what do YOU MEN say?

-about girls who are easily convinced to sleep with you?

second q?

- how do you feel about girls who are HARD to get?
when i had a boyfriend, i let him kiss me only after a month we were going out... is it ocnsidered as "hard to get"?

I say it is keeping your self respect. wish more of us women were like that! you go girl!

ok, granted, I am not a man, but I don't agree with the 'self-respect' part, bebop.

I didn't wait a month before kissing my husband and I have plenty of self-respect.

I wouldn't want to perpetuate the double-standard and the stereotype by judging women who 'wait' as being better than those who don't.

Just my 2c

I'll bow out now, and leave the rest of the answering to the guys...

i'll post just one more and then i'll bow out...

i guess i just wanted to say that maybe... how guys respond 'in general' really isn't as important as how your guy responds. because maybe you aren't really so interested in how guys think 'in general' so much as you are interested in what your guy thinks of you?

i've heard it said that it is much harder to respect someone who doesn't have self-respect. i try and respect everyone, but i do get that there is some truth to this. i think that what it is about is assessing what seems right to you. sometimes that involves learning the hard way (waiting longer than was right for you, not waiting until it was right for you). i think there might well be some truth to the notion that it is better to wait too long than not wait long enough (with respect to harm to self).

but maybe you really are interested in general opinion...

it will be interesting to hear what the guys have to say

Alexandra_K!

K, enough outta me. Guys?

I am a guy. I don't throw stones, but some do. I will use a movie quote that I think is appropriate. "Why is it that men always feel compelled to chase the ones that run away? Immaturity!?" I think that in youth, It doesn't matter as much. As an adult entering into a life long bond, it matters alot. Before such a commitment, men want to know that there will be no regrets, and that they are THE special one. I think men are more cautious than women about entering life long Relationships.

first question:

slut.

but then think about how it goes for guys:

stud.

spot the double standard?

second question:

i've heard 'hold out'.

but then...

it isn't about what other people say about you so much as how you feel about yourself - isn't it?

and anybody who is going to be calling you names and disrespecting you (one way or the other) isn't really worth it surely...

(for what it is worth)

Grrrr double standards.

before i write anything, i just want you all to know that these are not my views.......... they are the views of some of my old friends (now gone away) i will try to word it as they might of worded it ..............but please dont shoot the messenger

girls who are easily convinced to sleep with you?
(views of others not me) wahey easy lay OR slapper

girls who are HARD to get? (again views of others not me) tight OR fridge-ed (snow queen)

i would just like to point out that those views are from the same old friends that stopped coming around when i became ill, the same friends who would rather walk the other way rather then speak to or be seen with anyone with a mental health problem, so when i say "old friends" what i mean is people who have let me down the most.

(((((((((((((therealme)))))))))))

damned if you do and damned if you don't...

(i guess the notion is that a girl should put out for them and nobody else. if a girl doesn't put out for them then she is a 'hold-out' or is 'frigid'. if a girl puts out for others - as well as them - then she is a 'slut' or a 'pro' or whatever)

(female exclusivity is important to guys - evolutionary explanation seems relevant here where a guy doesn't want to spend scarce resources on raising another mans child. a lot of research has been done on 'female promiscuity' - why 'promiscuity'? - , however, and in a lot of the animals we thought were in an exclusive mating pair the females went on a 'best genes' hunt when the male was out of sight ;-). makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. the males that are the best providers might well not be the males that are most virile. the best strategy is for the provider male to think you are faithful so he provides resources but to go on a best genes hunt when he isn't looking. there is some stuff on the function of 'romantic love' being to motivate adultery (rather than long term pair bond) as the cost of being found out is high (could get beaten up and / or exiled).

but in these days of birth control and with our developed frontal lobes etc etc... we have the capacity to transcend our evolutionary selected urges...

i do think this stuff is rather cool though ;-)

(i know i promised to shut up... but i'm not preventing others from posting so... oh well)

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alexandra_k said:
(i guess the notion is that a girl should put out for them and nobody else. if a girl doesn't put out for them then she is a 'hold-out' or is 'frigid'. if a girl puts out for others - as well as them - then she is a 'slut' or a 'pro' or whatever)

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As I was reading this I got all my feelings of shame and guilt back full force. I was brought up traditionally as well, so for me to never have waited more than just a couple of dates before climbing into bed with someone...ugh! It also reminded me of something a nurse asked me- she wanted to know how much my BPD has influenced my ?promiscuity. I had never thought about that before, esp as this is a fairly new diagnosis for me, but there could be some corelation between the 2.. I do feel like a real 'slut' tho because of my behaviours. Also, IRL my male friends used the word 'slut' to answer the 1st question, altho in their double standards (or possibly their hormone-driven minds?!) that appeared to be what at least 3 of them were wanting..

Quote- a woman who dresses like a slut and goes out and wants men to stare at her-THINKS
"what the man will think of me? how i make him like me?"
she is not being her real self. a real women is modest. a woman who has enough self respect. esteem adn confidence.

I had always considered those women who dared to dress that way as ppl who have gd self esteem- imo they would need to in order to walk down the street wearing those type of clothes.

And just as an aside to mellors- i met my ex in the same situation...as you said it should have been fair warning as to how things would go- nightmare-wise!!- but love (or what I thought was love) is blind. Could be a great topic though... how have relationships turned out between those who have met in a psych ward..... The success stories and the others...

