solstice

easter monday and christmas day.

i'm going to put you on ignore sky. i'm not saying that to hurt you. i'm not doing that to hurt you. it does seem to me, however, that the majority of your posts are antagonistic to me and even when i request that you not PM me you don't seem to be able to refrain from lashing out at me via personal message.

your life might be a little easier if you put me on ignore in return. i'm not asking you to do that i know it is your personal decision. but given that you seem to feel upset in response to the majority of my posts i would like to suggest that putting me on ignore might be a nice way for you to refrain from reading what is clearly upsetting to you.

sorry that it has come to this...

maybe if we go our seperate ways we can both get more enjoyment from this forum.

take care.

Quite the contrary, I'm not upset in the least.
There are many loose ends, questions you make of me that I had not yet addressed, which is the reason for my replying now.

When I stated "ignorantly" I was referring to not understanding how our democracy works. Being ignorant is a state of being. Unaware. If we were socialist, then yes, the minority would have quite a bit of power I guess.

Our government doesn't mandate any body be closed on our holidays... it does close government for certain ascribed ones, but those employees are paid well for not working, and double time and a half if they do work them. Stores are welcomed to open, and some do..but most find that since the minority of people who go shopping on the religious holidays can't provide them with enough income to make it worth their while (which is how society follows the majority no matter what the majority is) they usually don't open.

We have many more statutory holidays than just Christmas and Easter btw. This is what I was referring to in that your statement </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
what i was suggesting, however, is that the statutary holidays be more neutral both with respect to between religions and whether it is religious at all.

because currently the statutary holidays (in the US, Canada, the UK, Australasia) seem to be based around christian religions

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> in which you make it sound like the only statutory holidays are the two religious ones.

Are all the President's birthday holidays religious in your mind? And Martin Luther King's day, is that religious to you?

Making statements of opinion as though they are pure fact will be called in question often I would think. What? Shall we allow the erroneous to continue uncountered? If someone speaks truth from what they know, and especially things that are their own personal experience, there is no argument. As you said, if someone says they are hot even though it's 30 degrees, so what? They are hot. But if they were to make the statement, People are hot in here... what should be said? Do we leave them alone in their ignorance or try to find out why they would make such a statement. If I am in the room and someone says that...am I to then think, Oh, I'm hot...because someone said so? It doesn't sound very logical imo.

I don't care what the screen name, when someone continues to post verbosely without continuity of thought and reason, and expecting generalized statements to stand as truth for all, while at the same time demanding no one else do likewise and also at the same time accusing others of doing what they themselves are doing... IDK I think something or someone needs to say, Wait a minute.

You have accused me of highjacking your thread. You are the one who went off on a tangent about what you think the USA does, condeming it. I merely tried to give you a statistical foundation to show you were off a bit on your facts.

You have accused me of launching into an attack on Islam. I think my posts state very clearly that we allow them to worship here in the USA even though they have attacked us. I think my posts also show no such attack on my part.

Now I also have two items to note for all here. The use of the ignore is a good thing. And anyone who has a problem with what someone posts, should use it. However, you cannot tell others to quit reading what you post, If someone doesn't want others to read what they think, they shouldn't be posting it...Likewise with PMs.. to tell anyone to quit PMing ... that's what the ignore is for.

The second item is it's against guidelines to talk about PMs in a post. The fact that you accused me of lashing out at you in a PM and then spread this mistatement in a public post is close to slander, imo. I do NOT take it lightly.

However I'm still not upset. I am eager to see a change in this relationship
soon.

Way to go, Sky! I'm with you 100%!!

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alexandra_k said:
i think people should be allowed to celebrate whenever they wish and i'm certainly not suggesting that people not be allowed to celebrate christmas or whatever.

what i was suggesting, however, is that the statutary holidays be more neutral both with respect to between religions and whether it is religious at all.

because currently the statutary holidays (in the US, Canada, the UK, Australasia) seem to be based around christian religions. as there is more diversity in the world however (and as we get better at acknowledging that) i thought it might be a nice idea to have a neutral statutary holidays and of course people could still celebrate when they wanted...

