Normal people don’t care

You kind of like to identify with the diagnosis, but at the same time, you are judging others how they see you. Since it is YOU who think what everyone thinks of you, don't you think it is possible that YOU actualy think this of yourself and atrribute it as their judgment, while it is yours in fact (projection in technical terms..) and the reasons this happens is perhaps you don't want to see yourself as a judging person (and hence again, you see everyone else as a judging one?) ... ?

Yes, this is always a possibility of course. But, something like that, if it is occurring, doesn't rise up out of the blue.

I was a person who lived in total ignorance before the diagnosis. I believed people were not judging, that people were neutral and accepting, and that people in general liked me somewhat, I even thought I was normal. Hell, if anything, I was giving them the benefit of the doubt. I'm done taking the blame for everything. Other people's insecurities about me are not my fault. They conjure up all this stuff in their minds and they want me to live it, so that they can be "proven" right. And yes, I know what projection is, I have been living it my whole life. Even if I have projections of my own, it is not possible for me to express them remember. A mirror cannot make it's own image up, it can only reflect the images it gets.

It was when that way of thinking of mine, where I thought everyone was cool with me and happy with me, was put to the test later in my life, when I began to realize people were judging me hugely, and there was stuff about me they hated and that they hid this from me.

I went through the same thought processes. I first said to myself, no, it's just my thoughts, they don't really dislike/hate me, I am just perceiving it that way. I must just relax, people like me. Until one day again, it was revealed to me again by something someone says/does or doesn't say/do. Over and over it was happening with different people, with the same general reasons and same general outcome - people would prefer not to know me or spend any time with me, they avoid me at all costs, so obviously there is something wrong with me in their eyes. I mean, I was not imagining things. In fact I was oblivious before, I didn't even realize people carried around so much contempt for me. These are people who were so friendly with me, who pretended to even be my friends. It was then I realized it was only because I had some useful skills they didn't, so they found me useful, like some kind of tool. When the job is over, you don't want your tool to spring to life suddenly, gain a voice of its own, and start making requests from you, do you? Exactly, people were happy with me as long as I stayed in the corner like some kind of office machine and just did my job as some kind of useful tool of some kind. Let me just do something out of character, then you see their true colours, what they really feel.

And you say this bad stuff is coming from inside of me. Well, if that is the case with my barely-functioning emotional system I've been equipped with, then I can only imagine the stuff that must be generated within a system operating at full-whack and all-systems-go in a normal individual. You speak of projection. I have had a life of people projecting their fears onto me and me having to deal with it. I have spent my life proving to other people over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over that I'm not the monster they thought I was and that if you let me in to your life just a little, I can do so much for you and be one of the most loyal, supportive and loving friends you ever had.

I've shown enough faith in humanity already. It's time for them to show faith in me for a change. All they want is proof, over and over, that I am not the monster they wanted me to be, before giving me a chance. I'm sorry, I just can't invest time and effort into doubting Thomases like that anymore. You either love me or hate me, it's that simple, make a choice. I'm tired of accommodating the fears of the lukewarm, because it's super taxing on me at the end of the day. Not only do I have to function in a world not defined to accommodate special requirements I might need to function, but I have to keep disproving other people's fears too on top of that. And, you know what? I'm just getting so tired of it all. I just don't have the energy to deal with these doubters anymore. I have no choice anymore but to leave them be, to leave them to dwell in their own doubt about me. You speak about projection, they are filled with self-doubt and fear, so they automatically believe that someone like me with my problems should be even more self-doubting with them, and when I am not, they are angry with me. When I display confidence, they hate me for not being afraid like they are.

My fellow students in my class then used to hate me when I pass a test with flying colours and they all fail, every last one of them. They used to tell each other. It is only because I have my ear on the ground (I've always been super observant), that I know about this. They used to hate me for answering the questions in the class that the professor would pose. Now, what should I do? I know the damn answers, must I shut up now just to prevent other people from being hurt? Come on. Their insecurities make them weak and pathetic, despite the image of strength and beauty that they flaunt every day of their lives. But, that's all they are, strong on the outside and beautiful on the outside, and they get the wind taken out of their sails when a socially awkward freakshow like myself suddenly fires up like a rocket and blasts off, doing things they never expected and ruling with confidence in the most impossible of situations.

