solstice

that seems to be what is in common...
in the northern hemisphere anyway lol
i guess the shortest and longest correspond (fairly much) on the different sides of the earth?

http://www.zenzibar.com/articles/christmas.asp

that is why it surprises me how some people choose to boycott halloween...

the origins of christmas (or x-mas where 'x' was a customary abbreviation for krist, khrist, or christ and where it is also the sign of the christian - and roman - cross)

solstice.

happy solstice everyone.

break out the supplies

hrm. since that is what seems to be common to a variety of different faiths (i wonder if there is something occurring around then in most religions?) why not make the official holiday a holiday of the solstice?

then different religions could teach people about the various holidays they have and how they came to be associated with the solstice...

and in the spirit of the seperation of church and state the christian church wouldn't dictate when people had to close their shop or pay overtime or whatever...

Well, the dominant religion does always dominate the nation in which it exists.

Most cultures deal with this well.....America does not.

Solstice celebration was first and the religions that came along after merely jumped on the bandwagon because it was established.

i don't know if there are countries that have roughly equal numbers of different religions.

i think that part of it is about the seperation (or not) of church and state. the statuary holidays and whether things have to close or whether people may choose to work through.

i guess it is a hard one...

i often wonder how hard 'christmas' is for people of jewish faith (and other faiths that don't celebrate jesus) when the traditional stereotype of people not getting into christmas is that they are stingy / not giving /.

more harm than good?

perhaps... probably yes.

yeah, solstice came first... not only that, though, but solstice was about the shortest day. the days would start warming up. i guess that is quite important in those days before central heating and the like.

childrens day? christmas seems to be a day for the kids now fairly much...

i just have trouble with the state supporting / condoning religious holidays because IMHO it is nothing to do with the state and it can be positively harmful for people of different faiths...

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
yeah, solstice came first...

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But GOD created it, so as far as I'm concerned, God STILL holds the trump card.

A lot of Jesus' life and happenings coincided with things that had already been put in place by God's hand. By "coincide" I don't mean they happened by accident. What I mean is that Jesus' life corresponded in/with nature, character, or function. God is the Author of Nature, the Character of it as well as the Function.

That is a nice way of seeing it.

So you (as a christian) wouldn't have a problem with the statutary holidays (ie the state supported holidays) being around the solstice...

And where different people of different faiths could of course celebrate whatever they wanted whenever the wanted (as people who aren't christian do anyrate).

I guess the difference would be... That one religion wasn't prioritised over another and instead the state supported holiday would be based on the original tradition (of celebrating the shortest day)

Also... Us peoples in the southern hemisphere could celebrate the longest day...

And we could do things at the other end too (we often do over here and call it 'mid winter christmas' though isn't that another solstice too???)

I don't know where you live, but in the USA, we have freedom. Freedom to choose or not, a religion. We have freedom to congrate and celebrate.

As long as no one tells me, as a Christian, that I can't celebrate my faith and my religion in the acustomed manner, who am I to say anyone else can't??

If you want to celebrate and worship Satan or a summer solctice or winter solctice, go right ahead! Just don't force it on ME.

Is this once again becoming another thread of argument and denegration of someone's faith AND country???

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Well, the dominant religion does always dominate the nation in which it exists.

Most cultures deal with this well.....America does not.


</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

The facts are the facts. 97% of those living in America believe in God,the vast majority of them believe in the Christian God (our FOUNDING FATHER'S GOD.) And yes, we have freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion, though we allow that. We allow a few million Jewish ppl to worship as they see fit, and we also allow a few million Muslim ppl to worship, even though their text condemns us to death. How is this not addressing cultural differences?

Please stop. This in a non sequitur.

You're talking to Alexandry, right, Sky?

Yes, sorry. I took the allowance of just posting to the last postee (you be a postee?)

I find it difficult to find the good in some talk... though I really do try to.

LOL Don't know about being a "postee"... I'm not yellow and square...

Isn't that a postit? (not to be confused with a posit, which also can be found at PC.)

Doesn't really matter. It can be whatever you want it to be. LOL

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Also... Us peoples in the southern hemisphere could celebrate the longest day...


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are you saying you aren't allowed to do that now? How sad.

Sky, you and I can if we so choose. Maybe Alexandra can't because it hasn't been declared a reason to celebrate where she lives??

