Jewish Publication Society Tanakh (1917)

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Normally, this post would be the kind I might make in the schizophrenia topic, however, since the issue was raised here and others will read it here, it seems more appropropriate to address it here.

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September Morn: hmmm... I used to be married to a schizophrenic... your description sure doesn't fit him!

Maybe he was "broken" but he enjoyed "breaking" others all too well. Evil and twisted if you ask me.


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I'm sorry to hear you were married to someone you considered to be evil and twisted, September Morn. Most people with a diagnosis of schizophrenia do not fit that profile.

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Violence and schizophrenia: examining the evidence

Although people with schizophrenia are significantly more likely to be violent than people who are not schizophrenic the actual proportion of violent crime that is committed by people with schizophrenia is less than 10%. This is one of the conclusions of a research study undertaken by the Section of Forensic Medicine at the Institute of Psychiatry.

The study analysed previous research work and found that 8% of those with schizophrenia alone are violent compared with 2% of the general population. Misuse of drugs was found to be a key risk factor with 30% of schizophrenics who also abuse drugs behaving violently.

Other risk factors in determining the risk of someone with schizophrenia behaving violently were found to include:
[*] Young age [*] Low socio-economic status[*] Male gender

Previous violent behaviour
These risk factors apply to the general population as well as those with schizophrenia. One risk factor unique to schizophrenics is the presence of severe psychotic symptoms. During severe episodes schizophrenics often feel that someone is controlling their thoughts or trying to harm them. It is thought that this can lead to violent acts.

Whilst there is a clear link between schizophrenia and violence <font color=red>the authors stress that annually 99.97% of those with schizophrenia will not be convicted of a violent crime</font> and argue that communication of the facts about schizophrenia and violence will help to tackle the stigma associated with the condition.

Source: Schizophrenia &amp; Violence


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The mentally ill are no more violent that those who carry no diagnosis.

- Dr. John Grohol

... It's time that, as a society, we begin to knock down stereotypes and start breaking down the stigma associated with mental disorders. The first stereotype to go down -- permanently, we hope -- is that people who suffer from depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, an eating disorder, or any other type of mental disorder, are somehow more violent than others. This simply isn't true, unless they are involved in substance abuse. Use and abuse of substances such as drugs or alcohol is often correlated with an increase in violence anyway (e.g., due to impaired judgment).

Violence is most often a criminal activity which has little correlation with a person's mental health. Most people who suffer from a mental disorder are not violent -- there is no need to fear them. Embrace them for who they are -- normal human beings experiencing a difficult time, who need your open mind, caring attitude, and helpful support.

Source: Dispelling the Myth of Violence


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See also: Violence and Mental Illness - Dr. John Grohol

im sorry... i failed to also thank Dr. Phil.. thank you Dr. Phil : ) may the future be bright : )

Stigmas and sterotypes.... so distructive. Giving people reason to hate and discount. I know those effects too well.

I'm sorry people accept the stereotypes without challenging them with accurate information.

Mentally ill, ethnic minorities, women all continue to be marginalized based on ignorate sterotypes and unsubstantiated assumptions.

It's deprives our world and our societies from knowing the blessing of unconditional love and true freedom for all and appreciation for diversity in all its forms.

I make this statement from Dr. G my prayer.....

Embrace them for who they are -- normal human beings experiencing a difficult time, who need your open mind, caring attitude, and helpful support.

Thank you SE for helping to dispell the myths. I suspect for the most part you are preaching to the choir but sadly there are some who are trapped in the stereotypes. May they have eyes to see and ears to hear the balance and harmony that comes with acceptance and tolerance and unconditional love.

Bless you SE.

Thank You KathyM.. with all my heart and soul... you are not forgotten...

Say what you want but *I* lived with the man... err... creature. I could tell when he was going into an episode and I feared for my life as well as that of my two children. When I finally set up things so that he would move out of our home (physical protection for my children and I), he did some really strange, dangerous things that I don't care to recount.

