Questions welcome

WOW is right

Thanks, Coral

I wanted to respond to a few things you said. You say that "everyone, regardless of their choices and beliefs, is a beloved son or daughter of my father in heaven" While it is true that God does love them and Christ did die for them (john 3:16-17) Romans 9:8 says, "they which are the children of the flesh, these are NOT the children of God" you also refered to an after death oppourtunity for choosing Christ based on "fairness" what would be fair is for us to pay the wages of sin which is death...that would be fair (Romans 6:23 )says ,"for the wages of sin is death,but the gift of God is eternal life thru Jesus Christ our Lord" also, in Hebrews 9: 27 it says " and as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement." It sure seems pretty plain to me, we get ONE chance! Galations 1:8 says, "but though we,or any angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" you may feel as though these are my interpretations of these verses, I feel as though the context is accurate...read it for yourself !

I hope that I'm answering all of your questions adequately. Please do be patient with me, as I'm trying to keep up here and IRL too. There never seems to be enough time to go around. If anyone else has answers, feel free to jump in too (as long as it is respectful to all).

Phil, I'll start with yours. I do believe that people will be held accountable for what they do know, and for the choices that they have knowingly made. There are some things that I don't know how anybody could not know are good, bad, ethical, unethical, etc. Yes, we will all be accountable for those things and for anything else that we have been rightly taught. But anything that we weren't taught in this life, we will have the opportunity to learn. Those who didn't have the gospel will be able to receive it. And it is important to repent during this life for the things that we have knowingly done wrong (or should have known).

KathyM, I am very sorry about the treatment that your son is receiving from his officer. Any kind of mistreatment of anybody has never been condoned by the LDS church. I have heard it taught (a long time ago) that the spirits who are born to the black race were among the less valient in the pre-existance, or at least once they were. Usually that was accompanied by a statement that those less valient spirits are no longer here, as we are in the last days, and only the most valient were saved for these times. I know nothing about those who lived before my lifetime, and can't comment on that.

It is true that black men didn't receive the priesthood until 1978. It is also true that prior to the restoration, only members of the tribe of Levi held the priesthood. The priesthood is a blessing that one can use to help others, but it is not necessary to hold the priesthood in order to enjoy salvation or the blessings of the gospel. Its only appropriate use is for the benefit of someone else. When the tribes of Israel all lived together in a close community, it was not needed for every household to have the priesthood within that household. Also, when members of the church mostly lived in a concentrated area all near each other, everyone didn't need to have the priesthood. In modern times, it is more desirable for all worthy males to have the priesthood so that everyone has access to those blessings.

It is also possible that the early church leaders (the LDS church was established not long before the American Civil War) were influenced by the attitudes that they grew up with and which predominated in the country at that time. Maybe they were in error to prohibit ordination to the priesthood based on race (or maybe it was necessary to avoid being drawn into the Civil War, or to avoid increased persecution at that time). Maybe our leaders were slow to change. Even prophets are not perfect and are capable of making mistakes. Personally, I don't know for sure what the real reasons were. But most Mormons even in Civil War times abhored slavery, and Black people were always welcome as members of the church. Individual people might have had prejudices of their own, but the church never supported slavery.

I have always known a few members of the church who were Black. There are several where I live now. They enjoy full fellowship and are equal to anyone else. The ones that I have gotten to know are really neat people, and I am glad to count them as friends.

And back to Eddie, I have to admit that I am not very familiar with Onan, and would have to do some research to address that question much more. I understand that it was the custom at that time for a brother to marry his brother's widow and to give his brother progeny. It would have been a gross violation of social custom not to do that. Part of the reason was to provide for the widow (which Judah's sons didn't do very well). I don't know how much choice they had, or how much choice anyone really had about marriage in those times. Marriage didn't seem to be about love, at least most of the time. I wouldn't have liked it eithere, but maybe they didn't know any different. Even if Onan was required to marry his brother's widow, also remember that men were permitted to have several wives, so he could have given her the place that she was entitled to, and still had another wife and raised progeny of his own.

Not everything is going to make sense to us. Especially when the world that we live in today is so different from back then. We are much more individualistic now, for better or for worse. I don't know anything about the fear regarding spilling the seed being continued into modern times.

My thing was not really so much them thinking masturbation was a sin or birth control, but they followed the law of taking the brothers wife religiously up until after the wild west days.

There is a series on HBO called Dead Wood, were the sheriff in the town struggled with this law since he was really in love with another women. I guess I should do some more research to find out when it actually stopped and why.

