[LovelyChantel]

I know my father loves me, but it is an INTENSE love - an unhealthy, smothering and enmeshed love mixed with abuse. It's very confusing.

I know my mother loves me too, but she can be very controlling and passive aggressive at times, especially when I was 9/10+.

Apparently there is such a thing as non-touching sexual abuse, covert sexual abuse, emotional incest, etc. and they're all very closely related, oftentimes interrelated. This was basically my whole childhood.

For instance (I don't know if these were really abusive or not and that confuses me):

Possible trigger:

My mother and father would both bathe me until I was (at least I feel now) far old enough to bathe myself, yet they didn't really teach me how to do it so they had to do it for me and/or asked them to because I was dependent on them.

My my mother was almost always nude and would rub her breasts and her pubic area with her hands an awful lot (not really masturbating, just constant touching) and would lounge on the couch naked and very much exposed, sometimes sprawled out. She would do everything naked: cleaning, cooking, watching movies, etc. mostly when her and I were alone. When my father came home and she saw that he was pulling into the driveway from work, she would run away fast and shut herself in her room sometimes for hours, leaving dad and I together, sometimes she would just get dressed and run back out in time for him to get in the house and it was like nothing had happened. It's like she didn't want him to see her naked.

She would always want to have "cuddle time" with me and as I got older I HATED it. She would spoon me and caress my rib area, belly, back, and thighs. It's fuzzy can't remember much else. And she would do it to my cousins too when they were really little (2-6) and I remember wanting to run up and hit her and and whisk them away but I didn't, I never knew why I felt this way... cuz she wasn't doing anything wrong that I could see. I just knew in the pit of my stomach I wanted to be sick and kill myself all at once and even hurt her very badly. I just remember having the thought, "She is molesting them." But I had no idea why I thought that.

She had no boundaries. She would watch me bathe and shower, watch me use the toilet, barge in while I was dressing/undressing and when I would get upset she would laugh at me and tell me I was being uptight.

My dad on the other hand - our relationship was very sexual too but not so much physically as it was emotionally. He treated me as his wife, called me his little angel, we were severely enmeshed and there was severe triangulation between him, my mom, and myself.

He would make comments about my breasts and would pretend he was going to touch them and would chase me all over the house chanting, "boobies, boobies, boobies" maybe he even did touch, I can't remember, this took place ages (4-16 or older).

He would rub and pinch my butt and would tell me I had a "cute little _ _ _" and went on to state, "I can touch it any damn time I want to".

He frequently told me I was his.

He would do "torture games" that were severely painful, some of which allowed him to touch right next to my vagina or at least graze over it but I don't think he ever actually touched it.

He and I also wrestled a lot and there was a lot of power struggles as he'd get really excited when he'd pin me down so I couldn't move at all and do the torture games and tickle games. Sickening feelings...

He would tell me about his sexual life (or lack of) in great long-winded pity parties about how lonely he was and how my mom wouldn't pleasure him and how he wanted to be touched in that way men need and asked me if I found him attractive or sexy, I was maybe 9-11?

He one time, forced me to kiss him, and he pinned me down and I had to punch him in the head 3 times to get him off of me, I was 19 or 20. Then he cried and told me I didn't love him and that I'd never loved him and said, "You've changed, you're not my 'little angel' anymore. We used to play all the time like this when you were little... Whatever you do with those boyfriends you can do with your daddy!"

One time he got in bed with me when I was a teenager, I was so uncomfortable and wanted him to leave, but instead he started making humping/thrusting motions with his hips on my bed and made moaning sounds. He was just joking though and was trying to illustrate his joke, which was of a sexual nature.

There was a lot of other things but yeah...

None of these was really overtly sexual (or maybe they were), but the sexual undertones makes me queasy and sick when I think about them. And this went on from as far back as I can remember until I was at least 20.

There were many other dynamics between the rest of my family. There was abuse at every turn, RA (religious/spiritual abuse), severe psychological abuse, verbal abuse, terrorizing abuse, physical abuse, and many other things.

Mind you this was all coupled with INTENSE love and the love was genuine. It was the most confusing thing ever and I remember wanting to kill myself and self-injured daily and was very sexual as a child. Would masturbate constantly and did sexual things with other children.

My mom had no sexual relationship with my dad at all. They both fulfilled those things with me I think, in their own ways anyway. She gave off "bad vibes" while doing these things... I can't explain the vibes other than they made me feel really bad inside...



