[Danialla]

Our job is to love others without stopping to inquire whether or not they are worthy. That is not our business and, in fact, it is nobody's business. What we are asked to do is to love, and this love itself will render both ourselves and our neighbors worthy if anything can.
-Thomas Merton

[altonwoodsdrphil]

I think it's more than "just a thought," If we believe that God loves everyone (and I do) then the choice to not love someone,and the responsibility for it, rest entirely with us.

[SeptemberMorn]

Ditto, that, "drphil"! Love is an action. To not love is INaction.

[Danialla]

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SeptemberMorn said:
Ditto, that, "drphil"! Love is an action. To not love is INaction.



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Who defines what "action" is appropriate?

Who would define what "inaction" is?

What if your "action" feels hurtful to some people? Do you plow ahead, even if you have been requested not too? Maybe you could tread lightly, leading more by example? Just a thought....

Sometimes I guess it is much easier to talk the talk, then walk the walk

Here is to hoping that we are all able to begin walking the walk. It is sure to be a tough path for everyone, me included . But worth it, for everyone!!!!

It will seem easier at times to just stay where you are on the path and "shout" at the people you feel are behind you, but that wont work for some, dare I say most. Some people who feel that they are being shouted at, just shut down. They stop walking the path altogether, you will have lost them. Now that would be really sad.

How about helping that person by quietly walking side by side, hand in hand and whispering encouragement? And if your friends complain about what you are doing is wrong, that the person you are helping isn't deserving of your help...... well then maybe you can be strong enough in your beliefs to continue to help that person in the way they need to be helped, the way they can "hear" it.

Maybe you will be strong enough to say EVERYONE MATTERS, and better yet, maybe you could even believe it...

It is my opinion when people talk about other people, even in the name of their beliefs, they are just talking the talk. I can't believe that anyone, let alone any higher power, embraces hypocrisy. Why do we?

[KathyM]

Danialla

It's a beautiful thought, but you're right. It's much harder to walk than talk, especially on the streets where I live.

We had an incident recently. A "chatty" homeless woman was "bothering" another woman as she was boarding a bus, so she asked the bus driver to call the police to have her removed. The policeman tried to apprehend the homeless woman, but she panicked and managed to take his gun - killed the police officer. His fellow officers opened fire on her and shot her several times. Last I heard she was in critical condition.

Naturally, this woman was labeled a "deranged lunatic and cop killer" - a person not worthy of living.

Who was this woman? She was a woman suffering from epilepsy who lost her home, family turned their backs on her, and she could not find work. She slept on the floor of the subway station, and tended to be a little confused and irritable after having a seizure. From what I hear, that's normal for people with epilepsy.

If someone could have taken the time to love that woman for just a few minutes, they would have discovered she needed medical help. They could have talked with her and calmed her fears. Instead, a police officer is dead and his family is grieving, four other officers have to live with the knowledge they shot a defenseless woman suffering from epilepsy, and the chatty homeless woman is now facing the death penalty for shooting a police officer.

There is a good chance that I will be left homeless and alone on those streets. To people who don't know me, my illness (amyloidosis) makes me look like I'm drunk and possibly crazy. Most likely, I'll be mumbling due to amyloid infiltration in my vocal chords, my gait will be uneven due to neuropathy and ataxia, my arms might also be flailing due to ataxia and blindness. With the way homeless people are treated out here on the streets, I wouldn't stand a chance of finding someone strong enough to "love" me as I am. I doubt I would fare any better as a homeless stranger in any other town either.

Maybe by the time I'm out there alone on the streets of Chicago, more people will ponder your thoughts on love a little deeper.

[altonwoodsdrphil]

who defines what action is appropriate?

to love, as I have loved you...unconditionally, even unto my own death!

all that's necessary for evil to flourish is for "good people" to stand idly by.

perhaps it's better to risk someone feeling hurt if it allows them to see the need for change, and to see a better way...We seldom change unless we see different behaviors as an "easier way"

Am I a hypocrite? yes! (among other things) Have I failed to "do the right thing" over and over! (((boy do I need forgiveness!))) but In my own experience, I can say that I needed to have the "boom lowered on me" because I'm so "thick" and slow to understand,continuing to see MY own way as "the way" so,while I'm thankful to people/God who continue to be gentle with me in my ignorance, I'm even more grateful when the band-aid get's pulled off all at once...it may hurt more at first, but it goes away faster!