For all the gifts they have - social spontaneity, beauty, sex-appeal, physical strength, bodies-to-die-for, money, sporting ability, etc. etc. they are intimidated by a person with not even half of what they have. All the gifts in the world, every gift a human can be given, and they are intimidated by and insecure around me, a person they class as sub-human, or humanoid. Why don't they step up to the plate for once, put their pride in their back pocket, and challenge themselves to see if they could understand someone like me. I guarantee you it will never happen. I've got to play their game, but they won't venture down my road. As I said before, normal people don't care.

It seems worry a lot of others think of you. Prior to that I can't see past the fact you are unwilling to accept the diagnosis, otherwise youdn't worry about it. What we DO accept in ourselves, doesn't worry us in others, simple as that, because we always see it from OUR mental fabrications and this is the real motivation to think .....

This might seem a bit harsh, but it is very obvious you trying to convice yourself you don't care about what they think. You do this because you trying to convice YOURSELF that you don't care. Which obviously brings us to the fact that you care VEEEEEEEEERY MUCH.

If you (really) know what projection means, you will start to understand what you are actualy saying here.

(hint: replace "people" with I)

You were the closest to yourself at this point. The closest to the Truth. The closest to what is called God.

Now the imporant thing you must grasp here it's not about people LIKING people. People like only THEMSELVES. We are all egocentric, peroid. It ends here. We talk to eachother because WE need to gain something, not because they want to gain something.

This a very hard thing to accept, but it must be accepted. Because only then you are starting to get the right awareness, that we all suffer the same way. We all wants to be understood, we all want to feel safe, and so on. Nothing can help other then someone who REALLY listen to ourselves, so we can express ourselves and this helps us to get closer to the truth (this final emotional goal is to be able to feel the truth - to feel angry at the ones you were angry at the first place (in your childhood sadly, so it's far away)). So the final goal is to stop lying to ourselves. That's why all the defense mehacnism are built. But they have their own purpuse. The pain behind is hard to be felt. So it must take time ... the proccess of getting to this core is very long one, and the defenses are teraed up sloowly. More and more pain is felt. But at the same time this pain goes away, because it gives you freedom and realization (by feeling the exact same thing that should be felt and expressed before the very same thing goes away because the realization is - after getting to this pain - that is was kind of silly with current capacity of understanding). So feeling the pain -> realization -> freedom to take on on life and only then authentic help to others is possible and also you are freed from limitation, so it may be that you do something else, although the more you are free and realized, the more appropriate job is to actualy help others, because, well, there is less there to help (to) yourself ...

So, basicly, there's no thing like like people "not liking" people. It's not even an issue, because people can't "like" others. They might only like themselves because this is the way of helping them built on their false persona ... the only natural thing with freedom is to be able to understand others ... not to "like" them or to "be liked" ... because in this case this would be running away from the self ... running away from the truth, and not closer to it

Not quite like that. It is only that they don't get to fullfill their wishes of being liked and they move on in their endless pursuit of trying to heal the past with running away from the truth. That's all it is. A bit complex to grasp in a way I putted in now, but if you understood explanations I gave to you so far, you might understand this one, too.

Again, replacing people with I is the way.

See how it easy it is if you use projection ... you just replace everything you think others thing of you with you think about that, and voila - you have it. Well, not really always, because we use other defenses, too, but this is the one we use mostly, specialy when "others" are involved into the story.

That's how it all works. 98% of the relationships. Even the mother-son one. Sadly, that's how it is. It's called suffering being passed on. That's why buddhists have these symbols of endless suffering ...

Gooood stuff. That's more like it!

YOUR FAITH!

YOU are angry, because you feel guilty. Because your superego is harsh on you. Because you have a very big rule behind all of this "to satisfy others"! And it is YOUR anger when you are not being able to do this, because of this very rule is limitating you.

it is YOU who think YOU are not good enough then. It is all in our story, they aren't somehow magicly thinking instead of you. You are the one feeling .....