She is/was not open at all sexually with anyone ever. She liked to be naked really only around me, at least it seemed that way anyway, and then she would run off when my dad got home and leave him alone with me to play or whatever. When my dad got home things all changed between her, him, and me.



She was very interested in my genitals and stuff and with my bathroom habits and my maturation into an adult (like 11-14). I don't really know if it was sexual though, but I HATED it soooo much...



I don't know how to explain it but she was the one who had the creepy feelings and sexual vibes that I felt even when I was a kid, I did not feel those same vibes with my dad, with him was more of he got turned on and excited when he would hold me down and tickle me until I was unable to breathe (I wasn't supposed to react at all while he tickled me or even make any faces or show that I was being tickled in any way or he would make us start all the way over and the tickling would get more intense each time - it's like he wanted me to be a robot - he called this game "See How Long You Can Take It") or when he would manually manipulate my tendons and muscles (he would lift my tendons off of the muscles and bones and then "grind them" between his fingers, he did this all over my body, but the worst on was the one in my groin, that is the closest he ever got to my vagina but it was by far the worst pain ever... no lie, it caused me to go insane). It was excruciating and sent this type of "nerve shock" through my whole body causing it to convulse. It actually felt like a shock. It's weird. Oh he also focused on nerve bundles and stuff. 



My mom and I weren't really ever close at all. She tried to be close to me but I hated her with such an intensity because I was poisoned against her by my dad and his family (parental alienation) and severe triangulations and lies and deceit. Plus I hated her for the things I saw her do. The whole dynamic of my family both immediate and extended is/was very messed up...



I understand naked doesn't always mean sexual... It's just a feeling I got from her. "Bad vibes" that's all I can call them. They made me feel creeped out, violated, and many other things. It's a weird dynamic. Neither of my parents wanted to teach me much of anything in terms of maturing. Ugh. Sickening. It's like they wanted me to stay little and stuff so they could take care of me forever. That was the feeling I used to get.



The cuddle times with my mom and her nakedness made me very uncomfortable... And I got those "bad feelings" when she did the cuddling and stuff, not when I was really little mind you but as I got older I got very uncomfortable... I cannot explain it but she put off these really creepy and "sick" feelings... I would say that I was about 9-13 when I stopped liking her cuddle times... But she still insisted on them, I would make up any excuse I could to not cuddle with her or to avoid her, but then she would guilt trip me into doing it with her anyway so sometimes I did because I felt bad... But I didn't really want to.



Yeah, then the things with my dad... I wouldn't feel comfortable when my dad did that torture stuff (the tendon stuff) and when he touched close to/right on top of practically, my vagina. Nor was I comfortable when he would do the tickle stuff with me cuz he um, well I didn't know what the "feelings" were at the time but looking back through adult eye I can identify them me being aroused... Because he would use his mouth, light finger touches, and whiskers and stuff all over my body to do the tickling... And it made me aroused I think... Oh god... I reacted to it as it was very sensual to me and I got this "feeling" from that... It was almost like a lover caressing me with their mouth on my body. I don't know if he meant it as sexual but that is just how it felt to me; especially looking back...



I was at least 7 or 8 when they stopped bathing me I think, but they would still come in and not give me privacy... I don't know if I was that uncomfortable with the bath time at the time because I it seemed so normal to me...



In fact, when I was 12 or 13 I remember a little kid (he was maybe 6?) who had weird looking hair, I asked him why. He said, "Because I didn't get all the shampoo out.

"

I asked him, "Your mom doesn't know how to get your shampoo out?"



He laughed at me and said, "No she stopped bathing me when I was like 3!"



I was so confused. I think I even thought, "Wow he has bad parents." Because I couldn't fathom such a thing.... It seemed so normal to me to still have baths where your parents washed your body.

[LovelyChantel]

I feel bad and guilty for posting this.

[mindwrench]

I'm sorry you feel guilty, you didn't do anything wrong. I'm no authority on it, but that does sound like sexual abuse from both parents. I have not really dealt with that aspect of my childhood yet, but I can relate to feeling of knowing things are not right.

[LovelyChantel]

Originally Posted by mindwrench

I'm sorry you feel guilty, you didn't do anything wrong. I'm no authority on it, but that does sound like sexual abuse from both parents. I have not really dealt with that aspect of my childhood yet, but I can relate to feeling of knowing things are not right.

I'm sorry you can relate. I can't believe this though because that doesn't go along with how I view my parents. They really do love me. So it's confusing. I mean parents who love their children don't sexually abuse them do they? Or maybe they can be sexually abusive yet really love their children and also do really great things too. Because that's how it was for me and I'm just lost.