Far as having several wives go's, though there were some in the bible who did, not everyone practiced it.
"To me" if it were really something God "wanted",then Adam would have had 2 or more and Noah would have,since I could see more the necessity for that then, than now needing to populate the world and all,not that I have a problem with it though. I'd have to research it to see but maybe this family did not practice having more than one wife, I don't think it was that common or more denominations would agree, that is what the bible condones,though I do know it is practiced in the bible, at least one I can think of off the top of my head.

One of our favorite series on HBO is Big Love, this portrays the prophet on the show as the bad guy though, but its still a great show, the main guy has three wifes and they live outside the compound in three seperate houses side by side that share a back yard,but the prophet always fights to control everyones wealth and this guy stands alone,even though one of his wives is the prophets daughter.

Well my kids are up, gotta go see what Santa brought.

Rapunzel, just before the story of Onan, Jacob and Esau have mention of wives(I know u already know)
I don't see nothing wrong with this,if it is what they "want" or others want,still to me it is not reason enough to take Tamar and have children if he did not "want" to, even if he could have took another wife. I only see mention of Judah having one after a quick reread though.

I am going to dig deep into the many wives condoning in the bible to understand it though now.

I'm sure it is appealing to "allot" of men that won't admit it

I don't see the reasoning behind it now of days though, but do during biblical times.

Romans 1: 18-20 says, " for the wrath of God is revealed in heaven against all ungodlyness and unrightousness of men who hold the truth in unrightousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God HATH shown it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen being understood by the things that are made,even his eternal power and Godhead so that they are without excuse.

I'm not big on quotes without ones comprehension of it followed, thats just me, though I am comfortable saying I can comprehend this, I am not a big fan of Jonathan Edwards style wrath of God teaching, personaly

With just quotes some may miscomprehend, contradict with another quote sometimes, or not even comprehend. Which sometimes leaves wheels spinning and gears shifting in my opinion.

I like to hear ones comprehension elaborated, whether or not I agree, so I am not left in the dark as to where they are coming from, since allot of the time there is no definitive answer in my opinion.

here is someones in depth "comprehension" in laymens terms www.awmi.net/bible/rom_01_18 for some that may be interested in ones preception of this quote

here's anothers in depth "comprehension" saying most readers consider this the bibles clearest condemnation of homosexuals

www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6289

probably this can be comprehended or even contradicted in other ways as well......imo

You mentioned (asking) why Baptists don't teach about differing levels of kingdoms, it is because Baptists don't see the different Kingdoms AS levels, but rather on an encompassing area. Everyone is part of one of the Kingdoms, but only those who accept Christ are in the other Kingdom.

Some Baptists (there are over 80 different organizations of Baptists btw) believe the Kingdom of Heaven refers mainly to the earthly kingdom, and the Kingdom of God refers to the spiritual kingdom. Neither are mutually exclusive.

The general belief is that all of God's creation is within the realm of the kingdom of God. It is the Kingdom of Heaven that refers to those who have accepted Christ and are assured of heaven when they die. So the kingdom of heaven lives "within" the kingdom of God, so to speak.

Regarding the supposed use of cannabis, I, along with scores of Bible scholars do not believe that is the word used in Scripture.

In the Bible the herb is calamus and is "A sweet cane of Palestine - Song of Solomon 4:14; Ezekiel 27:19;
The claims that the King James translators mistranslated the Hebrew word "qaneh" (pronounced "Kaw-neh")is almost laughable to me. You don't have to be a scholar to understand the truth, all you need is the Holy Spirit of God (John 16:13). The claims refer to Exodus 30:23, that "calamus" was actually "kineboisin" --which is the Hebrew word for cannabis (hemp, or marijuana).

What is believed about the judgments can be confusing, but that doesn't mean that author contradicted himself. It doesn't have to be confusing.

What is generally believed by Baptists and Presbyterians and Protestants in general is thus:

A person who accepts Christ's payment on the cross for sin, will not be judged for sin with regards to heaven or hell, because Christ will stand before God and say that HE has redeemed the person. (Concept of redemption is interesting.) What will be "judged" is the good work we do FOR Christ, after we accept Him: our life as Christians. To that extent, we will be given "crowns" which we later throw at His feet in adoration. The less "good work" done, the fewer crowns to throw.
Those who do not accept Christ ARE judged as to whether they will continue in the presence of God or not (not.) Those who have REJECTED Christ's redeeming blood on the cross cannot enter heaven nor live in the presence of God.

I do personally believe that everyone's name is written in the book of life, but is removed when the person dies without Christ. This does show the potential for each person to come to the knowledge of God. (I do believe there are those who are not redeemable. But I personally believe these are not "human beings" as I am.)

I think we will all be judged, but not alike, as I state above.


This is from the book of Revelation, eschatology, and not for light reading, imo.