Can't anyone celebrate anything, especially if it's within themselves? I know in communist countries (there are still a few) most things are regulated, but within the heart, no man controls...

American Indians celebrate the long days and all. It is not tied to a belief in God, but it also does not dismiss a belief in God and the other celebrations of God imo

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alexandra_k said:
that seems to be what is in common...
in the northern hemisphere anyway lol
i guess the shortest and longest correspond (fairly much) on the different sides of the earth?

http://www.zenzibar.com/articles/christmas.asp

that is why it surprises me how some people choose to boycott halloween...

the origins of christmas (or x-mas where 'x' was a customary abbreviation for krist, khrist, or christ and where it is also the sign of the christian - and roman - cross)

solstice.

happy solstice everyone.

break out the supplies

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Happy solstice, Alexandra(er)

As a wiccan/buddhist(that i follow parts of both) solstices are very important to me!
Merry Yule.

Id like to adress something said by another poster but I will do that in another post.

Ok! I missed the idea of how this correlates with boycotting halloween though

Winter Solstice... now the times get brighter for a bit

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_Sky said:
Is this once again becoming another thread of argument and denegration of someone's faith AND country???

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Well, the dominant religion does always dominate the nation in which it exists.

Most cultures deal with this well.....America does not.


</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

The facts are the facts. 97% of those living in America believe in God,the vast majority of them believe in the Christian God (our FOUNDING FATHER'S GOD.) And yes, we have freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion, though we allow that. We allow a few million Jewish ppl to worship as they see fit, and we also allow a few million Muslim ppl to worship, even though their text condemns us to death. How is this not addressing cultural differences?

Please stop. This in a non sequitur.

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Sky, I have some concern with the way you addressed this. Please dont take offence, that is not the way i mean my concern.

you say:

And yes, we have freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion, though we allow that.

I think (opinion) that in order to have freedom of religeion(sp) we need to foster freedom from religion as well, in that we should be able to practice our individual beilefs without having anothers shoved on to us whether we are any religion. I think this is a big problem, but I have to admit the way you worded it sounded a bit like you were putting down other religions. If I am offending please understand that is not my intent. I wish to understand what brought you to the thoughts you expressed.



We allow a few million Jewish ppl to worship as they see fit, and we also allow a few million Muslim ppl to worship, even though their text condemns us to death. How is this not addressing cultural differences?

The reason I think this doesnt address cultural differences is that again, in the wording of what you say it seems that you are a little overbearing in what you beileve being the true religion, and I dont want to start trouble please understand where I come from. I could be taking this the wrong way altogether, please tell me if I am.

I just think we need to be tolerant without making it seem like we "allow" others to practice.. IT seems a little like you have the idea that by allowing we are doing something graceful and wonderful when it should be something we do without even thinking IMO.

Sky, I know you well from here and I have never seen this side of you and wonder if maybe I am taking what you say too far or wrong? I am having a bad night and i think maybe thats whats going on. Please let me know.

I think we might both be a bit confused.

I took umbrage at the remark against my Country, not against any other religion. My point is that America was established because of the tyranny in England (no offense it was a long time ago) and came here to be able to establish a country that rules through the faith of the Christian God. That we still, in spite of our basic beliefs as Americans, allow others to also worship here, shows that we do address the cultures that live here. Our basic texts and premises of our founding fathers shows the intent of this country, and to this day it remains a Christian country with all it's accoutrements imo. We do not force ppl to worship our God. We do allow others to worship as they wish.

You have to admit it could be that we wouldn't like the muslim faith based upon what is written in their texts...that both Jewish and Christian believers are to be killed in the name of Allah. That's a bit hard to swallow for me

I only know that my faith in my God is the best one for me. I think everyone needs to come to that conclusion for themselves.

I'm not attempting to degrade anybodies beliefs...

The notion around the solstice was that that is the origin of the all of the current religious celebrations (of whatever faith) and it is something that is agnostic both BETWEEN different kinds of religions AND with respect to either theism or atheism. Thus... If the statutary holidays were based around the solstice it would be an agnostic position with respect to WHICH religion and WHETHER it was religious or not.

It is controversial whether the US has freedom OF religion or whether freedom FROM religion is part of that as well. It is actually very controversial indeed.

There are also three different readings of what 'seperation of church and state' could mean.