[mindwrench]

I guess when I think of behaviors in terms of something being abuse or not, it is in the context of whether they would be in trouble with cps or the law if they knew what they were doing.

[LovelyChantel]

Originally Posted by mindwrench

I guess when I think of behaviors in terms of something being abuse or not, it is in the context of whether they would be in trouble with cps or the law if they knew what they were doing.

Yeah that makes sense. I don't know if they would be though. It's all so covert. I doubt anyone would notice. I mean, no one did.

[mostlylurking]

Hi Chantel, it was really brave of you to post this, and probably a really healthy thing for you to write this stuff down like that somewhere. If you were ever to see a therapist (maybe you do?) I think printing that out for them to read would be extremely helpful.

That is definitely sexual abuse, by both parents I would say but absolutely no question with your dad. I wouldn't call it covert or non-touching either. Your own sexual behaviors as a child would be typical in response to sexual abuse, essentially a reflection of the damage being done to you. Also, if he was causing you pain like that, that was also physical abuse.

I understand his feelings are/were intense but they sound very, very different than what fathers should normally feel toward their daughters. It sounds a lot more like what abusive husbands sometimes feel toward their wives. I am sorry to say that, but I feel like you're asking what people think of his behavior, and I think what you're describing is a serious and pervasive level of sexual, physical and emotional abuse from him in your childhood.

Is there any way for you to see someone (a therapist I mean) who could help you with all of this? It seems to be a lot. You might need someone who specializes in trauma survivors and who has a good deal of experience because it sounds like the abuse was really multi-faceted. But I realize, if you live in the US sometimes our health insurance is terrible when it comes to mental health.

[ThisWayOut]

You are not bad for posting that. I know it may feel like it, but you are not... that was incredibly courageous to post. Thank you for trusting us enough to share.
I would agree that it's quite abusive...
I hate when situations get confusing. I can relate to knowing your parents were doing something out of genuine love, even if their idea of it was totally off. I struggle with those same doubts around stuff that went on in my childhood. It would be so much easier to process it all if there was only fear and hate. The love makes it confusing. Sadly, some parents have a really warped idea of love. My dad was t is that way. Some of the things you mentioned in your post are very relatable...
I hope you either have a t you can work through this with, or can find one...

[LovelyChantel]

Originally Posted by mostlylurking

Hi Chantel, it was really brave of you to post this, and probably a really healthy thing for you to write this stuff down like that somewhere. If you were ever to see a therapist (maybe you do?) I think printing that out for them to read would be extremely helpful.

That is definitely sexual abuse, by both parents I would say but absolutely no question with your dad. I wouldn't call it covert or non-touching either. Your own sexual behaviors as a child would be typical in response to sexual abuse, essentially a reflection of the damage being done to you. Also, if he was causing you pain like that, that was also physical abuse.

I understand his feelings are/were intense but they sound very, very different than what fathers should normally feel toward their daughters. It sounds a lot more like what abusive husbands sometimes feel toward their wives. I am sorry to say that, but I feel like you're asking what people think of his behavior, and I think what you're describing is a serious and pervasive level of sexual, physical and emotional abuse from him in your childhood.

Is there any way for you to see someone (a therapist I mean) who could help you with all of this? It seems to be a lot. You might need someone who specializes in trauma survivors and who has a good deal of experience because it sounds like the abuse was really multi-faceted. But I realize, if you live in the US sometimes our health insurance is terrible when it comes to mental health.

Thanks for your reply. It means a lot. Yes I am currently seeing a trauma informed therapist who specializes in childhood traumas. Yes it was multi-faceted for sure. Thank you.

[LovelyChantel]

Originally Posted by ThisWayOut

You are not bad for posting that. I know it may feel like it, but you are not... that was incredibly courageous to post. Thank you for trusting us enough to share.
I would agree that it's quite abusive...
I hate when situations get confusing. I can relate to knowing your parents were doing something out of genuine love, even if their idea of it was totally off. I struggle with those same doubts around stuff that went on in my childhood. It would be so much easier to process it all if there was only fear and hate. The love makes it confusing. Sadly, some parents have a really warped idea of love. My dad was t is that way. Some of the things you mentioned in your post are very relatable...
I hope you either have a t you can work through this with, or can find one...

I have a T yes. She specializes in PTSD and traumas. I am sorry you can relate. Yes that's how I've always felt. Because it was definelty not all bad. In fact most of it was good. So confusing. Thank you again.