[Psychotic_Phil]

Hello all...

It has been quite some time since I have visited this site and feel once again compelled to do so now.

Ever since the onset of my illness the elephant in the room has always been the possibility of a predominately psychotic illness, the name of which is rather irrelevant. Reviewing my symptoms my psychiatrist and I have concluded that my illness has been predominately psychotic. Why would I be writing about this now, after all my blathering about diagnoses? The answer is to be revealed shortly...

My intelligence has been a subject of debate in my mind and seemingly in my mind only. Everyone I have into contact with has labeled me as a genius besides my father who is mentally abusive, even though he has not denied my intelligence. I have always put faith in the suggestion that I am rather idiotic.

My main concern is mathematics, a subject that has always fascinated me. In college, assuming I reach that point, I would study Literature, Philosophy and Advanced Mathematics. I have no problem with either literature or philosophy, considering that I can read about any text fairly simply at my age of fourteen. Mathematics is more of a concern.

I was excelling in mathematics until 7th Grade when my symptoms started. Missing the core mathematical education necessary, I have fallen behind slightly. Review should take some time, but I imagine it will not be long.

The biggest concern is my ability to solve puzzles, spatial problems or board games, the first two things I never really have practiced. If this should be the case that I practice and become better then so be it and I shall. Spatial problems are more of a concern than the others. I have always not been exceptional in solving visual problems. Perhaps this should have been an indicator of my later descent into madness. My IQ at the start of my life was reasonable around 140 - 150. Since that time it has declined, but perhaps this is simply my inability to perform well on something so standardized. I have recently read that one's IQ is relatively stable for the remainder of their lives. This therefore is not consistent with my lower scores later in life. If anything now, considering the psychosis and the inevitable neuro-degeneration I am around 130 - 140. Still, this does not make me a genius of any sort and therefore incapable of achieving even the slightest of tasks. Did anyone of any sort achieve anything significant with such meager scores?

I do not consider myself knowledgeable or practical by any means and attribute that as well as my insufficient intelligence to my failures. Of course, I was accepted into a gifted elementary school, refusing to go only on the basis of the children that were snobbish. Even the High School I go to now is fairly rigorous and I seem to have no real problems quite yet. These things are very confusing.

I wish to achieve greatness even with my psychotic illness but do not see the inevitability of it. I listen to non intellectual music yet balance that out by listening to classical music just as often. I have non intellectual friends or relatives in the area I live now (United States) yet love to read intellectual texts, usually comprehending them and speaking intellectually when not around those who cannot understand or when I simply shut down my intellectual side in fear of failure. Does this make me a psuedo- intellectual or simply one with more problems than others? All of these things are so perplexing...

Psychotic Phil.

[Eleora]

I think you may be confused about IQ scores. 130-140 is extremely good, in the 98-99th percentile, if I remember correctly. That's smart enough to be a member of Mensa, however, many people will argue that IQ isn't a good measure of intelligence for a plethora of reasons.

That said, I think you are too focused on forcing yourself to learn things, then allowing yourself to enjoy the things you're learning. Don't feel like you have to listen to "intellectual" music or hang out with "intellectual" friends. Give effort, receive results. Even a genius can fail.

I understand being scared of failing - I made it my life's mission in early high school. If I wasn't amazing at it, I wouldn't do it and I sure as hell wouldn't even try to do it.

Work on the things you think you need to work on, but do them in a way you can enjoy. I know I don't have time for solving word or number problems, so every Saturday I do the ones in the back of the newspaper while I drink my coffee. If I think I am going to be waiting somewhere, I bring along something along those lines to do.

As for whether mental illness is harmful to your intelligence... I think some can, and some can help it in a way. I always say being bipolar really sucks but it's good because I understand some things better now than I did before. I've seen the highest of highs, the lowest of lows, and I think it gave me a different perspective on many topics.

[Psychotic_Phil]

Originally Posted by girlbassplayer

I think you may be confused about IQ scores. 130-140 is extremely good, in the 98-99th percentile, if I remember correctly. That's smart enough to be a member of Mensa, however, many people will argue that IQ isn't a good measure of intelligence for a plethora of reasons.

That said, I think you are too focused on forcing yourself to learn things, then allowing yourself to enjoy the things you're learning. Don't feel like you have to listen to "intellectual" music or hang out with "intellectual" friends. Give effort, receive results. Even a genius can fail.

I understand being scared of failing - I made it my life's mission in early high school. If I wasn't amazing at it, I wouldn't do it and I sure as hell wouldn't even try to do it.

Work on the things you think you need to work on, but do them in a way you can enjoy. I know I don't have time for solving word or number problems, so every Saturday I do the ones in the back of the newspaper while I drink my coffee. If I think I am going to be waiting somewhere, I bring along something along those lines to do.