[recluse1]

"Our job is to love others without stopping to inquire whether or not they are worthy. That is not our business and, in fact, it is nobody's business. What we are asked to do is to love, and this love itself will render both ourselves and our neighbors worthy if anything can. "
-Thomas Merton

I love this post Danialla! It is so true! To reach out to others and touch their hearts with the love that God has touched us with, that is the most important job we have. I know I said "job", but that is because I believe not only is it the right thing to do, but it is also one of our biggest responsibilities as God's children.

And it isn't for us to decide who is worthy of that love. In order for us to do that we would have to place judgement on those people. That to me is wrong. We are supposed to even show love towards our enemies. To do what God would have us to do, we are to love others as God himself loves us. That to me means that love is all inclusive, for everyone.

Maybe there is a particular person that I might have a personal problem with, someone that I hold a grudge against, or I feel is dishonest. I would have trouble finding love for that person, yes. But that is when I am supposed to pray and ask God to help me find a way to settle my heart and find a way to love them. I can say that in my experience, He has helped me make that peace and helped find that strength and opened my heart to the possibility of loving them in spite of those things.

I totally agree, we should all strive to love oone another and do so without judgement or preconceived notions of one another.

Recluse1

[Danialla]

Thank you recluse, I thought you'd understand.

This is for everyone,

We breath the same air..........

We all have experienced blue skies, and we all have experienced the cloudy and dark ones too.

We have all seen beautiful flowers, and areas barren or overgrown with weeds.

We have all experienced the joy of life, although some far more than others.

And we have all dealt with hurt in our lives, again sadly, some far more than others.

We may find joy in different things, but we all find joy.

Different things may hurt us, but we all hurt.

We are the same, but yet we are so different.

We all matter, each and every one of us And each and every one of the people around us, and those around them, and those around them, etc...... People we will never see, or hear.... They too have feelings, all I ask is that we feel for them too.

To me, that is what spirituality is all about, creating a peaceful, loving environment. In what can seem like an uncaring, chaotic world.

Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me...... Anyone else want to join?

Take care everyone

[SeptemberMorn]

I thought we were speaking about love here, Danialla. Love is gentle, love is kind. It doesn't seek its own reward. When someone loves another or others in general, they behave this way toward them. There is no thought or intetnion to hurt. This isn't love.

In a relationship, you need to work at keeping a loving, caring, gentle relationship. If you don't do anything, the relationship starves and dies.

Love is not about controlling, pushing or hurting another. But even in a loving, giving and patient relationship there are personal freedoms that no one has the right to refuse the other. They are called boundaries.

As a mother and grandmother, I love my kids and their kids. But because they want to run out in the street doesn't mean that I allowed my kids and today don't allow my grandkids to do it. If I see a child, ANY child, that is about to be hurt, I may hurt that child's arm in the effort of reaching out and pulling it out of harms way. The hurt, however, was not intentional but necessary as compared to the greater hurt of being hurt or worse yet, being killed by an oncoming car.

I hope you can understand the concept.

[Danialla]

Yes, September, we are talking about love.

And yes September, love is gentle and kind. And yes September, It doesn't seek its own reward, although I am surprised that you quoted this one. And when someone loves another or others in general they should try very hard to treat them kindly. I think the only place we may part ways is that I believe, everyone deserves that type of treatment. Even those who don't believe in, or don't believe as strongly in "you know who" as you or others may.

It isn't a hard concept, and I would even goes as far as saying it was even encouraged by "you know who".

And you are correct, love never should be about controlling, pushing or hurting another, although again I am surprised that you have referred to this concept.

And you and I even agree that in the process of saving a child from getting hit by a car, we may have to hurt them when we pull them away, but it will be worth it to us because we would be saving their life. Agreed!

But if you were trying to use the above example and have it relate to your faith and your ability to save peoples lives here for "you know who", then I strongly disagree.

I respect your faith, and know that saving peoples lives for "you know who" is very important to you, but you have also acknowledged that sometimes you may have to hurt people to accomplish that goal. That is a very wrong approach to use on a mental health board.

Most people on these boards have suffered enough hurt to last them a lifetime. Some people may have even been hurt in the name of a specific religion, maybe your religion.

We don't know everyones story, nor should we. But we should respect that everyone has a story, and everyone probably has a hurt that they may keep buried deep inside.

A mental health board should be a place were we feel safe. A spiritual sanctuary should be just that...... "A Sanctuary".