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alexandra_k . . . interesting thread. i do hope you keep active in this forum.

i agree with the statutary holidays being not fair to others of different faiths.

but it takes more than a majority to get laws passed. it takes money, lobbying, and grassroots effort, etc. until the other faiths unite and put enough money into the pot, more than the Dec. 25th followers, then nothing will change.

i tend to view Christmas more of a custom than a religious holiday. i wish Christmas would go away.

about the solstice . . .

Would a statutary solstice holiday be more neutral to all the faiths?

I don't think so. For there are some faiths that believe celebrating anything but their god (or their god's or religion's holidays) is forbidden.

I doubt there is such a thing as a neutral statutary holiday. (I'm thinking about the U.S. statutary holidays of Columbus Day and Thanksgiving. Those are two holidays that honor shameful historical events of genocide of the native, non-Christians.)

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but it takes more than a majority to get laws passed. it takes money, lobbying, and grassroots effort, etc. until the other faiths unite and put enough money into the pot, more than the Dec. 25th followers, then nothing will change.

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I disagree. The Humanists are doing all they can to ban Christmas in all it's forms as we speak. Stores have stopped saying "Merry Christmas" in all forms to their customers. The Salvation Army is no longer allowed to ring their bells in front of many stores. Schools no longer call Christmas, Christmas. It's a Winter Holiday. If the school board is "soft", they allow secular carolls but not Christian carolls.

I'd be a little careful about giving all the credit / blame to the humanists. Most humanists aren't activists. I have to say I'd be surprised if it were the agnostics / atheists who were the driving force compared with people of other faiths.

You see people as trying to ban christmas? Do you think they mind if you celebrate christmas in your own home?

Why do you consider it 'soft' to have secular carrolls?

Would you sing Muslim songs?

Do you think it would be fair for people to ask you to?

Hey Jennie. I'm not sure what it will take... I think it might be more likely to change in Australasia before it changes in the US. I say that because there are higher rates of atheism / agnosticism... But then... I guess the atheists and agnostics don't really have such a problem with santa anymore than they have a problem with the tooth fairy...

> there are some faiths that believe celebrating anything but their god (or their god's or religion's holidays) is forbidden.

Well then. If you get two of those (and their god or religious holidays are different) then someone lucks out. People don't have to be forced to celebrate, of course... I guess I was just thinking that it would be nice if the stat days were neutral with respect to religion. Part of fostering a spirit of tolerance and awareness that different people think differently etc...

> I doubt there is such a thing as a neutral statutary holiday. (I'm thinking about the U.S. statutary holidays of Columbus Day and Thanksgiving. Those are two holidays that honor shameful historical events of genocide of the native, non-Christians.)

Ah. I don't know about those (I'm from Australasia). Lets see... What do we have... We celebrate the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi (the founding document of NZ). England needed them to hurry up and sign because some of the tribes had already started signing treaties with France and the US and England didn't want to lose the country to them. So they wrote up the treaty of Waitangi (in English and Maori) and they got by far the majority of chiefs of the majority of tribes to sign it. I think... They signed it at Waitangi. Jeepers, my knowledge of history is atrocious.

But then... After signing a document where it was clear that Maori retained 'soverignty' (You wouldn't believe the number of people writing theses on that word in NZ) they were treated as second class citizens. Forced to go to school, caned for speaking Maori, the Europeans almost ran the language into extinction. The missionaries used to invite communities to church. They would then proceed to bolt the door and set the church on fire. Most of the fighting was over land...

Some people wonder why Maori have higher rates of substance abuse and unemployment and crime etc. When you consider what was done to their grandparents and their greatgrandparents etc then it is much easier to see why they don't have a particularly happy view of life, however. And don't even get me started on the Aborigines. At one point in Australian history they gave them cars in reperation. Cars. Where are desert wanderers going to go to fill the tank? The majority had never seen a car before. They slept in them. They thought they were strange european tents.