As for whether mental illness is harmful to your intelligence... I think some can, and some can help it in a way. I always say being bipolar really sucks but it's good because I understand some things better now than I did before. I've seen the highest of highs, the lowest of lows, and I think it gave me a different perspective on many topics.

Well, I have read literature stating explicitly that predominately psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder, which my psychiatrist seems inclined to believe I have based on my symptoms can reduce ones IQ by ten points. Yet John Nash managed to win the Nobel Prize after 30 years. Of course, I imagine that comparing my situation to John Nash is arrogance of the highest caliber. He received his illness at the age of 25 or 30 I believe and here I am becoming ill at 13 and going through a year of hell. These clinical terms are all so confining. My father, as you can read, is Bipolar, though I present no mania whatsoever or depression, so technically I am not afflicted with a mood disorder. Not yet at least. Schizophrenic illness at my age is rather uncommon and statistically predicts worse outcome, specifically institutional care. Ah well, at least I have my glorious madness eh? Thankfully I'm being properly medicated for now. This Invega is truly something.

I will attempt to have fun learning and expanding my knowledge and ability. I have already begun with Kung Fu, which has assisted greatly. Hopefully, I can be what I want; a mathematics, literature and philosophy major. If I had to pick one I'd major in math, possibly being a mathematician, however outlandish that sounds.

[Eleora]

Diagnosing schizophrenia or any psychotic disorder at a young age gives you a slight advantage with early intervention. It is statistically rare for someone to be diagnosed that young but it's not unheard of. Was your illness diagnosed while you were in a full psychotic break or with symptoms of an impending psychotic break?

[Psychotic_Phil]

It was diagnosed as I was slowly becoming more and more psychotic. The onset was rather insidious with a certainly significant duration of the "prodromal" period. At first I was believed to have a psychotic disorder. Then they believed I had a manic break when I actually did not. I was more angry than manic and I never really had any of the symptoms of mania. I have had mild depressive feelings, or at least depression mild enough not to be considered major depression concurrent with schizoaffective disorder that was shorter than the psychosis. It has been established that I have had both negative and positive symptoms. It is very complicated and perhaps I can recover sooner rather than later. Well, hoping all goes well.

Psychotic_Phil, Ive been reading some of your posts, and I have a ton of things in common with you, I am a couple years older. Ive been asking the same questions also. To let you know a little about my condition, Ive been diagnosed with clinical depression and anxiety in the past, but have also been through psychotic episodes which I interpreted as schizophrenia, Im still not sure what it is though.

Im also a very intelligent person with a high IQ, I got all A's throughout elementary school and did up until I started to develop symptoms of Depression and mental illness. Sometimes even now I think Im too smart for my own good. Ive taken IQ tests in the past and have gotten 135-145, which is very smart and way above average, some even say genius level starts at 140. For some time I seriously had to "play dumb" to even fit in in school, it was a rough time in my life.

My mental illness has seriously interfered with my intelligence and my success so far. I dont believe that I have gotten any dumber, but the main thing is Im not happy and I cant concentrate, my mind has strayed to other subjects much different than school. I have refused to take medication for the past few years, because when I did take it, I didnt feel like myself at all. If anything, the medication even interfered more and lowered with my natural intelligence. So my answer for your main question based on my experiences would be yes. The main thing is that it will make your mind stray a lot, but in reality you havent gotten any less intelligent even if it seems you have.

If you ever wish to have a conversation or discussion with me on any topic, I will be more than glad to. I am in much of the same situation as you.

[pachyderm]

The confusion of thought and inability to stay with one train of thought will interfere with learning and seem to make you less intelligent. On the other hand, understanding your own dis-ease can lead to greater insights than most people ever have. Or so I believe.

[iamtwilight]

phil, when i was first put to hospital for psychosis they made me take some psychological tests (including the rorschach inkblot test) which measured whether my "illness" had affected my intelligence and learning abilities. i had been seeing hallucinations daily for two months, but had been hallucinating occasionally before that for maybe 3 or 4 months altogether. the psychologist said my intelligence was like before, above normal.

have you been to hospital? did they make you take these tests? even if you have taken them, remember that it still takes months to recover from psychosis. i recently had a psychotic episode and my pdoc advised me to stay out of school until february 2009.

so basically what i'm saying is don't be too hard on yourself. also i checked your profile, i'm not sure if it's the right age, but if it is, you seem very smart for a 14 year old. back when i was 14, i wanted all my male classmates dead because they were so stupid. hahahahah. ok. you're also making research of your "illness" (dang i dislike that word) and that is a very good thing.

scattered thoughts but... best of luck to you phil.

