[seesaw]

One of my clients is a small music ensemble that also has a consultant working for them as their executive director. I'm trying to not butt heads with this other consultant, who certainly has skills in some areas, but she has no marketing skills and is doing all the marketing work for the organization. I'm consulting in fund development/fundraising. I have to do a lot of writing for the organization, and since I'm experienced in writing marketing copy and fundraising copy, my writing is a lot better than hers.

Anyways, I sent a draft of a grant proposal to her to give me some notes and she sent me back some marketing copy that she had created for the website to use instead. The copy isn't all bad and certainly I can incorporate some of it, but most of it is getting left out. That's not my problem. I make the call on what gets submitted for grants since that's why I was hired.

Here's my dilemma. She sent me this copy for the website, and I feel like there are problems with it and ways it could be a lot stronger. BUT, I'm not being paid to consult in that area. And I don't have the time to deal with it. I'm not on salary. I get paid a fee that is contingent on money being raised. It's not a commission. It's a set fee per month; the pay schedule is what's on contingency. The point is, I'm really not being paid to give my opinion on that stuff, and while I feel like my opinion is valuable, I also don't want to give it away for free.

At the same time, I don't want an organization I'm consulting for to be putting language on its website that I don't think is very good. I feel like somehow that makes me look bad by association.

Maybe I'm just venting here so I don't go put my foot in my mouth with the client.

This is a recurring problem I have where I have a specific job and I see someone else not doing a very good job, so I want to offer assistance to help them make their thing better. I won't say it's always gotten me in trouble, because that's not true. Sometimes initiative is appreciated; sometimes it's seen as a threat.

I guess I could just ask outright if she wants some feedback on her copy. And if so, I could give her my notes. It's not a total mess, it just needs to be tightened up. And she herself has admitted that this kind of writing is not her strength.

BUT AGAIN, I don't want to work on something I'm not being paid for. Sigh...I don't know...stay in my lane or offer help?

Seesaw

Stay in your lane, definitely. And not just because of the reasons you listed. Your incredible work ethic shines through every post I've ever read from you. But if you're now working for yourself, as I have been for several years now, my advice would be to avoid doing pro bono unless you say that's what you're doing right from the start. I have my cash cow clients, those I do where I just break even because of the experience/ potential and those I do at a loss or for free, like charities I care about. I planned a good mix of voluntary and non executive work alongside well paid consultancy and I mix and match at different times of year. You'd be working for free off brief for a client who may/ may not appreciate it, with some unknown dynamics with another consultant, and I think after the crappy experience with your last employer, could end up giving you **** you don't need right now. So smile and do your thing but if you feel the need to improve things is an itch that still needs scratching, do it for a good voluntary cause. Success in consultancy is when their payment clears and they ask you back! Glad to see you're doing well BTW

[seesaw]

Good advice. And also, I just tallied my hours and I've really been spending more than I wanted to lately. That's okay because in January and February I will spend less time, and still should get paid the same, but I still want to be mindful of how much time I spend on their projects considering that I am on SSDI and this is supplemental work.

Seesaw

[seesaw]

Ug, on another note, this fellow consultant has been stepping all over my toes. She just sent me an email, copying the Artistic Director and President about a grant workshop for our state grant program that's happening in a town like 90 minutes from here, and saying that it would be good for someone from our organization to be there. There is no reason to go to those workshops unless you have questions or are new to the process. I am not new to their process. I have submitted multiple applications under that state grant program. It's a waste of my hours that I need to commit elsewhere and also, I really can't afford to up and drive for 3 hours to go to it.

I responded to her saying I've applied to the state numerous times and don't feel the need to go to their workshop. They have multiple resources available online (webinars and such) and their staff responds to questions very quickly. Frankly, I've been to their workshops before and they aren't very helpful to me, because I have been doing this a long time. If you're new to this field or aren't a professional grant writer, these workshops are helpful in preparing your application, but if you do it for a living, it's really a waste of time.

I have a feeling she's going to write back insisting that someone go.

She is an administrative consultant, and she is getting paid a set amount of money a month for 11 hours a month. I am committed to approximately 20 hours a month and my fee is a lot more than hers, because I am an actual fundraiser and bring in money.