I've met a couple people since my solstice suggestion and they don't celebrate anything until March. One (sorry I can't remember where he is from) has the water festival where everyone throws water on each other because it is so hot. But that is in March.

I dunno... I guess I was just thinking that the official holidays of the country... Well... Am I hopelessly idealistic in suggesting that they be as neutral (as possible) between religions and as to whether they are religious or not?

I guess Santa does some of that... But it is still hard for people of different faiths I think.

Aren't they, though. That's a misconception but I won't go into how I know.

I can't speak for all Humanists, but I personally have no problem with Christmas or anyone celebrating it. I participate because it's important to my parents and brothers, and because I think it's important to uphold some traditions. But, I would support whatever their beliefs are. People should be free to choose their religion and celebrate without being mocked.

Are we allowed to go to a Moslem country and change it's songs of faith? Are we even allowed to go to a Moslem country and pray to our own God?
Are we allowed to even say we have faith in the Christian God, in a moslem country?

The answer is NO. So why would the USA, a CHRISTIAN country, be denegrated for promoting the singing of Christian hymns, while still allowing moslem ones too?

Why not go work on changing the Arab countries first, bringing them UP at least to the level of tolerance that we have, before you continue to put my country down.

This is an interesting thread. It's sad that people turned into something hateful.

As someone who grew up Jewish in the US, I can say that it was very hard. I could choose to take off school for our holidays, but school went on without me so it wasn't really feasible. In chorus we sang nothing but Christian religious songs which was confusing. It wasn't easy for me.

I have no problem with Christmas or any other religious holiday. I have no problem with people celebrating whatever holiday they want but I don't really like having it shoved down my throught all the time. I don't think schools and other government institutions should play favorites with the different religious holidays. If I grew up as a Christian I may feel differently. It would have been much easier to celebrate important holidays.

I find this thread most interesting. Full of diversity which is what life in America is all about. We have the freedom to worship any religion we so choose. Being Christian, Islam, Jewish and some even worship satan. Folks can even worship a tree, if they so desire. And yes folks can say Blessed Be, Peace be upon Him, and some can even curse God. But should a person say Merry Christmas, folks are offended. They want to take the Christ out of everything. The Lord’s Prayer has been replaced by metal detecters in schools. Who knows, maybe the next thing folks will fuss about is saluting the American flag. America is a Christian nation. As Islamic countries are Muslim and I have no problem accepting that. I can say, it would be a most interesting day when a Bible carrying Christian can give out Bibles in the market place standing next to a Muslim in an Islamic country. Or even having a diverse discussion of banishing religious holidays in an Islamic country would be most interesting. Talk about being hung or shot right on the spot. Needless to say, all religions and/or cultures are welcomed in America. And all the people that come here from various countries hold dearly to their roots and continue to teach their children their culture and/or religious beliefs along side with American culture. Nobody is hurt by American culture and/or religious beliefs. If this wasn’t true, then America would be the last place folks would risk their lives to live here.

Of course Christmas is a worldwide holiday. And to replace a worldwide Merry Christmas with a Merry Solstice would not be taken lightly by many. I believe those that want to say Merry Solstice has that right. But I also believe those who want to say Merry Christmas should also have that right. It rather irks me when my religious beliefs and/or traditions are attacked and when my beliefs are protested against only to be replaced by other’s beliefs.

Not only is Christmas a religious holiday, it is also a festive holiday for family gatherings. The Christmas tree is not worshiped. Santa Clause is not worshiped. And the wreaths hung on windows or doors are not worshiped. I can say the twinkling lights displayed on trees or homes always makes my heart dance and always brings a smile, no matter how bad I feel or what difficult situation I may be facing. So I am thinking that maybe it isn’t always the Christ in Christmas that offends some people. Since the holiday is also a family holiday, some may not have that “happy, warm, loving” family to visit and they are lonely and/or depressed and the very sight of festive celebrations or “happiness” only makes them feel worse. Some may have experienced a trauma or heartache or extreme hardship during this time of year and only sad memories surface. I know I have had more than my share of spending Christmas alone and wanting to only hide from the smiling faces and joyous celebrations of the holiday. I also have had more than my share of happy holidays. Christmas to me is more than a turkey dinner, or a decorated pine tree. Christmas means to me the celebrating of the birth of Christ. “Fear not for I bring you good news and great joy. For unto you is born this day a Savior who is Christ the Lord. And peace on earth, goodwill toward men”. Celebration, salvation and reconciliation.