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I don't understand why God would make a text so hard for
simple people to understand, it literally takes scholars to answer these common questions rationally

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First Corinthians 2:14 explains why some people can't comprehend the Bible fully.

King James Version: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (Spiritual discernment comes from the Holy Spirit.)

Students of Christian belief say that until a person does have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, they can't understand God's Word and His dealings with mankind. When one accepts Christ, then the Holy Spirit indwells them, sealing their souls until the day of redemption, when Christ claims them for Himself.

It's fathomous this Mind of God even as a Christian. Before I became a Christian, I couldn't figure anything out on my own when it came to God's Word, though I studied it for years as a lost person.

BTW there are no contradictions in God's Word. If you can refer to the Greek languages and the Hebrew of those times, you will see that the issues come from (especially) the Greek language having many more definitive words for things that (in particular) the English language has one word for. Concepts are different at times too. But His Word remains true and unreproachable, imo. You can read it in many different languages and see the true meanings in fact. Even so, the overall text of Scripture stays the same.

Can you be clearer as to what your question is with regard to Jesus' geneology? Is this just questioning Mormonism?

Both Joseph and Mary are of the House of David. However, none of Joseph's blood was in Christ, as it comes from the father of the child, in this instance being God.

For me, I believe Scripture when it tells of God's wrath, and all should be literally afraid of it if they are not one of His own. There is nothing else to do with those verses but believ them...and many there are of them to read. That the Scripture denotes anthromorphological attributes to God (as in He is a "jealous" God etc) makes it very easy to understand (for me.) Sometimes we forget that we are made in God's image, not He ours. So if we can become angry, surely God can also! He threw Lucifer out of heaven didn't He?

It is much easier to post a Scriptural verse that explains a question, without a man's interpretation, since mankind tends to argue with what another PERSON says, when his argument is really with God, imo.

Do Mormons refer to the heavens as their kingdoms? (Such as John being caught up into the 3rd heaven, you would refer to that as a kingdom?)

Oh my ....

Now I see why so many people turn away from God .... I always wondered why so many were raised by God fearing and devout Christians were scared to death and had so many problems.

I'm obviously damned and will go to hell ......

Here's me thinking that I loved God and I pray in MY way so I could feel safe and he would answer my prayers to help me and others ..... now I'm not so sure.....

Seems I should be afraid because I dont conform to his ways exactly how I should

downer ......

Jin x

Sky

In my opinion ...it all go's back to faith,if you believe everything you read, or hear at church " before you read or hear it " you will not question anything,to me that does not mean one without faith,or with inquisition don't comprehend it,or one with faith will comprehend it the same.

To say most people with true faith would be able to explain the contradiction rationally in the genealogy as not a contradiction is OBSERD, except to just say,well there is no contradictions,the book is inflawable.

Atleast they took time to understand both sides.

It takes research IMO, thats why I try to find both sides of the fence on these type things so I could have a clear understanding of where one is comeing from if I ever was to become a fisher of men and was asked a question like this, I'd atleast know what I was talking about,without just saying, well ya gotta have TRUE faith.....if you don't "understand/comprehend/agree" with me, then your faith must not be TRUE...bla bla bla bla (all just my opinion)

Then why do so many that have faith comprehend so many scriptures/quotes so drasticlly different?

Why don't God just give everyone with faith the same comprehension so they dont have to separate into so many different denominations?

Far as the cannabis use go's that was just interesting to me,even if that one thing is not correct even though they seem to think it is,they have ALLOT more reasons from what I read to comprehend and believe what they do,as do Jewish,Muslim,Buddist etc,etc.etc

So why do you and only those that agree with you have the monopoly on the TRUE faith Sky that seems to be the only one with comprehension skills ?

These were all retorical questions just for the record since you already made what "you" believe clear.

I was just sharing my opinion and how I feel about it

Sorry if this seems fecisious it is not my intention,I understand you have diehard beliefs and respect that,good luck on your missions and fishing trips

To anyone:
Does the untranslated scrolls or bible condone the brutal killing of "SO MANY" that King James thought were witches,making it probably the most bloody time in history for this,mainly just dealing with his trip to marry Anne, and fear that the storm that almost killed him on his way to marry her was because of "sorcery", and not just nature.

Or did King James or his translators just miscomprehend that part about sorcery because his/their faith was not true at that point ?

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You also asked about (Matthew 7:13-14) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be that go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

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Rap, can you give us the steps to salvation according to your LDS beliefs?

Sky, can you do the same according to our Presbeterian/Protestant beliefs?

Alton, I believe as strongly as you do in all the Scriptures you've quoted.

This one, however, seems to be the defining Scripture:

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Hebrews 9: 27 it says " and as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement." It sure seems pretty plain to me, we get ONE chance!