One is that the state should butt out of religions. Thus the state shouldn't PRESCRIBE statutary holidays on the basis of religion and the state shouldn't fund religious activities either (e.g., the state shouldn't fund welfare via churches)

Another is that religions should butt out of the state. Thus religions shouldn't dictate laws (such as around abortion and sex ed in schoold etc).

Another is... Can't remember... I think there is a wiki article on seperation of church and state though.

Sky...

Please can you give me the benefit of the doubt sweetie? I don't know how many times I have to ask this... But if you find my threads offensive how about just leaving them alone and leaving others to take benefit from them?

Just because the majority of people in a society might be of one faith... I fail to see how that justifies the society prescribing the holidays of the majority as the statutory holidays for all...

I'm not saying that christians shouldn't be allowed to celebrate. And I'm not saying that everybody should be forced to celebrate some pagan version of the solstice.

What I am saying is... Are people who aren't christian allowed to continue trading? Are they forced to send their children to school (by law) on their religious holidays? If so... Then that sounds like the state prescribing holidays on the basis of religious faith to me... The US isn't alone in doing that... In the southern hemisphere our stat days are based around christmas and easter too... Even though our rates of atheism / agnosticism are higher.

Sky, thank you so much for clarifying that for me. I was confused as to your point and you make it MUCH easier for me to understand in that last post. And thank you for not taking offence to me questioning you.

I LOVE when people can discuss things like this without getting riled. Its a hard topic but when people work together we can usually come to some conclusion like we did. Again I thank you.

yw.

as for the </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Just because the majority of people in a society might be of one faith... I fail to see how that justifies the society prescribing the holidays of the majority as the statutory holidays for all...

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> When someone (ignorantly) says something I feel another person has just as much right to state the facts. This isn't attacking imo. This has become, once again, political though.

What you are addressing is our way of government... no other country had it's start like the USA did, for those reasons and in this way. Of course we don't expect others to understand how it is, democracy this way. Majority rules. If the other 3% of the population who don't believe in God wish to live here and enjoy the benefits of this great nation, we allow it. But we do ask that we not be bashed for doing so..

what did you take to be ignorant?

is december 25th and easter monday statutary holidays in the US or not? are people not of christian faith allowed to continue trading and attending school on december 25th and easter monday or not?

the USA isn't the only country that has a democratic structure...

and as i said nz and australia have the same statutary holidays. i'm certainly not bashing the us. i was suggesting a change was all.

also...

as i said it is very controversial (in the us as well) whether all that is promised is freedom OF religion or whether it includes freedom FROM religion.

i understand that you interpret it as the former...

but there are plenty of people in the us who think it intends the latter...

and it is very controversial.

even if all that was intended was freedom OF and not freedom FROM you don't think that church and state should be seperate so that people who aren't christian are allowed to continue trading etc and have their religious holidays (or alternative holidays) instead?

Ignorant?

How so?

Now Sky, some of your statements have been quite inappropriate and even inaccurate. I can hardly even SEE you way up on that high horse.

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_Sky said:
Is this once again becoming another thread of argument and denegration of someone's faith AND country???

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Well, the dominant religion does always dominate the nation in which it exists.

Most cultures deal with this well.....America does not.


</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

97% of those living in America believe in God,the vast majority of them believe in the Christian God (our FOUNDING FATHER'S GOD.) And yes, we have freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion, though we allow that. We allow a few million Jewish ppl to worship as they see fit, and we also allow a few million Muslim ppl to worship, even though their text condemns us to death.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Den says:

Well, of course, we DO have freedom FROM religion as well as freedom OF religion--and that's a very good thing.

BUT, it is sad that we must constantly fight for this freedom FROM religion due to overzealous religionists who would PUSH their particular system upon others.

If you believe our founding fathers were all Christian you've been listening to too much Christian radio. You heard of the Jefferson Bible, by any chance? Do read it, it might help.

Can you back up your statement about the "Muslim Text" condemning you to death? I assume you mean the Koran. That makes your statement a false attack on a major religion and millions of people. Cite your source (in context) as proof or retract your statement..

America does not handle religion well. That is obvious from the way it insinuates itself into politics. I offer you the current frenzy about a Muslim swearing into the congress with the Koran as an example. We could use a lot less foaming at the mouth by religious zealots about non-issues like this. All they do is encourage religious bigotry.

No, America surely does not handle religion well, possibly because the dominant religion seems determined to walk all over all other religions.

We are indeed fortunate to be protected by a good constitution.