As Muslim women have the right to wear her hajib and veil which represents her religious faith, she also has the freedom to say Blessed be upon Him. I also want to exercise my rights by saying God Bless You. Others also have the same rights of expression by saying Blessed Be, and I want to have the same rights by exercising my freedom to say Jesus is Lord or even Merry Christmas. I respect the rights of all, even when their religious beliefs are different than mine. I expect my religious freedoms and rights also to be respected.

I have no problem with anyone saying Merry Christmas, or whatever else they want to say. I respect all religions, even though I have come across many people who do not show the same curtosy (not talking about anyone inparticular on this board). If someone in a store wishes me a Merry Christmas I say Merry Christmas to you too.

My issue is not with peoples beliefs it is with government sponsorship of religion. I do have issue with my neice and nephew (whom I am responsible for) singing nothing but Christmas Carols at school. I have issue with Children not getting off school for important Jewish holidays, but getting off for all the Christian ones. I really think there needs to be a complete seperation of Church and State. I think it would be healthier all around, but I obviously know it will never happen.

Sorry Alexandra, I think I've gone slightly off your topic.

I think it is a good thought, but I don't think it will happen in this country. The problem is the solstice is a religious holiday itself.

I understand where you are coming from though and it would be nice.

I will back out of the conversation. I don't want to upset anyone or start an argument. I was just adding my opinions.

Your opinions are valuable and I appreciate your perspective Gemstone. I hope you don't back out.

I was raised Christian/Catholic but went to a Jewish nursery school. I still remember making clay dreidels. I appreciate the fact that my parents encouraged me to believe what they believed, but were not closed-minded to other religions. That in itself was a valuable lesson to me about respecting other cultures -- it was more than just lip-service.

I appreciate your input, Gemstone. :-)

> all religions and/or cultures are welcomed in America.

I think that statement would be very controversial especially after 9/11.

> Nobody is hurt by American culture and/or religious beliefs.

And that one too (American Indians, citizens of Iraq)

> If this wasn’t true, then America would be the last place folks would risk their lives to live here.

People risk their lives to live all kinds of places. Iraq, etc...

> Of course Christmas is a worldwide holiday.

Do they celebrate christmas in China? India? Sri Lanka? Do you really think this is true?

I'm not at all saying to outlaw Christmas. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be allowed to celebrate.

> America is a Christian nation.

That statement seems to exclude people of other faiths (Jewish, Islam, Buddist etc) from being 'proper' Americans.

:-(

Isn't what a nation is determined by the make up of its citizens? There are a diversity of faiths in the USA (and indeed in most countries).

I guess I'm all for the seperation of church and state.

Not because I'm a killjoy...

But if the state won't give people a statutary holiday around Jewish, muslim, buddist festivals then why should the state give people a statutary holiday around christian festivals?

Because the majority are christian?

One problem for democracy is the problem of the tyrannical majority (not to suggest the majority are tyrannical). But the problem is that the majority is of course bigger than minority groups and if it is in the interests of the majority to ignore and / or persecute minority groups... Well... Democracy ain't so hot after all (at times). Sigh...

Thanks for the discussion people :-)

Alex said "One problem for democracy is the problem of the tyrannical majority (not to suggest the majority are tyrannical). But the problem is that the majority is of course bigger than minority groups and if it is in the interests of the majority to ignore and / or persecute minority groups... Well... Democracy ain't so hot after all (at times). Sigh..."

so true, so very true........trying being a woman rodeo photographer in a white man's world! and then go do it in the American Indian culture and see where it works...........

"democracy", as some know it, can be mighty disappointing to minorities........

