Does that make them automatically biased? Don't bother to reply that was rhetorical

i've never said this before in my life...

but my thread was hijacked. i was talking about how the solstice could be interesting to base the statutary holidays around so that the statutary holidays were more inter-faith rather than specifically christian as they are now.

then people launched into attacks on islam...

then people launched into attacks on me (assumptions that i'm anti-christian)

i do think that people tend not to notice biases they endorse...

still...

call the boards 'christian based faith boards' if that is what in fact they are...

Is this not a forum for support, if debates are necessary find a site for that only, spirituallism and faith do not need debating

i just told you what my intention in the thread was. crystal crystal as crystal clear as i possibly could.

did i mention arguing or debating in that?

no. i did not.


if you can't refrain from jumping to conclusions about my intention then please refrain from posting to my threads.

thanks.

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DocJohn said:
This is a safe place where members of the community can go and discuss spiritual issues.

As a reminder, this is specifically not a place to debate issues of religion.

Welcome and enjoy!
DocJohn

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alexandra_k said:
that seems to be what is in common...
in the northern hemisphere anyway lol
i guess the shortest and longest correspond (fairly much) on the different sides of the earth?

http://www.zenzibar.com/articles/christmas.asp

that is why it surprises me how some people choose to boycott halloween...

the origins of christmas (or x-mas where 'x' was a customary abbreviation for krist, khrist, or christ and where it is also the sign of the christian - and roman - cross)

solstice.

happy solstice everyone.

break out the supplies

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<font color="green">[b] I've been thoughtful about this. I'm wondering how your suggestion that "everyone" choose to celebrate Solstice instead of the various holidays during this time of year, is any different than what it done. Solstice comes to different parts of the earth at different times, so no one would be celebrating all at the same time anyway...and with all the different views on HOW to celebrate, esp solstice,and all the different cultures, where would the uniformity that I think you might be looking for, be?

That is what you wish, right, to not have so much, say, confusing, holidays going on at once? I'm wondering if you feel there is no congruity between the holidays and the spirit being shown? Is that what you wish for, in suggesting we pick just one?

I don't think that because some holidays share the same day, for example, means the same elements are being celebrated. Don't you agree that perhaps the various groups chose the same elements that they did, in order to have their celebration their own way, while others were also in the celebrating spirit? And isn't that what would eventually turn out in the end: exactly what we have today!

The difficulty I see if that the solstice is a naturally occurring event that peoples in "ancient" times decided to celebrate and believe certain things about because of different knowledge and needs. So you get an ancient "time" and over the many many years, 1000s, things get added and taken away and religions come and go until you have a holiday today that various people celebrate various ways, some in a religious fashion and some in a secular and some not at all because they have difficulty with or don't like either. We have a "winter break" in work, before the arbitrary same-day a week later break for the "new year." The calendars have changed and other parts of the world and other religions use different dates for the new year and that's all fine.

But what I don't get is why the people who don't observe/want to observe Christmas, object to those who do and want those who do observe Christmas to observe "solstice" instead? Why does someone care what I call it and what I feel/believe when I celebrate it and that we all take off December 25 but don't care that we take off July 4 or the 2nd Monday in February? So it's called "Christmas" and represents the birth of Jesus Christ to some, so what? It's around the solstice, around Hannukah, around etc. and people have Santa come or have Santa run over Grandma with his reindeer; the Government and most businesses close that day and some benighted states or localities might have additional "religous" laws because they're in the Bible belt, the people vote, it's still a democracy, sorry you're the "wrong" party! My state is all Democratic and my husband's a Republican; and some places are Christian and close their government a certain day and not others. Some vote to be "dry" counties and not others too, how dare they when I want a drink? It's all a cultural phenomenon, not a religious plot! Nobody gets everything exactly like they want it!

It reminds me of when a department store I worked for had scissors on sale but only "right handed" ones, not left-handed ones, the left-handed ones were regular/double the sale price and I thought it was discrimination because I'm left handed. My husband patiently explained to me that I could buy all the right-handed scissors I wanted, no one was stopping me from buying what was on sale. It's no different from when they have women's underwear on sale but not men's that week :-) Discrimination is when you're not allowed to choose whatever is being offered, not that it differs from what you [/i]want[/i]. If the house is for sale to anyone but you, that's discrimination. If all the businesses close, it's a day off, not discrimination because you don't believe they "should" be closed and you want to work. Elect a different congressman and get him to vote it that way; it's called society and "majority rules." You want to call the 25th of December "Solstice" -- great! I'm calling it "Christmas." You want Congress to pass a law calling it "Solstice" -- Great! I'm calling it "Christmas."

Sky and Perna... RIGHT ON!!!!

thanks for the good posts people :-)

i think people should be allowed to celebrate whenever they wish and i'm certainly not suggesting that people not be allowed to celebrate christmas or whatever.

what i was suggesting, however, is that the statutary holidays be more neutral both with respect to between religions and whether it is religious at all.

because currently the statutary holidays (in the US, Canada, the UK, Australasia) seem to be based around christian religions. as there is more diversity in the world however (and as we get better at acknowledging that) i thought it might be a nice idea to have a neutral statutary holidays and of course people could still celebrate when they wanted...

oh. Ok... I would like time to count our holidays in the USA and see how many are Christian religion based...comparatively. Unless you know this statistic already... I'll find it later.

OT means Off Topic, btw.. but since you began the thread you can change the topic, I guess even though is doesn't quite fit spirituality anymore does it?