[shadowalker164]

“if there is a wet drunk out there reading this, I tell you this now, that if you follow the 12 steps as outlined in the program of Alcoholics Anonymous, and do so thoroughly and with the aid of a sponsor, you will get and stay sober. That is a promise.”

i qualified that promise with the key word “thoroughly” that is the one thing that separates success stories from repeated failure.

In my opinion, the reason most men don’t succeed is they can’t or won’t proceed in a process they don’t believe will work for them.
How can 12 stupid steps printed on the wall pay my rent? How can they get my girlfriend back? Or get the law off my back?
The new man is right in as far as he takes it, the 12 steps won’t pay his rent, or keep him out of jail, that’s not what they work on. That’s not what they do.

I accept that you might not believe that a spiritual experience is real, you are hardly alone in that. I didn’t believe it myself when I was first exposed to it. I honestly thought that these people were misguided. Kind enough, but suffering from some form of mass hysteria. Each one of them reinforces this fictitious belief system in each other.

But I was blessed with no more good ideas. And this is of critical importants to the new person just coming in, I was willing to listen to someone else within whom the problem had been solved. And I was willing to commence actions that I did not entirely believe would work in my case.

What the steps are designed to do is, to slowly do for us what alcohol did quickly. Change this world from a hostile, unfriendly place into a more warm welcoming one.

The book puts it very well…
on page 27 it reads and I quote.
"he said to the doctor, “is there no exception?”
“yes replied the doctor, there is. Exceptions to cases like yours have been occurring since early times. Here and there, once in a while, alcoholics have had what are called vital spiritual experiences. To me these occurrences are in the nature of huge emotional displacements and rearrangements. Ideas, emotions, and attitudes which were once the guiding forces of the lives of these men are suddenly cast to one side, and a completely new set of conceptions and motives begin to dominate them."

that is what those 12 stupid steps, as outlined in the program of Alcoholics Anonymous, and done thoroughly and with the aid of a sponsor, will do in a hopeless alcoholic’s life.

Thank God
your friend on this long strange trip,
Richard

[goofygirl]

Also, there is the belief that you have to believe in God, but a Higher Power can be anything other than yourself. I have many friends in the fellowship who have a HP such as nature, the fellowship, The Great Spirit (like Native Americans), and tons more. "God" is pretty much a catch all due to the way that the English language is set up, in my honest, goofy little opinion. I know my HP is a freaking mutt, but my HP works for me.

[dogtanian]

i don't mean to be devil's advocate or whatever else, this is a genuine question so please don't jump on me! i think the 12 steps are a viable option of help but this higer power thing does bother me - what if you *genuinely* don't believe in anything over and above yourself?

i am having to stop my self drinking at the moment as it's getting a bit dodgy again, but i can honestly say i don't believe in anything beyond me. that's not meant to sound egotistical or arrogant - i don't mean it in that way, more in that i'm a strong believer in the "if i don't help myself in life, no one else will, i can only rely on one being and that's me, ultimately" - now this is ok in that it does mean i take my own failings on myself and i admit i have many, but it's not helpful when asked to name a higher power.

i could choose someone i admire - but most of my icons are dead, and all the people i know that i could pick (well i can't think of anyone i would pick but for argument's sake) are going to die at some point probably reasonably soon.

i could pick someone or thing fictional - but again, how could i put my faith in something i know doesn't exist?

same goes for all religious ideas - i'm one of the staunchest atheists i've ever met, i genuinely think that there is nothing beyond he grave etc etc.

i could put my faith in nature/earth, but i know it's going to wipe us all out at some point - it is possibly the most powerful thing i can think of, but given that natural disasters on a scale never witnessed are probable in my lifetime, i'd not be comfortable with that either.

i could put my trust in martians/aliens - i'm convinced they exist - after all, believing we are the only intelligent (huh!) life in the entire universe is arrogant in the extreme - but surely if aliens were going to show us the light, so to speak, we would be able to tell this would happen, again it's too flimsy.

what on earth is there that could possibly let me put my trust outside myself? because at the moment i believe i am only beholden to one entity in the universe and that's myself. and i sure as hell don't trust myself to sort myself out!

sorry if this sounds like i'm being wilfully difficult, it really is a hard question for me.

[goofygirl]

At least you are open!

[dogtanian]

that is something i suppose. it is something that's bothered me for a long time

[goofygirl]

Trust me... I have the most unconventional HP... personally don't care what anyone thinks of it... all I know is it works for me, and when push comes to shove, that's really all that matters, is it not?

[dogtanian]

yeah, that's precisely what matters - having a higher power that is liable to fluctuate with what others may say/think seems a bit pointless, it would have to be something that to me would be utterly immovable, unchangeing, perfect i suppose - and i don't think of anything in those terms. so i guess that's me beat.

[goofygirl]

(((Dog)))... your HP changes with you, not with anyone else. It can be as simple as a set of ideals that can fluctuate to fit where you are at any given day, at any given moment. Something that's always going to be what you need... no more, no less.