Yeah. It can be hard though... I have sympathy for other political ideologies but I do have to say that with respect to the 'in practice' issue democracy seems to be about the best we have got. But there are downsides... I had a friend who was writing a thesis on 'towards an authentic democracy' where the notion is that for an 'authentic' democracy you need an educated population. Not educated in the traditional sense, but educated in a critical thinking and reflecting sense. There is interesting stuff being done on deliberative democracy at Stanford and the London School of Economics. See, for example:

http://cdd.stanford.edu/

(Though it is mostly about deliberative polling)

Actually, if you've never been to China around December, you'd b in for a big treat. It's TOTALLY ALL ABOUT Christmas in the major cities. More decorated than we do here in the US. Crazy!

i found this interesting. this was in James Madison's time..

"Even the Electoral College was supposed to provide a basis for electors to deliberate (state by state) and choose the most qualified candidates."

because the idea was that the individual wasn't educated enough to decide for himself????............

You know, I also wonder how much of a ruckus we're getting in because of a very small number of people who moan and groan about "merry Christmas".

I mean, I am not Christian but I really don't care if someone sends me a Christmas card with an angel on it ( ) or if I'm at someone's house and they want to pray before dinner. I attended my brother's church concert last week - it was lovely.

I hear lots of people in this thread upset because "But should a person say Merry Christmas, folks are offended." Which folks? I know that it's an item in the news these days but I've never met anyone who was offended at it in my daily life.

Is this really true? On a daily basis, are you running into people who are complaining about someone saying "Merry Christmas", or is the media having us believe that it's more of a problem than it really is?

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I think that statement would be very controversial especially after 9/11.

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There are many Islam mosques in USA.. Are they empty? I think not.. Has any of the mosques been burned down? Seems to me they are doing quite well in USA....

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all religions and/or cultures are welcomed in America.

I think that statement would be very controversial especially after 9/11.

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The point is, many cultures are in the USA... Some may be accepted more than others, but the point is "they are here in the USA"

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Nobody is hurt by American culture and/or religious beliefs.

And that one too (American Indians, citizens of Iraq)

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Seems you are looking for an ideal world . If you find it, please let me know..

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If this wasn’t true, then America would be the last place folks would risk their lives to live here.

People risk their lives to live all kinds of places. Iraq, etc.

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Again if America is so bad for so many, why do they lie, risk their lives just to move to USA? I haven't heard where folks are risking their lives to move and live in other countries. Se
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Do they celebrate christmas in China? India? Sri Lanka? Do you really think this is true?

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Some who celebrate Christmas in China do so after having spent time in Japan where the holiday is becoming a booming business. The small percentage of Chinese who do so, erect artificial trees in their upscale apartments decorated with spangles form southern China's export zone. Christmas trees are called "trees of light" and are also decorated with paper chains, paper flowers, and paper lanterns. Children hang up muslin stockings in hopes that Dun Che Lao Ren (China's Santa) will fill them with presents. Stores have men dressed as Santa Claus handing out candy and waitresses with Santa hats. The booming commercialism which has spread outward from Beijing has been called a Chinese phenomenon. It started out as a friendly gesture or business ploy aimed at Christian visitors.

Because of international influence on her people, India, perhaps, has the most cosmopolitan Christmas in the world. Just to name a few: Christmas trees from Germany, ornaments from America, greeting cards from England, creches from France, books from Greece.

Christmas is set against a background of scarlet poinsettia trees and tropical plants. Children in brightly colored dresses, accompanied by an orchestra of drums and cymbals, perform group dances, using gaily colored sticks as they do their native dances. Gifts are exchanged, especially with children, and servants, except baksheesh, which means coins. In turn, servants present a lemon to the head of the household on Christmas morning, a symbol of high esteem, bearing wishes for a long life and prosperity.

Indian Christians do not believe in short services. The main service on Christmas Day is a midnight one which lasts from two to three hours, with hundred of communicants and many children all massed together on the floor.

In northwest India, the tribal Christians of the Bhil folk, an aboriginal people, go out night after night for a week at Christmas to sing their equivalent of carols the whole night through.