When I display confidence, they hate me for not being afraid like they are.

Of course not. The truth is very good thing. But only if some asks you for the truth. You see, you feel guilty. You feel guilt for "hurting them". For some reasons behind this story of yours, you percieve your assertivness with the guilt. Guilt for being assertive ... gulit for being independent ... this is the very thing you must be angry at, but with the right people. Perhaps with your mother. You should SAY it when you feel this. "Stop making me feel guilty now", and so on ... you should be honest and with the very same assertivness which you fear, express the truth ... but in exactly the situation where it fits! That's how independence and freedom will grow. It might feel arrogant and guilty at the end (again ...), but confidence grows.

I have two things to compare what your talking about.

I have 9 siblings, and my younger brother was diagnosed with Aspergers. Before that my siblings were always telling him to stop talking about movies, and comics, for he would go on and on and on about it. They, including myself, at the time would ignore him. As I grew older though I found that he's just a person, and he's into the things he is. Its the same as getting into a conversation with a mother that LOVES to talk about her kids and you can't get her to stop talking, same thing, he just shows different signs than the mother.
When he was diagnosed, none of my siblings seem to care, they were all still trying to "change" him. But they don't realize its just who he is. Some siblings have come around but others just don't care to talk to him. Which in his opinion, "if they want to be that way why try to be in there life?" I love my brother and its not because he has autism, its because he's a person.

Story two (everyone is leaving really long post so I'm gonna keep going), after a few years finding out with my brother, I worked at a resturant and this guy started coming in with long stares, always had a book in his hand and very short conversations. The waitresses would talk about how creepy he was, and the day they tried getting me in the conversation I stopped them and made them realize that he was autistic. I went into a brief conversation about it and made them all shut the hell up about it. Found out eventually he published a book, I mean come on? why is he so different from other people?

I think people just expect everyone to have good people skills, but why aren't ***-holes medically "labelled"? And its funny though, if you ever let go of the fact of an ***-hole and you get to know them, they always have a nice side, and a personaility.

People just need to accept more, and not expect so much more out of people.

Also you will get judged by anyone and anybody for who ever you are. People judge, its a sad thing but we all have in us, some people just know how to shut it off, some don't.

That's true. People judge, but it is good understand they do not judge with the aim to judge another, they judge because of their emotional wounds, not because of how anyone looks.

Not always. People judge fat people a lot for example. And the main thing they tend to say is that person is below them for having a problem with controlling eating, just like they look down on alcoholics because they have a problem controlling alcohol consumption, or a drug addict who cannot control his drug use. People who don't have those problems will always look down on those who do. With autism it's no different. That guy has a problem expressing emotions, so he must be below everyone else who doesn't. These people are a threat to a comfortable life without these problems.

It's that simple. Your projection hypotheses and things are very intriguing but I think you are missing a simple point here - people who are normal like to protect the status quo, because normal people rule the world with conformism, uniformity, and well, being regarded as normal. The moment you let people in who challenge that, you risk destroying this comfort zone they have built for themselves, so you know they are going to defend it to the death. They WILL excommunicate you by force if they feel you are upsetting the apple cart in some way.

People with autism just bring something to the game which is just too way out there for people to handle. It is as clear as daylight that they are driven by nothing but pure fear that allowing this "anomaly" into the fray is going to cost them something, maybe their place in the accepted world order.

And, I don't think you are picking up on what I am saying. It wasn't me that has made up all these thoughts about myself and how people see me and now I'm projecting that, it IS what they think, because I heard them saying it. I didn't know until I heard them saying it. My case is not like everyone else's where you expected stuff about yourself and was fighting hard and then people say hey this is not the case, we didn't think of you this way you are putting too much pressure on yourself, we accept you. It was a case of I overestimated (yes, my mistake) how much people really accepted me, and overheard things and picked up on hints basically saying hey you are not as well-liked as you think you are, deep down we don't like you at all.