That same day, he visited friends that I didn't know he knew I had and told them that *I* was schizophrenic, to stay away from me and that *I* was dangerous!

I'll leave out the rest of the horrible story and spare everyone the trigger.

Sanityseeker - I agree. The stigma and stereotyping of mental illness is VERY destructive and serves no one.

S.E. - I'm a little confused about the statement in your post about violence and schizophrenia - i.e., what constitutes "drug" use and abuse? It looks like they are referring only to illegal street drugs.

Many legal pharmaceuticals (anti-depressants, anti-anxiety, sleep aids, pain meds, etc.) can cause irritability or confusion to the point of violence and/or twisted behavior. They can also be easily abused, and not enough is known about the effects of mixing "mind-altering" chemicals in the body. If that's the case, a huge portion of our population would be at risk of being perceived as twisted and/or evil.

September... it is terrible that you've had this experience with this specific individual...

thankfully you've found a place of relative safety for the children... they are so important...

((((septembermorn)))))

Sad to hear your story....... yet generalizations can be harmful and that is the point being made here as we've travelled off-topic to respond to your blanket assumptions.

Hope you can see that not all schizophrenics are your ex-husband. Just as not all women are like you or me. We each have our own unique experience. Regardless of who you are and the challenges you live with you deserve equal treatment and equal regard as a viable human being worthy of support and compassion.

that statement belongs here sanityseeker... thank you very muc.. i do hope we could all see each other as living breathing feeling individuals with our own uniques set of experiences that have guided and shaped us...

i pray that myself, others within my community can grapple with these tough topics and find peace and healing within them....

thank you...

KathyM.... you make an important point. Abuse of drugs of any kind will cause any of us to get sicker and be counter productive to any treatment plan.

So much of the problem with drug mis-use can be traced to the poor quality follow-up and monitoring of med uses and the lack of family supports. I know in my country that our medical system is too backed up to provide proper care with the use of psych drugs. It very sad to see how impacted people are by poor quality health care. Docs passing out samples rather than taking the time to make a proper diagnosis. It happened to me. I mentioned I was depress and haunted by sounds in my head.... Before I could say anymore he'd opened his drawer thrown a few high powered psych meds on the table and said 'try these' .... they may help. Then he looked up and said...."Any thing else?"

I just walked away and went back to smoking pot till I dropped. I found my way out of the maze but not with the help of the docs or their drugs. I know meds work for those who have good doctor care and followup support. Yet for too many of us this is not the case and if we take the meds we are dombed to abuse. We often come looking for help only after having already abused street drugs.

They just add insult to injury and then wonder why we go crazy.

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Thank you sanityseeker for understanding and noting that I may be preaching to the choir. You're probably right. I'm certain most of the people here do understand.

September Morn: Say what you want but *I* lived with the man... err... creature.

Thank you. What I did say was this: I'm sorry to hear you were married to someone you considered to be evil and twisted, September Morn.

My own mother was married to someone who was in all probability, a psychopath. It bears repeating that "psycho" is not the equivalent of "psychotic". My father was not "schizophrenic" he was just someone who would hurt people as a means of trying to control them. Fortunately, she left him, moved on, and created a better life for herself and her children.

I'm certain you're also aware there is a schizophrenia topic here where you can share your concerns in more depth if you feel it would be helpful to you or others. I would ask that you try to be sensitive to those who participate and read there on a regular basis. Many of them already feel that they may be evil or horribly flawed in some manner. They may arrive in a state when they have no ego boundaries or those boundaries are very weak. As a result, your words might sink very deep -- it's comparable to kicking someone and kicking someone when they're down. Both hurt, but one is harder to recover from, and recover is what they're trying to do.

KathyM: S.E. - I'm a little confused about the statement in your post about violence and schizophrenia - i.e., what constitutes "drug" use and abuse? It looks like they are referring only to illegal street drugs.