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I believe that there is more enlightenment once we pass into the spirit world. We see and understand our deads on Earth, but we sealed our spiritual fate while we were in the physical world; either we accepted Christ and his blood attonment of us and our sins, or... we didn't. The Holy Scriptures are pretty clear to me.

Hi Tomi, and welcome to this thread.

The most basic answer to your question about the steps to salvation is found in the Fourth Article of Faith:
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We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

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Any of those steps can be studied in more detail. If you are interested, here is the link to the Articles of Faith, with links to more on all of the concepts included:
http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1/1-13#1

Here is a more detailed explanation of the Plan of Salvation (start with this page and follow the links from there):
http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basi...venly-father#d

I'll try to summarize also, but would recommend reading the above.

God is the father of our spirits and wants us to return to him. Some things were necessary for us to continue our progression. We needed to come to earth to get physical bodies, as well as to learn and to be tested and find out what choices we would make when we are outside the presence of God, without the memory of our previous existance. Some spirits for one reason or another do not need to be tested, and may only be here to get a body, or to teach the rest of us. They might die before reaching the age of accountability, or may have a disability that prevents them from being accountable in this life. The rest of us need to learn about God and about Jesus Christ, and about faith, and choices and consequences, and accountablity, among other things.

We lived with God, and the Earth was created for us to have the opportunity to gain bodies, like His, and experience that would help us to become more like Him. We chose to come to Earth for these purposes. Adam and Eve were placed on the Earth first, in the Garden of Eden. They had physical bodies, but were immortal. They were commanded not to eat the forbidden fruit, and also commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. They couldn't have children in their immortal state, however, and couldn't experience opposition in the garden. They chose to eat the fruit so that they could keep the commandment and we could all come to earth and be mortal, in accordance with the plan. Yes, it seems like Satan was used to move things along. Satan must not have quite understood the whole plan, or maybe he was anxious to get things moving too. I don't completely understand.

We make some good choices and some bad choices in this life. Because we are not capable of redeeming ourselves, Jesus was sent to attone for our sins. We owe Him everything for what He did for us, and accepting His gift is essential if we are to return to God's presence.

We are also required to do what we are able to do for ourselves. When we make bad choices we need to repent:
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To sincerely repent, you must:

Confess the sin to both God and anyone who has been harmed by your sin.
Ask forgiveness from God and from anyone you have harmed.
When possible, repair the damage you have done.
Forsake your sins.
Strive to keep the commandments.

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When we die, our spirits go to the spirit world, until we are ressurected and again are reunited with our physical bodies, which will be perfected and immortal. Those who didn't learn about the atonement on Earth will have the opportunity to learn in the spirit world.

While everyone will be ressurected and receive immortal bodies, eternal life is not a given and we must be obedient in order to receive it. We will each be judged, and we will remember all of the things that we have done. If we have repented, the Lord will not remember those things and they will not count against us. My feeling, persnally, about this process is that He will sit with us and discuss how we have lived our lives, and have us account for what we have done and, more importantly, who we have become. He will then help us to choose where we belong for the rest of eternity, whether we are able to be in the presence of God and continue on to become like Him, or if we would be most comfortable at another level, where we will still be happy, but won't have the same opportunity for eternal progression.

Everything that I have said is my understanding and I believe that it is true. It may be an oversimplification though, and I am subject to errors, so I do urge you to go to the source, do your own research, and most importantly, pray and ask God what is true regarding His plan. He will answer you, and that is much more important than anything that I could say or do.

There are other questions here that I need to answer also. Sky, thanks for your input too. The same for everyone else who has either asked questions or answered them. I need to take a break now and will get back to this later.

Rap

GREAT site on putting the bible into perspective far a things such as contradictions go, not one sided (IMO)also has a link to great info on mysteries of Mormonism and more near the bottom, this is a GREAT read for anyones prespective in my poinion, no one has to agree though

www.wordwiz72.com/bible.html

I think that if the original scrools were translated and translated, until King James commisioned 54 to translate,
the fact they all agreed to kill sorceres/witches is a blatent contradiction to thou shalt not kill, just my opinion,and the fact that King James authorized these killing sprees is a negative reflection on him, all just my opinion

However here is a great site on English bible translation history to those who would like to learn how it came to be the King James version

www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/

Also it is important to note that some defenders of King James have made debates in his defence,that he regreted letting it get out of control, I guess he even knew everyone killed could not be a witch,but I have yet to find anything saying he quit believing in them or actually tried to end the hunts completly,since they did not subside till long after his death

I am still researching this though,and have not read all his writings yet,non the less he still miscomprehended the bible,in my opinion.

Or did he ?????

here is a site implying this

www.geocities.com/athens/parthenon/2891/witches.html