[dogtanian]

i can see that, but that's where i get unstuck - if i choose a "thing" (person, being, planet etc) then that thing is dependent on others as well as me - as well as on outside influences such as nature/belief.

i'm not knocking the steps per se, just that i find this bit so hard to sort out in my head

[goofygirl]

Keep it simple... people are by their very nature falliable, so steer clear of them! Just take the qualities that you admire, and go from there... does that make any sense?

[shadowalker164]

Dog,
I'm with you on this one, why should I believe in something I can't feel, hear, taste, smell or see? It sounds too self delusional.

I used to drop acid with this other burned out helicopter mechanic in the jungles of Viet Nam many, many years ago.

We would get really stoned and he would take out this black marker and he would write "The kingdom of God is within you" all over helicopter gun ships. He wrote that simple spiritual statement on machine gun ammo boxes, on the insides of radio access panels, on rocket launchers, cannons, everywhere.
I thought that tagging those death dealing machines with "The kingdom of God is within you" was the funniest thing. And it really irritated the Army, which was also a good thing.

Years later I found myself trying to not drink for one day at a time, and somebody told me that God could relieve me of that obsession. I wasn't at all sure that was so, but I remembered what my most spiritual friend had penned many years earlier.

Then I read in the Big Book, way in the back, the "Spiritual Experience" and it says, "we have tapped an unsuspected inner resource". And it clicked.
Maybe my old stoner buddy and the guys that wrote the Big Book are talking about the same thing.
Just like that sorry little voice telling me good things won't last is an undesirable inner resource, the Kingdom of God may be that unsuspected inner resource that is the counterstroke to that insanity.

The Hindu's have an interesting take on God, You, Me, all of us are God, we just don't know it. The Buddhist have a similar idea, (Buddha means to awaken) once we awaken to the true reality of the world, the fight over questions about where God lives are over. This power greater than myself has always been in me, I just blocked it's existence from my rational mind. This program doesn't go out and find anything, it removes in us the things that keep it a secret to us.

The reason I chose to become willing to accept any part of this idea of spirituality is pain. The pain of active alcoholism was worse than the pain of swallowing my pride and admitting that maybe I didn't know everything.
Just a thought


Richard S.

[dogtanian]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
Keep it simple... people are by their very nature falliable, so steer clear of them! Just take the qualities that you admire, and go from there... does that make any sense?

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

it does but i don't see enough admirable qualities in anything and those i do see are tempered by bad qualities - nothing and no-one is perfect. "it's not that i can't find worth in anything, it's just that i can't find worth in enough"

and to the last poster (sorry, forgot your name) i don't for a second think i know everything - i would readily swallow pride (not that i have much to swallow) if i thought there was anything that could deal with the world on my behalf and better than me. thing is i'm a philosophy student and on an almost daily basis i question the world but i question religion and belief in things outside what's tangible more because i just can't see how they are possible, but also because i genuinely believe such things (i'm talking about god and stuff, not the universe, which is scientfically discoverable) are just things that the human mind invents to atone for problems, to justify their existence, to make excuses i suppose, to stop them having to face up to the reality that humanity is, at the end of the day, not very nice. that is why i can't do the higher power thing, because i think humanity is the only thing that can help itself and all over i see people making excuses for themselves (that's not to say i think religion is wrong, or that i think humans are the only intelligent life)

sorry if this has hijacked the thread - it's not meant but i am genuinely interested as to this whole higher power thing

[shadowalker164]

I didn't want to submit to a crutch, some soft headed phyo-babble about a power greater than myself. God if you will.

It is my life, nobody was going to tell me how to live it. I can remember sitting in my living room drunk as a skunk, waving wildly at the front door and slurring the words "This is my house, this is my bottle and it's gonna be my way, if you don't like any one of them, don't let the door hit you in the ***** on the way out".

But as it turns out, I was blessed. Towards the end of my drinking career I was blessed with no more good ideas. Every one of my "good ideas" had blown up in my face. I was out of gas. At that point, I was beaten into a position of reasonableness.

With the help of men wiser than myself, I discovered I am surrounded by powers greater than myself all the time. Every time I looked in my rear view mirror, and saw those blue lights flashing, I knew that a power greater than myself was going to be tapping on my driver's side window soon enough.

The bottle was a power greater than myself, If I could quit on my own, I would have done so, and there would be no need to make my first meeting. I was staring a power greater than myself right in the face.

I accepted the fact that there are powers greater than myself out there. The question that faced me is can I find one that can relieve me of the obsession to drink.

"You may be suffering from a disease that only a spiritual experience will conquer." A good friend once said to me. He also said "If the word God runs you off, I ain't worried, liquor will run you back". Just for the record, by the time most people who try to control their alcohol intake, real control has slipped away some time ago.

Then he said, "If you think you can beat this game on your own, without a power greater than yourself, I wish you luck. But if you find that that just ain't happening, may I offer you a quote I'm rather fond of...

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

Your friend on this long strange trip
Richard S.

[shadowalker164]

One more thought on this question.