That's a good question Kathy and an equally valid point. Many legal drugs can also produce alterations in behavior, including psychiatric medications. I'm not aware of any studies that have sought to separate drug reactions into legal and street drugs.

Meanwhile, I suggest that if anyone feels a need to discuss this further, that we shift the discussion to the schizophrenia topic. I was rather enjoying the way this thread had been going and would like to see it return to that intent.

Music of the Hour:

[A song for M, who once sang it and doesn't sing it anymore.]

well... im certain we all want to feel better... we need help sometimes... but i see what you mean... there really isnt a 'one cure fits all' ... for me, what i'm currently working out, is how i am a self, separate from others in my own space and body, but i am also a connected individual to all the other individuals that surround me... not one of us is the same as the next... even in twins...

so, imo, like it or not.. we are all on our own path at the same time as sharing a larger path with others... like it or not...

personally... i think its better to like it...

as for the 'quick cure' itself.... i agree.... lets be careful...

so for me... again, as an individual, the process, which cycles as the spirit and soul work progresses, i attempt to be aware of a few basic things on the journey.. that others are also on their own unique and individual path.. and simultaneously, to help us both get to that place we ar going.... a little helping hand, sandwich, drink of water is ...... just plain smarter, imo....

to give when able.... nothing more complicated than this is required or needed imo.... just simple caring about us all... we are all together... we all have suffered imo..

Thanks NWTR - I enjoy sharing a snack with you along the way too.

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NW: one of my favorite parts of the thread is Ode XI...

If you click on the link provided at the bottom of that passage, you'll be taken to the website of the Nag Hammadi Library. I've especially enjoyed reading The Gospels of Thomas, The Gospels of Mary, The Hymn of the Pearl and the very powerful, Thunder, Perfect Mind.

many thanks SE

bookmarked it... here it is if others would like to do the same....

shade and a sandwich... and something to read... thanks all

many thanks SE

bookmarked it... here it is if others would like to do the same....

shade and a sandwich... and something to read... thanks all

http://www.webcom.com/gnosis/naghamm/thunder.html

I grow weary of your debates. And also of how what I share is always picked apart as unbelievable due to some agnostic opinions of long ago, and yet am quoted to death of other's sayings which appear to be taken as truth word for word. I often wonder how someone determines that only what they find to read is truth, and nothing else. How can anyone believe anything written, if they have such paranoia of words?

I continue to try to understand the thinkings that pervade this forum all in the name of spiritual support, and having an excellent background in not only how philosophizing works, but also of spiritual things yet I continually find it lacking of any spiritual support for me. One would think (would that be me?) that with such heavy heads certainly cognitions of value would at least arise occasionally?

Perhaps the entrance of the topic of schizophrenia into a thread such as this is not so far off topic as it would first seem to those not so afflicted. I know of one member in this thread so suffering, but perhaps there are more and thus I should know this to help with my evaluation of self involvement for ever in the future.

Thus saith me.

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Sky: I grow weary of your debates.

I hadn't considered that we were debating. I was under the impression we were all sharing. Obviously, we have some different opinions and interpretations on things but I hadn't imagined that anyone was somehow going to emerge from the topic with the label of "winner".

Perhaps the entrance of the topic of schizophrenia into a thread such as this is not so far off topic as it would first seem to those not so afflicted.

The obvious point for me -- perhaps not so obvious for others -- is that those of you who study scripture are studying the words of those who would be considered schizophrenic by today's standards, within this particular culture. Religious content is so common within the schizophrenic experience it's considered one of the hallmark identifying characteristics. Moses, Buddha, Jeremiah... they would be considered to be suffering from delusions in today's climate. So no, it doesn't strike me as at all unusual that it would be part of the conversation.

But that's just me. You may have a different perspective.