In south India, Christians fill little clay lamps with oil and put a piece of twisted cotton in them for wicks. Towards the evening they light these lamps and place them along the edge of the low flat- roofed houses and along the walls outside, so that the houses twinkle with light. When non- Christians ask about this, it presents an opportunity to share the Christmas story.

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America is a Christian nation. That statement seems to exclude people of other faiths (Jewish, Islam, Buddist etc) from being 'proper' Americans.

:-(

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I am starting to wonder exactly where you live. Because if you lived in the USA, you would know there are Islam mosques, Jewish Synagogues. As for the Buddhists Buddhism in America

(Written by G.R. Lewis)


For the last 16 years, all denominations of the Buddhist religion have experienced an unparalleled growth in the United States of America. From the years 1990 to 2001, Buddhism had grown 170% and transformed itself into the 4th most practiced religion in America.
Interesting isn't it..

Not sure what you mean by "proper Americans".What is a proper American?. Anyway folks that move to USA from Iran, still call themselves Irianians, folks from France, still say they are French, etc. I have never heard they even wanted to be called Americans. Maybe French/American.. German/American except for those who are born in America

Oh.. my x husband who is from Iran would tell folks he was Spanish.. lol... That was in the 80's when Iran held Americans hostage.. I used to laugh and ask him what he would do if folks started talking to him in Spanish.. Maybe he should have moved to Mexico instead of USA.. lol Oo and btw the folks I know from Iran celebrate Christmas. I do believe they would celebrate any holiday in USA because they love to celebrate. Although they do not celebrate as to Christmas being a Christian holiday, but they do the trees and lavish dinners and gift giving.. But of course in Iran they do not celebrate Christmas. If they did they would be hung..

Yeah, I don't know anyone who is offended when people say 'merry christmas' either. I was just thinking about the statutary holidays...

I know there is considerable diversity in the USA.

> Seems you are looking for an ideal world . If you find it, please let me know..

Not looking for it so much as wanting to do what I can to move towards it...

> I haven't heard where folks are risking their lives to move and live in other countries.

You are kidding - right?

That is interesting, I didn't know that Christmas had spread to the east (along with pop music and hollywood movies etc).

>> 'America is a Christian nation'. That statement seems to exclude people of other faiths (Jewish, Islam, Buddist etc) from being 'proper' Americans.

> I am starting to wonder exactly where you live. Because if you lived in the USA, you would know there are Islam mosques, Jewish Synagogues...

I was responding to your comment 'America is a Christian nation'. I was wondering what you meant by that. The majority? With respect to (some) statutary holidays?

I guess I just wonder why in the face of such religious diversity the statutary holidays continue to be the christian notion of christmas. This isn't just about the USA (as I said) the same is true of England, Ireland, Scotland, Whales, Canada, New Zealand, Australia etc...

So...

This isn't at all about who has the 'best' country, it is about an ideal country... If you could create statutary holidays from scratch... How would you do it?

> Of course Christmas is a worldwide holiday.

It seems to be spreading along with western pop culture more generally.

> To replace a worldwide Merry Christmas with a Merry Solstice would not be taken lightly by many.

Would people who are christian take it as an attack on their faith, do you think? Would people not be able to understand that the intention would be to have statutary holidays that were neutral between faiths? Remember, I'm not saying that people shouldn't be allowed to celebrate christmas anymore than I'm saying that people shouldn't be allowed to celebrate whatever they jolly well feel like. I was just suggesting that the statutary holidays be neutral with respect to religion.

> I believe those that want to say Merry Solstice has that right. But I also believe those who want to say Merry Christmas should also have that right.

Of course...

> It rather irks me when my religious beliefs and/or traditions are attacked and when my beliefs are protested against only to be replaced by other’s beliefs.

Is that what you perceive me to be suggesting?

> As Muslim women have the right to wear her hajib and veil...

Yeah. Though have you heard some of the controversy over whether children should be allowed to wear them in schools? Controversy was in France initially, I think, though I've heard it is being picked up on around the world.