It's not just the idea that there are powers greater than myself all around, all the time that stumped me when I first showed up as a wet drunk, it was the idea that reliance was based on blind faith. I came in as an agnostic. How can I possibly know if there is really anything out there? How can anyone? Those guys that believe in this higher power thing either learned it as a kid in Sunday school, or they are just afraid of dying. And if they just believe real hard (whistle past the graveyard) they won't be so afraid.

I have always been a big fan of the scientific method. Don't give me a bunch of mumbo-jumbo and except me to buy it. I want proof. Scientific proof. One scientist will concoct a formula, mix a given amount of substance "A" with a given amount of substance "B" and he always gets compound "C". Take that same experiment anywhere in the world, follow the mixing instructions carefully and I'll always get the same result, "C". That's the kind of proof I like.

The proposition that was put forward to me by the men in the rooms when I first showed up was the same. They told me that I couldn't say that a simple set of spiritual principles as outlined in the program would not work on my problems if I didn't conduct the experiment. It was suggested that I follow the mixing instructions exactly, and if I didn't like the result at the end of the process, I could have my old stuff back, no questions asked. They used my own words to box me in.

What did I have to lose? Again, I was blessed with a lack of good alternative ideas. Falteringly, fearfully, apprehensively I began to mix "A" & "B".
This program (AA) does not work for a lot of people, every other program I know anything about doesn't work for a bunch of folks. But I tell you this, what really didn't work worth a s*** was trying to fix me all by my self in secret. That my friend was a fools errand.

I made a very hard going of life near the end of my personal goat path. The old relationships with my favorite substances was to be no more. Those old happy days were over. Over any measurable length of time this stuff only gets worse, it never gets better. That bitter news sounded like a death sentence to me. But I was wrong. It was the truth, and the truth will set me free. Knowing the truth about myself is a very powerful medicine. It is the beginning of all progress.

If the idea of wearing this world, warts and all, as a loose fitting garment is at all appealing to you, try what I tried, You really have very little to lose. Maybe a few hours spent with people who laugh and have that old sparkle in their eyes. But compared to the hours that I squandered in self induced oblivion, there really is no comparison.

As always, a man will decide for himself what he will and what he will not do, but don't let false pride, fear or contempt prior to investigation keep you from looking at this for what it is. This power greater than ourselves wants you to be happy and free, but this power isn't a labor saving device, action is required.

Nobody can get anyone sober, not a sponsor, not a meeting, and not just saying no. Without the needed power, and working the steps is how I found it, nothing changes.

There is an old Chinese proverb that goes something like this,
"Trust in God, but row away from the rocks."

Your friend on the road to the good stuff,
Richard S.

[dogtanian]

i don't have contempt for it, nor am i unwilling to investigate, but it seems difficult still. i think maybe i have issues with the fact that something/one is looking down on us - i just can't see it. and if there is a greater power i can't reconcile it with wanting us to be happy when i see so much horror in the world. sorry, but there it is.

but so far my quitting alone is going ok - and i wish you luck too xx

[shadowalker164]

Dog…
You posted the best statement in the beginning of this thread.
“this is a genuine question”
In fact it is in my opinion the best question a person in your position could be asking.
Like I said before, I believe that this “insight” or “spiritual awakening” is an inside job. It didn’t come from the outside in, but from the inside out. It was in me from the moment of my first breath. I just wasn’t availing myself of it until things got real bad. Then like a falling man, I clutched at what I took to be a feather.

Dog, I stand before you as someone within whom something fundamental has changed. I don’t spend a bunch of time trying to identify exactly what changed in me, who how it changed, I am just so very glad that it did.

I am also with you on the question of suffering in the world. It is truly full of more sadness and heartache than we can ever know.

But here I’m gonna bust your chops a little bit.
Yea, the world is a grossly imperfect place. It always has been and it always will be. But if you use that pitiful fact as an excuse to do nothing, then I think it is your fear of change, your fear of the unknown, your fear of spiritual action that is the real motivator. It is not some poorly formed rational about lack of perfection that holds your feet.

I’m glad that your quitting alone is going well, I am happy for you. This program that I am so fond of isn’t the only way to get and stay sober. Not by a long shot. Many men succeed in this getting sober business in a myriad of different fashions. But, and this is important, very few of them do it alone. We get better together.

On the road to the good stuff,
Richard S.

[seeker1950]

Okey dokey...
There has been a lot of eloquent writing here, and mine will not be so! My observation of AA and the twelve step programs is a lot of self-absorbed people who like to talk about themselves and wallow in it!....and a "revolving door" for backsliders. In some ways, I see AA as enabling.
Higher power....I believe in it, but ultimately, I am going to have to choose for myself. If I can't do it alone, I will seek help in another arena.
Seeker

[BamaSurvivor]

I'd have to disagree with you there, seeker. 12 Step programs aren't about self pity and self centeredness... Actually, that's what the 12 Steps are trying to turn you away from. In our active addiction, all we were about was, "me, me, me" and "take, take take"... It was never about giving or helping others. AA/NA is all about that.

[LostandLonleySoul]

I couldn't have said it better. I have found that in my sobriety that i have been going to meetings and that has helped. There are people there that can help you more than a "normal" person can because someone has been in that situation.