Sky - This is a thread to support NWTR. I realize what I posted has nothing to do with the title of the thread, but NWTR has told us previously he enjoys the conversations (not debates). I don't see why the mention of schizophrenia would bother anyone - it's just an illness. What S-E. posted had to do with the conversation at hand, and what I posted had to do with S.E.'s post. What I posted weren't merely just words either - it was truth from what I've lived and seen in my life. If you'll notice, S.E. has already directed further discussion of schizophrenia to another section.

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KathyM: You are the epitome of valid points. Yes, of course, you are right. NW began this thread and asked others: i wondered if anyone else had time to read and share what it causes them to feel and think or means to them....

He did not ask for debate, but to share what the passage caused the reader to feel and think, as well as share what it personally means to them. To me, that invites exploration that encourage the reader and participants to come to their own conclusions. I believe it's been mentioned elsewhere that there are other sites that are more suitable for those who wish to debate.

It's also worth noting: This forum was created to provide a place for support through spirituality and support for mental health issues that involve spirituality.

As noted, it does not surprise me that the topic of schizophrenia would come up but we are not discussing the specifics of schizophrenia here. However, it's possible we are discussing the content of the schizophrenic experience.

Meantime Sky, if this particular topic isn't meaty enough for you I suggest any of the following books by Edward Edinger:

- Answer to Job
- Transformation of the God Image
- Ego and Archetype
- Archetype and the Apocalypse

The last one makes an especially handy companion for the Book of Revelations.

KathyM and SE... i woke this morning, went thru a series of self checks, as i always do... ran thru my mind some left over thoughts from yesterday (bringing the relative attachments into today) and pondered the worth of all the work required to feel better....

well... guess i could make a choice to stay the same... but that never worked for me....

some people you just cant reach... what we seem to have here, is a failure to communicate....

it seems that some are determined to lead others into some personal direction.. yanking and pulling.. prodding and pushing.. none of us here of course ..

you both are correct... i had hoped to share in an open minded and objective discussion relative to an ancient text and a current predicament.... for the most part, ive been able to and with help have enjoyed some personal growth and enlightenment both by the conversation itself and the information links provided here....

i, like many others, simply cannot fathom why we, who choose to develop a personal and self made connection to Spirit and Spirits gifts, are cast out and put upon as tho we intend some malicious harm to others, and in the very process, are the recipients of abuse by some of those whom claim to be the Very Doves' messengers...

what really stupefies me the most, is the blinded gilders some continue to wear despite overwhelming evidence of a systems' shortcomings and failures... pointing fingers and throwing stones, while their own house is made of glass..

just doesnt make sense to me.....

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are the recipients of abuse by some of those whom claim to be the Very Doves' messengers...

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the blinded gilders some continue to wear despite overwhelming evidence of a systems' shortcomings and failures... pointing fingers and throwing stones, while their own house is made of glass..


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You talkin' to me? Then say so in PM.

I think it applies to you too. My "discussion" isn't accepted. I will not bother any of you again with any of my thoughts, since obviously they aren't included in your speakings of everything in general, except acceptance of anything I say. Pardon me, I'm not schizophrenic.

Seems you judge me all the time, as I am not allowed an off day, nay not even a minute. Can't share that I don't get what you say and why you are so judgmental while you declare you aren't and I am.

I was trying to discuss things, but the topic goes which way and that and the only time you complain is if I say something you don't understand and/or take offense at.

The whole affair saddens me greatly. But then, I guess it is the way of the world.

Thanks for all the spiritual support I haven't received, though needy. Seems ppl keep putting me on the pedastal they think I sit upon. Condemn me for walking on water when all it is is that I know where the rocks are.

NOT HAVING A GOOD DAY, but then, I'm not allowed this, as I am a Christian and no one understands how we are not perfect. You are the only ones who judge us for not being perfect, imo.

But still, I hope you all have a great day and evening. I won't bother you again.

I appreciate everyone's input here and for giving us words to reflect on.

The thread, unfortunately, is going back and forth with some biting and becoming argumentative. Due to that, I feel the need to close the discussion.

KD