A place where we can all ask for prayers, or good thoughts when we have a need and offer the same to someone else when they ask. We shouldn't have to believe a certain way to offer support to one another, nor should we expect others to believe like us to offer us support.

If saving lives is so important that you feel that hurting someone in the process is okay, then go to a board where the people are better equipped to deal with that type of approach.

Why don't you go to a board where the sole purpose is to discuss which religion is better, whose beliefs are right. Jump into some of those dialogues and save some lives! I have to think that the people on those boards are better able to handle the hurt you may have to inflict to save their lives. But maybe that would be too much work.....

Peace and love to EVERYONE, and especially you September

[SeptemberMorn]

>>Yes, September, we are talking about love.

**Then I don't understand your comment of:

>>Who defines what "action" is appropriate?

Who would define what "inaction" is?

**Let me give you and example of "loving your neighbor":

My neighbor across the street who is elderly took a bad fall in his carport day before yesterday. His next door neighbor was outside watering his weeds and saw and heard it. He looked up and kept on watering.

I saw and heard it too, and I rushed over to see how bad he had hurt himself, then I wheeled myself back across the street as fast as I could and called for my husband to come help, which he did.

Now... who took action and who didn't? Who behaved as if they love their neighbor and who didn't? Which "neighbor" acted in love towards this man? Who didn't take any action at all showing no concern, never mind love, for the man who fell?

>>What if your "action" feels hurtful to some people? Do you plow ahead, even if you have been requested not too? Maybe you could tread lightly, leading more by example? Just a thought....

**Do you think the action of me and my husband was hurtful to the fallen man? I seriously doubt it. LOL

>>Sometimes I guess it is much easier to talk the talk, then [than] walk the walk

**I take this statement personally. It looks like an accusation but I assure you, I talk the talk as well a walk the walk.

>>Here is to hoping that we are all able to begin walking the walk. It is sure to be a tough path for everyone, me included. But worth it, for everyone!!!!

**The path isn't too tough for me thank you, because God is my companion and my guide. Yes, I stumble and fall because I'm not perfect, but He helps me up, dusts me off and we continue on our way.

>>It will seem easier at times to just stay where you are on the path and "shout" at the people you feel are behind you, but that wont work for some, dare I say most. Some people who feel that they are being shouted at, just shut down. They stop walking the path altogether, you will have lost them. Now that would be really sad.

**I think "shouting" is a matter of perception. If you're sensitive to begin with, then your perception could be that you've been shouted at, but in reality, the voice may have been just half a decibel up because of emotion other than just anger.

>>How about helping that person by quietly walking side by side, hand in hand and whispering encouragement? And if your friends complain about what you are doing is wrong, that the person you are helping isn't deserving of your help...... well then maybe you can be strong enough in your beliefs to continue to help that person in the way they need to be helped, the way they can "hear" it.

**I don't let anyone tell me who my friends are or are not. I also follow my own quiet little voice, my discernment and what I hold to be the truth to help others. If that help is rejected, then I don't waste my time or my breath. I don't have the power to change anyone or their beliefs. They have to want to do their own changing. But I have the right to disagree with their methods

>>Maybe you will be strong enough to say EVERYONE MATTERS, and better yet, maybe you could even believe it...

**How do you know that I don't have the strength to say "everyone matters"? And how do you know I don't believe it? Do you know my heart? Do you know ME, even? No, you don't.

>>It is my opinion when people talk about other people, even in the name of their beliefs, they are just talking the talk. I can't believe that anyone, let alone any higher power, embraces hypocrisy. Why do we?

**I don't know why anyone embraces hypocrisy. Maybe they don't understand the meaning of it, or they have made assumptions or have wrong expectations of someone.

>>And yes September, love is gentle and kind. And yes September, It doesn't seek its own reward, although I am surprised that you quoted this one.

>>And when someone loves another or others in general they should try very hard to treat them kindly.

**Again, you don't know me, but those who do, know that I do treat people kindly. If they don't treat me kindly in return, then I may express my hurt and simply walk away from them.

**Why would you be surprised? You don't know me.

>>Even those who don't believe in, or don't believe as strongly in "you know who" as you or others may.

**"You know who"? What is so wrong with calling God by His name? What are you afraid of? I'm not afraid to call my Friend and Lord by His name.

>>It isn't a hard concept, and I would even goes as far as saying it was even encouraged by "you know who".

**Yes, it is a hard concept to follow through with, especially for us mere mortals. God doesn't have any trouble loving ALL unconditionally, but mortals aren't God, are they?