[Psychotic_Phil]

Actually Katie it is rather accurate in the age section. I am fourteen years of age and have never taken these tests you speak of. Yet, it was never offered as they never accepted until quite recently that I have a psychotic illness synonymous with schizophrenia, most likely paranoid type, which I have read specifically has the best prognosis and is less likely to show up on neuro-cognitive tests.

To compound this pleasure of doubting my own intelligence, recently I have been more absent minded than usual, even though the medication I am currently on (Invega) is helping to sort out not only psychotic and negative symptoms but is helping to restore my cognition, despite the fact that my attention span, especially on tests is diminished as it was when I became ill. If it does indeed take months to recover from psychosis then that is certainly what has occurred in the past. I was not able to have much intellectual stimulation as I was actively recovering from paranoia.

Recently however, I fail most tests, including IQ tests, even though I never score below 100. However, if what I read several days ago is correct that ones IQ is relatively stable for the remainder of their lives, then my actual IQ is still somewhere around 140 - 150, which certainly isn't horrid.

The main reason I believe that at times I am not intellectual is because of my father's mental abuse through out the years. His IQ is well beyond genius yet he lacks sympathy of any sort. He himself, as I mentioned is Bipolar, which is what I was perceived of having. That or Schizoaffective Disorder, both of which seem unlikely due to the lack of mood issues. Albeit at times my perfectionism has gotten the better of me.

At any rate, I believe all of this will eventually sort itself out, either through failure or raving success. No one significant has ever triumphed over a psychotic illness at my age and gone on to change things however, so the probability of it occurring is rather slim.

But who knows? Perhaps it will happen.

[Junerain]

Robin Williams, Jim Carrey, many authors, even doctors, have triumphed, over their psychotic breaks, gone on, to change things........perhaps one day, your name will be added to a list of this kind......you have it all ahead of you!!!

[AboveAllOthers]

I'm not 14 years old but still fairly young (18 years old, in 2nd year university). I do have schizophrenia as well as some other disorders, and for the most part, I'm doing pretty well in university. I see you're linking IQ scores to intelligence, which is somewhat of a problem. Gardener suggested various types of intelligence, ranging from logical/mathematical to social to musical and many more. IQ scores only tend to measure the logical, spatial and reading/comprehension forms of intelligence. I believe it was Mozart who, according to my psychology professor, at an early age could write more music notes than he could letters, so if he were to take an IQ test at that time, he'd probably be considered mentally retarded when in fact, he was a musical genius.
Even with the illness, people can be extremely successful. Last time I did an IQ test I didn't get in the 140 range, actually only around 120-125.

If you are interested in mathematics and such, practicing various spatial, logic and math problems would probably help.

Listening to non-intellectual music, as far as I know won't affect your IQ unless you try to make it, such as purposely act, dress and dumb down yourself to be like the artists.

To give you an example of what someone with IQ of 120-125 is doing right now, I'm taking these courses (F = this semester, S = next semester):

- Medical Pharmacology (F)
- Ecology (F)
- Cell & Molecular Biology (F)
- Physiology of Plants and Animals (F)
- Organic Chemistry I (F)
- Perception (F)
- Organic Chemistry II (S)
- Human anatomy and physiology (S)
- Genetics (S)
- Abnormal Psychology (S)
- Neuropsychology (S)

In 1st year, it was (Y = full credit):

- Physical Chemistry (Y)
- Calculus (Y)
- Physics (Y)
- English (Y)
- Evolution (F)
- Diversity of Organisms (S)

Granted, there are harder course than what I'm taking, as well as easier courses. However, this is merely meant to show, a person with a decent IQ score can indeed achieve something (my grades are/were pretty good, with the lowest being about 72% in English).

I will say this, if you focus too much on other things, such as contemplating what possible sources could lower your IQ score, you're essentially wasting your time. There is a possibility it could affect you, and a possibility it couldn't, there are no definites.

As for confusing the piss out of people, who cares? If they need a dictionary when they travel with you, so be it. I've confused many people, some smarter, some dumber than myself using various terminology, such as occluding zonulae to sp^3 hybridization.

On a last note, you said your father's mental abuse makes you feel you're not intelligent. There's an old saying, which goes "You have to dress for success". Give yourself confidence because if you go into a test with your head down, belittling yourself, telling yourself how you're so stupid and will fail, there's a higher chance that you will. You could take what your father is saying as something to overcome and prove him wrong. He calls you stupid, so do your school test, and get a high score. Stupid people usually don't get high scores (assuming they don't cheat or something).

My parents for the most part were abusive, both physically and mentally, as well as being bullied around always at schools didn't help for many many years. That could be part of my problems but I try to use that in a good way. Whenever I remember those times, I get pretty angry (and I do have a very short temper), so I try to fuel myself at times off anger, hatred, etc... . May not work for you but try to use what's kicking you down to pick yourself up and move on.