I know plenty of women who dress modestly who have low self-esteem. And, as I've said, dressing provocatively doesn't mean a woman has low self-esteem.

A woman can dress provocatively and think she looks good for herself. It doesn't mean she doesn't want to appeal to men, but it doesn't mean she isn't appealing to herself, too. A woman doesn't have to like modest clothing to like herself.

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Maven said:
I know plenty of women who dress modestly who have low self-esteem. And, as I've said, dressing provocatively doesn't mean a woman has low self-esteem.

A woman can dress provocatively and think she looks good for herself. It doesn't mean she doesn't want to appeal to men, but it doesn't mean she isn't appealing to herself, too. A woman doesn't have to like modest clothing to like herself.

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I tend to dress in a way that other people might deem "provocative." I dress tastefully, IMO, but I like to show off my curves and my physical assets. I always have had high self-esteem. I like who I am. I know I'm intelligent and interesting and funny. My body doesn't define who I am, but it's part of me. I like the shape of my body and I don't want to hide it. I feel like I'm celebrating who I am in the way I dress. I wear clothes that I like and express my creativity -- the colours and fabrics and cuts that I find aesthetically-pleasing. My skirts are usually tight, I almost always wear high heels and most of my tops are rather low-cut. When I was working in a very conservative office and had to be more covered up, I didn't feel like myself. I felt like I was trying to be someone other than who I am.

My mum is the same way. She was often criticized cruelly by women who went to her church (she goes to a very conservative church). She wouldn't wear low-cut stuff to church. She would go out of her way to dress conservatively at church and church-related functions but because of her figure, she can look sexy in a turtleneck and an ankle-length skirt. Other women in the church would say nasty things about her because of it. My mum is far from being a slut, though. She has been married to my dad since 1964 and he's the only man she has ever been with. She has a lovely figure, she works hard on keeping herself slim and fit and healthy and she likes the way she looks and sees no reason to conceal her figure in loose, unflattering clothes. She is very religious and truly believes that "the body is the temple" and that's why she takes such good care of her "temple" and isn't ashamed of it.

P.S. In my new job, I'm allowed to dress the way I want to dress and that makes me enjoy my job more. I feel like myself. I have to say I find it incredibly gratifying when I meet new people professionally, and I can tell they're immediately jumping to the conclusion that I'm a brainless blonde cutie. It feels really good when they get to know me better and hear what I have to say and I see them realizing there's much, much more to me. Looks can be deceiving and it's not a good idea to judge a book by its cover.

well i'm a woman and i say way to go therealme. no-one has the right to judge anyone else.

love, jinnyann xxxx

lmo I didn't mean to imply that women that kiss on a first date or whatever had no self respect. not really sure how to word it without sounding bad. maybe self respect was the wrong way to put how I was feeling about it but I do think women in general tend to jump in bed much too soon, I have done it myself. I applaud the poster for her values.

I understand what you are say bebop..... society tends to look down on females that sleep with a man on the first date.

LoVe,
Rhapsody -

society tends to condone the exploitation of animals - but that doesn't mean that it is right (morality comes apart from what society does or does not condone).

it might be the case as an empirical matter of fact that only girls who disrespect themselves sleep with a guy on a first date... but then again, it might not.

i guess it is up to every individual to find out what is right for them.

it is hard with the mixed messages about what is right for people, or the authoritarian messages about what is right for everyone. it can be hard to find out what is right for you. i guess that generally speaking learning involves a trial and error process. i don't see why this should be any different (unless one opts out of the learning and goes with the brute stipulation of what is right for everyone).

i just wanted to know what people think.
i AGREE however, that women mustn`t wait a month to be RESPECTED ! no! and i am NOT judgin any1.

i was raized that way that a girl should be hard to get and that-it`s a challenge for the man.
if a man has no hallenge in the golr then he loses interest.
i wanted to know from the men`s side to see if this statment is a TRUE one...

it`s os not going to cahnge my behavior. it`s just to know.
i do what feels comfortable for me.
i agree that i don`t need any men to tell me if i am respected-i actualy respect myself.
i was raized in a tradiitonaly religious house and i am traditional myself-with even ortodoxal POV.

but what i know also-a woman who dresses like a slut and goes out and wants men to stare at her-THINKS
"what the man will think of me? how i make him like me?"
she is not being her real self. a real women is modest. a woman who has enough self respect. esteem adn confidence. that`s what i persoanlly believe.
but i try hard NOT to judge girls who chose to be "cheap"
it si their decission and their right.

well first off......I've never had that problem...maybe thats a good thing.

Secondly- Hard to get.....thats fine, I'm madly in love with my wife because she's the greatest ! <font color="#880000"> </font>

Who is 'society' anyway?

And, this seems to be about setting personal boundaries and getting needs met. Sometimes those needs make maintaining boundaries very hard, and add alcohol to the mix and those boundaries can nearly disappear, at least temporarily while the needs are being met.

I don't think 'society' knows (or shoud know) who's sleeping with whom and when. There are other measures of responsibility that are more evident and that are socially acceptable/not acceptable.

Someone who judges another person harshly because they have "gotten them' to sleep with them easily isn't, in my opinion, a candidate for judgeship.