Sigh...I know she was just suggesting, but I do this every day of my life professionally. I know what's necessary and what's not.

Seesaw

How old is she compared to you? If she's younger and less experienced, maybe she's just trying to help because she finds you a little intimidating professionally?

[seesaw]

Originally Posted by Little Cat

How old is she compared to you? If she's younger and less experienced, maybe she's just trying to help because she finds you a little intimidating professionally?

No, she's older.

It turns out that I have a conflict with the workshop anyhow. Even though I disagree with our need to go to it (she says we should build a relationship with the staff, I disagree with that based on my experience it's just not necessary), so anyways, I just responded I have a conflict with it. And she said no problem and that she would figure out if she or someone else could go.

I'm getting really pissed that everytime I disagree it's got to turn into a war, and that it's always about my area of expertise. I'm also a consultant not an employee so she cannot direct my work in this way unless they want to change the nature of our relationship and make me an employee and pay the payroll taxes for me.

Ug, just have to pick my battles and just get used to the fact that she's going to continue to annoy me but I don't have to let it affect me.

Seesaw

[seesaw]

I'm really struggling with this. I very much disagree with her that someone needs to go to this workshop because I do not believe it will be helpful. She has had an experience working with a very large local regranting agency and because she engaged staff she got extra visibility from them, but that's unlikely to happen in this case for this organization because it's not a regranting agency and SO much smaller. I do not find there will be any extra benefit at this point.

The problem is, if I express this and voice my opinion, she's going to rebut in a way that's invalidates ALL my experience doing this. I'm just so caught up in my need to people please, and I don't know how to be comfortable with saying, I disagree, this is why, and you can take that advice or leave it. You can follow the other consultant's advice if you want to, or mine. It's up to you.

I think because she is older than me she somehow thinks that she knows more than me. But she has never done my job before or even at the high level I have done it at. I think I need to keep reminding myself that my opinion matters and it's okay if she disagrees with me. I can give a counter opinion and let the client decide.

Seesaw

[guilloche]

From the sound of it, you could actually *teach* the grant writing workshop!

There's got to be a way to (nicely) shut down this behavior of hers. Do you think it's coming from a place of truly wanting to help, or is it about something else? It sounds like she might not realize that you have as much experience as you do... and while, really, it's none of her business, I can see how she might (maybe) think she's being "helpful".

How are you responding?

I really hate to say it, and maybe I'm wrong, but it feels like one of those instances where, if you were a man, your experience/authority wouldn't be questioned. Did you see the article a couple months back about the two resume writers working together, for the same boss? The boss insisted that the woman was doing a poorer job, was slower, not getting enough done. Then, one day, the male employee accidentally used the woman's email signature (they shared an email account) - and suddenly, he was getting pushback, questions, and responses that he never, ever got - from the same client base. Instead of taking his suggestions, the clients were questioning everything he did. And these were clients he had already been working with, who he had no problems with before.

As an experiment, they traded "names" for a week or so, and that response held up. The woman had the most productive week that she'd had since she started working there, and the man suddenly found he couldn't get anything done.

This is sad and amazing to me.

I'm not sure what the right way to address it is either. In theory, as you continue working for them and she sees that you're effective and getting results, you'd think/hope that her desire to "help" would decrease (she'd gain confidence in you, and back off a little). But, if she's a micromanager by nature... that might not happen.

Since she's an administrative person, and not your supervisor, are there any repercussions of just politely telling her, "thanks for the advice, I'll consider that" and going about your business?

Personally, I'd probably try to use a little humor and develop rapport with her, and I'd point out something like, "Thanks for pointing out the workshop, but I've been working with this group long enough that I could *teach* it!" (I think to make that work, you have to be able to play it off a bit though, sort of laugh at the situation and make it seem like no big deal, and I don't know if that would work here or if you'd be comfortable with it.)

re: The web copy, yeah - I'd definitely vote for not taking on unpaid work. Especially since, if she's not asking you for help, your advice might be unwelcome - in the same way that her advice about the workshop is.

Good luck!

Edit: I found the article, if you're curious:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b054a0ea6a4066

[seesaw]

I actually read that article when it came out!