[Psychotic_Phil]

Thank you AboveAllOthers. I think that regardless of IQ results perhaps I can accomplish something, perhaps not be a member of Mensa, but nevertheless. All I want is to a meaningful contribution, by which people will recall who and what I am/was when I inevitably am deceased.

According to the last "official" IQ test I took, my IQ is similar to Newtons in it's style! (Did Newton really only have 124 - 130 IQ? And that was on my horrid day in the midst of negative symptoms. Newton at least had 180 I'm imagining.)

These standardized tests have never really been my thing. For instance, the WASL, I consecutively fail due to the insistence on it. Personally, it shouldn't be any assessment of learning.

As far as the mathematics goes, I would be quite ahead, but unfortunately as detailed in an earlier post I essentially was absent the entirety of seventh grade due to my illness.

If nothing else, I'll settle for the meager title of writer with philosophical overtones. Though I would much prefer to be known for something ELSE. Besides, my writing is insipid, trite, mundane and absolutely repulsive, yet everyone claims I am amazing with words. Nonsensical, sure. Untrue, sure. Would I settle for it? Perhaps. After all Jack Kerouac and Antonin Artaud were schizophrenic writers that accomplished much. Yet, to compare myself to either of them is absurd and arrogant on so many levels.

Whatever the case, hopefully I can do something well and be renowned. Otherwise, there may be no point with living and being 'intelligent'.

[selfy]

as far as i know, (which isnt much i am not that familiar with psychotic disorders,) i am aware that sometimes psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia can have cognitive symptoms, some find it hard to function and take in information. im not genius on the subject, but i think some forms of psychotic disorder affect ability to learn.

also, i know personally my IQ is 120. which is quite good. i have been told and am not aware of how much truth is in this, that george bush's IQ is in the range of about 86. (worrying much.) i think that your IQ is not something you should worry too greatly about.

i think you write incredibly fluently and adeptly, so there is no need to put yourself down on the subject. i believe instead you should allow yourself to believe something is good enough. my mom always has to get the best, and my dad can deal with things that are good enough. i believe on the whole, my dad is less stressed by what he does and his achievements. and stress is never good for psychotic illnesses.

maybe you should loosen up on yourself? you sound incredibly intelligent.

[Psychotic_Phil]

Originally Posted by selfy

as far as i know, (which isnt much i am not that familiar with psychotic disorders,) i am aware that sometimes psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia can have cognitive symptoms, some find it hard to function and take in information. im not genius on the subject, but i think some forms of psychotic disorder affect ability to learn.

also, i know personally my IQ is 120. which is quite good. i have been told and am not aware of how much truth is in this, that george bush's IQ is in the range of about 86. (worrying much.) i think that your IQ is not something you should worry too greatly about.

i think you write incredibly fluently and adeptly, so there is no need to put yourself down on the subject. i believe instead you should allow yourself to believe something is good enough. my mom always has to get the best, and my dad can deal with things that are good enough. i believe on the whole, my dad is less stressed by what he does and his achievements. and stress is never good for psychotic illnesses.

maybe you should loosen up on yourself? you sound incredibly intelligent.

Much obliged selfy. I honestly have learned that perhaps it is, under my particular structure in terms of what I can really allow myself to intellectually savor and respond to, not in my best interest to major in mathematics. It seems oh so confining and rather mundane. The numbers themselves have no pulse, it is the individual that creates the heartbeat, at which point it is customary to become engulfed in theories, queries, hypotheses, investigations into this overtly regulated realm of numerology and supposed rationality. I'd rather stick with perhaps, writing or drama. In fact, earlier yesterday I was skimming Artaud's Theatre of Cruelty section in his manifesto, and was fascinating, truly something that I could savor.

As far as George W. Bush's IQ, I would imagine that considering he is above most of the citizens in this country, (I base this off of extensive research. You need only look so far.) that him or any politician has an IQ from 80 - 105, 80 of course, being the very bottom of the average spectrum. With the proper knowledge, anyone can outsmart a politician. A philosopher is somewhat more complicated however...

At any rate, thank you all for the moral and intellectual support that you have all lent to me in one of my darkest hours. I wish you all success in your respective environments.

Psychotic_Phil,

You shouldnt be worried about your IQ or if you are smart. I can tell that you are a very intelligent person just by reading your posts. You seem to be worried about it a lot, which is understandable. I dont think schizophrenia can make you any dumber though. Ive been through several bad episodes of psychosis similar to schizophrenia and have had clinical depression and anxiety for 5+ years now, and I took an official IQ test just a short time ago and got a score of about 140. By reading your posts and learning about you I can tell that you are right around my range or maybe even higher.