>>And you are correct, love never should be about controlling, pushing or hurting another, although again I am surprised that you have referred to this concept.

** I referred to this concept because you did when you said

>>Who defines what "action" is appropriate?

Who would define what "inaction" is?

>>But if you were trying to use the above example and have it relate to your faith and your ability to save peoples lives here for "you know who", then I strongly disagree.

**I'm not trying to "save people's lives". Heaven help me! Certainly not for myself because without GOD, it would be an empty action. No one is dying here as far as I know, and if there is someone in that predicament, it certainly isn't up to me! It's up to their doctor.

My interpretation of "support" is different than it is on this site. "Support" here is usually "enabling", agreeing no matter what the belief, action, inaction or wrong thinking is. I believe that if someone is so dead in the water wrong, then they need a dose of the truth. Truth can quite often hurt although that is never my intention. I never set out to hurt anyone, not even with the truth, but like they say, if the shoe fits, wear it.

>>Most people on these boards have suffered enough hurt to last them a lifetime. Some people may have even been hurt in the name of a specific religion, maybe your religion.

**Yes, I know. I'm one of them. I'm sorry if others have been hurt in the name of God, but I'm not responsible for that, neither do I have the ability to know who has and who hasn't. I believe strongly in taking responsibility for one's actions. If someone has been hurt in the name of God or in the name of any religion, then they should tread very lightly around this forum. Anything could touch off a trigger from the past.

As for this forum being a "sanctuary"... well... no comment on that. Most people know how I feel about that.

If we still don't understand each other, so be it. I'm done explaining my stance. There will continue to be some that can't or won't understand... and *I* understand that.

[Danialla]

September, This thread was not about you, not about anybody. It was about love and understanding.

I know your stance, and I appreciate your stance. I don't "know" you, but I would suspect that you are a very nice person. A person strong in their beliefs and that works for you. Believe it or not, I think that is great... . For you!

I am not surprised at all that you helped your neighbor, I can see from your posts that you would be the type of person who would/does help others.

I am appalled that your neighbor would choose not to help his neighbor. And I am sure we would agree that it is sad when people do not care or think of others. Being self centered seems to be a way of life for some. Sad isn't it?

See September, there is so much that we do agree on, and at least I believe we are both good people. I admire the strength you have in your faith and I am sure that you want to share that faith with others. And you are... You have a Monday night chat that I have seen the reminders for,have I ever posted something derogatory in that thread? You have a blog that everyone can access through your link on your home page, and I have. Plus, you can reach each and every member here by PM, and I know you know how to use that too.

September, considering this is a mental health support board, first and foremost, well I really think you have been more than accommodated in sharing your faith. If this were a religion board and we forced your specific religion into a private night chat, well then I would say you have a right to complain. But this is a support community for people with mental health issues (past or present), or who have loved ones who do, it is not a religion board. All I or anybody asks is that everyone try to respect that, and if they can't then they can join a religion board too. I am sure someone could provide some links.

Take care September and I appreciate you talking to me here. I hope you realized that we have more in common then you thought. But to be perfectly honest, I always knew we were both good people.

Peace to you September.

[KathyM]

Thank you ((Danialla))

I took your original quote about "others" to mean "strangers." It's not hard to love and care for people we know - neighbors, etc. Most people do look out for their families, friends, and neighbors.

IMO, the true test is applying this to strangers.

I've spent a LOT of time sitting with our homeless people on the streets, some of them quite odoriferous from either alcohol or not bathing for a long period of time. It's a real eye-opener to sit with them and see what they see. I've YET to see a look of love on ANY of the faces that pass by us. Every one of them gave us disgusted looks, then made a large circle into the street to avoid us.

[Danialla]

Yes, Kathy, It is so sad to see the homeless, and know that a good portion of them have some form of untreated mental illness, with the second being some type of addiction.

I volunteer sometimes at a homeless shelter that an area church runs during the winter months. We open the doors at 8:00 P.M, and do not allow anyone in who smells of alcohol or is suspected to be under the influence. We are able then to call the local county jail and they will put the person up there, but only for a certain # of times during the season.

It is so sad to listen to their stories, or observe them in the midsts of a mild psychotic break. It is sad that people feel comfortable looking away.

I do feel that the "professional" panhandlers downtown give the homeless a bad name. People have a hard time separating the two, especially after the local TV news show did a report that a majority of our panhandlers have homes in the area.

Take care Kathy