I don't know if it's a gender thing. I think maybe it's an age thing and she doesn't know my whole resume so she doesn't realize that I have quite a bit more expertise than she does.

In this instance there's not much to do. I've said that I'm unavailable to attend the workshop because of other commitments that I have that day, so that's my out right now. When I disagree with her in the future, I will simply state my case and say this is what I think on this matter. I know it's different than what you think. The client can decide what they want to do and if they decide to go with your plan, I won't be offended.

I just don't understand, if she was going to be so nosy about my work and trying to jump in my lane, so to speak, why didn't she just contract with them to do both jobs? I mean, I'm not at all unhappy to have this client. I'm very happy to have this steady work. It's an ongoing contract and so far they're happy with my work and now that I can submit my first invoice, I'm fairly pleased too. But I just don't understand that if she has so many opinions about this work, and so much experience, as she claims, then why is she only doing 11 hours a month as an administrator? Why didn't she work out with them a contract to do the fundraising too and contract for more hours per month? I don't think she has a whole lot of other clients.

I just feel like she is always trying to one-up me. And I am not in competition with her, so I don't understand why she's always trying to show me up. Like when she suggested the workshop, my response at first was, I've been to their workshops before and I've submitted these kinds of applications for years, I do not feel it's necessary to spend time driving a 3 hour round trip to go to this workshop. And her response was, well I have lots of experience doing this too, but I think we need to meet with the staff who give out the grants and build a relationship.

My response was simply, yes it's good to build relationships with staff (even though I disagreed - because the staff has no control over who gets a grant. THe grants are reviewed by a panel of experts and scored...you get money by scoring over a certain number, and the criteria is laid out so you can prepare an application that addresses all the criteria - if you know how to write the application properly, you can almost certainly secure a small amount of funding. I have taken numerous organizations through their first time applying for these types of funding and have never been rejected.) SO my response was, "yes, it's good to build relationships with staff. But unfortunately, I have a deadline for another client to the Sundance Institute (yes I threw out a big name, and it's true) on Wednesday and we're going to be down to the wire, so I am unavailable."

She replied that she would work with the board chair and artistic director to see who would go. THEN the board chair chimed in that he actually didn't think it was a good use of time either. (Which made me bust out laughing.) That's when the consultant emailed out a long story about how when she worked for the local regranting agency, which is like 20 times as large as we are, that she made it a point to get to know the staff and mingle with them and that's how she got them to spotlight them on their website, etc...and that's great....but it did not result in any additional funding for them. I know because my other organization was in competition with the local arts agency for funding and we scored higher and so got more money from the state. And I didn't do any of that mingling. I just wrote an excellent proposal and made sure all the criteria were hit. So it really does not affect your funding level. Can it possibly get some exposure? Sure, but will that exposure actually end up in additional audience members? Probably not. Most regular people don't subscribe to their state's cultural division's email newsletter. In fact, unless you're a grant seeker, you typically don't.

Is it worth it to call them and chat with them about what we're doing and get feedback, etc? Sure. And I will do that before our application is due because there are some issue that I need to resolve in the application. Is it necessary to spend 5 hours on going to their workshop when I could be better spending that time actually raising money? No. So if she wants to go to improve some kind of exposure to the organization, fine.

Do I need to say all this to her? Nah, I don't think so. I have an out at this point, so that's enough.

Seesaw

[guilloche]

It sounds like you've got it all under control!

My only worry, and you may have thought of this already so please forgive me if it's redundant, is that by using "I'm busy" as an out - it sort of implies that you think it's a good idea, and would go, if only you weren't busy. So, it might make her feel like she's on the right track, offering good suggestions, and that she should continue to push for stuff like this. (IE Basically, it might positively reinforce her.)

But it sounds like your board member is on the same page as you, so that's good!

It is bizarre that she feels like she needs to one-up you, but that might just be her own issues/insecurities coming in to play.

Anyway, it sounds like they're lucky to have you!

[ArchieAus]

Sometimes by trying to justify we can actually give fuel to the fire . You've resolved this and the important person in the conversation ( the one paying the money , the client ) has supported your mindset on it . Once you clearly state your standpoint on a suggestion in your area of expertise " no , I do not feel it would be of benefit , due to A , B and C " then its end of discussion . If the other person being retained wants to go on with it and push the point. Don't respond . Yes , send another group email after an acceptable time period , but change the direction of the conversation to what you feel is the next important step to complete the given task. Try not to have that period of self doubt . You got there shortly after where you felt vindicated that the client agreed with your viewpoint . You are in control . These are my skills , I stand by them . I will complete the task . If you drive into my lane I will calmly indicate around you and continue my course .

[seesaw]

Originally Posted by ArchieAus

Sometimes by trying to justify we can actually give fuel to the fire . You've resolved this and the important person in the conversation ( the one paying the money , the client ) has supported your mindset on it . Once you clearly state your standpoint on a suggestion in your area of expertise " no , I do not feel it would be of benefit , due to A , B and C " then its end of discussion . If the other person being retained wants to go on with it and push the point. Don't respond . Yes , send another group email after an acceptable time period , but change the direction of the conversation to what you feel is the next important step to complete the given task. Try not to have that period of self doubt . You got there shortly after where you felt vindicated that the client agreed with your viewpoint . You are in control . These are my skills , I stand by them . I will complete the task . If you drive into my lane I will calmly indicate around you and continue my course .

I am just such a people pleaser and approval seeker, due to my abusive past, that it's hard for me to sit calmly while someone is potentially angry with me. But everything that you've said is right.

Seesaw

[seesaw]

OMG...she just sent me a friendly email to let me know what all her job duties/responsibilities are because she didn't think that anyone had shared it with me and for some reason she copied the board chair and artistic director on it. I do not know why she is trying to pull these power moves on me. I do not understand what her issue is. I just responded with "thanks."

[ArchieAus]

Yes , there's no doubt you have the intelligence and experience to see all that for yourself . But I can understand the emotional response is difficult to control . Funny thing the brain isn't it . We hold so much information in it of all the experiences of our life . It's stored . But not just the experiences , but what our response was and how we dealt with it . Like CD's in a library . So something similar comes along and the brain reaches for the CD it knows this info is stored on and it influences our response . Influences even our physical reactions. It's not easy to re write those CD's so you can replace them with ones where you react differently . I hate to offer advice in an area and about a human I know nothing about , but wonder if you could try something next time you feel that feeling making you panic . Think to yourself , "no this is not the response I choose . My subconscious can put the CD back on the shelf . My conscious mind will take this one , I am going to choose how I feel and how I will respond . I am confident and I am in control and I'm writing a new CD for the rack " Once isn't going to be enough ...you'd have to do it a million times to replace the natural reaction to confrontation or anything stored in your mind . But just thought I would pass on a trick someone told me many years ago , and apologies for offering advice .
p.s. re the smarmy email about her duties . She's digging her own grave with the client , you don't need to do anything . She's making herself look incompetent .

[seesaw]

Originally Posted by ArchieAus

Yes , there's no doubt you have the intelligence and experience to see all that for yourself . But I can understand the emotional response is difficult to control . Funny thing the brain isn't it . We hold so much information in it of all the experiences of our life . It's stored . But not just the experiences , but what our response was and how we dealt with it . Like CD's in a library . So something similar comes along and the brain reaches for the CD it knows this info is stored on and it influences our response . Influences even our physical reactions. It's not easy to re write those CD's so you can replace them with ones where you react differently . I hate to offer advice in an area and about a human I know nothing about , but wonder if you could try something next time you feel that feeling making you panic . Think to yourself , "no this is not the response I choose . My subconscious can put the CD back on the shelf . My conscious mind will take this one , I am going to choose how I feel and how I will respond . I am confident and I am in control and I'm writing a new CD for the rack " Once isn't going to be enough ...you'd have to do it a million times to replace the natural reaction to confrontation or anything stored in your mind . But just thought I would pass on a trick someone told me many years ago , and apologies for offering advice .
p.s. re the smarmy email about her duties . She's digging her own grave with the client , you don't need to do anything . She's making herself look incompetent .

Thanks. I appreciate the support.