When people are nice to you to your face and are saying all the right things, it usually means they actually carry a deep resentment for you. People will always tell you what you want to hear to your face, and then stick a knife in your back.

All these theories and stuff is just a way of trying to defend them. It's like the story Butternut told of the guy in the restaurant. There is no theory that will ever be good enough for me to defend the projected fears of those waitresses. They called him a creep and they have nothing to blame for that except their own sick, fear-filled minds. They call him a sick creep, when they are the ones who are most sick of all, but because they are normal, it's all good, they must be right.

What you are trying to say is the problem lies with the guy with the book. He already crawls through a bed of broken glass just to function daily without hitch, now he must still suss and comfort their sick minds? You see, judgement is easy, it takes a second, but he now has to take years, probably even decades to ever convince them they were wrong in their judgement. That's really just expecting too much from one person. Normal people expect autistic people to prove themselves constantly, to change, to meet their standards. Well, I say their standards suck. If a so-called standard can't be applied across the board, it's no longer a standard.

As soon as this world stops projecting their fears onto other people, you will see, "disorders" like autism, ADHD, etc. etc. will magically disappear in front of your very eyes. Wars will cease, countries will prosper, and people in the government won't need all these lavish lifestyles they live. Until then, things will continue to get worse. You will just get more and more "awkward" people until they become the norm. These "problems/disorders" come to earth for a reason. They were obviously deemed necessary by some universal power, otherwise they wouldn't exist. They are trying to teach the human race something. The question is, will people sit up, look and listen? Let him who has eyes see, and him who has ears hear!

Without fear, there would be no commercialism, no beauty industry, no banks, no governments, no politicians, no police, no laws, no speed limits, no psychologists/psychiatrists (there would be no psychological "disorders"), no plastic surgeons, no dieticians, no branded clothing or even a clothing industry, no nightclubs to seek fun, no alcohol, no drugs, no gyms, no self-help gurus, and most of all, no need for money, it would be a pointless commodity, because real wealth cannot be measured in it.

I'm on another autism related forum as Gold MD, and we're discussing why NT people are not that good at helping or understanding our needs.

Setting up support groups - General Discussion - Asperger and ASD UK Online Forum

I apologize for the angry tone in my previous post. I could have said some thing in way more compasionate way then I did. I was basicly arguing. Though I must say my self pittyness leaded me to panick attacks, so this so called victim mentality is a hurtful mindset. It is about OUR happines, so we must be aware of avaliable helps to relieve or suffering and be smart enough to realize, what doesn't, and not continue with this anymore. That's why we have this mind - it was the tool to destroy us with it's defenses, but it is the very same (only) tool which we can heal but using the correct knowledge, trainings and techniques. (in this order thos are wisdom, compassion and loving kindness and sympathetic joy AND meditation, for example).

I had a long reply written here, but somehow I logged out in between and then the post somehow hasn't been stored to be published while I logged in again.

I will try to help you again without too much of fantasazing ...

You see, in the same way as I was able to admit I was being in an angry state of mind (with you), and therefore compassionate additute was marely only a percived one from myself (faked), you can try and do the same reflection on yourself:

You judge people for being judging. You rationalize this by you being moral, because you judge because THEY judge ... but then again, someone else can judge you, because you judge too ... as the motive in the background anger, rage (hostility, need for revange) it will continue to produce endless suffering. For example if in this mindset you decide to have baby, it will be passed on. So, it is up to us to stop it and spread something else instead of it. The solution is therapy, but antitodes for anger are also tranings I mentioned above. I would recomend listening to Michele McDonald, Tara Brach and Thanissaro Bhikhu. All of them fill me with love.

We all judge. And we must reflect on ourselves, forgive ourselves and try to find a way to become a better person. I remember I was being kind of moral with arguing how everyone has a right to do anything, on the forums I was arguing how it is OK people sniff coke on toilets and how gays are kissing in the public, there is one very significant point to be made. I was arguing because I was defending my additues and because I wanted for them to change - to be something else. The motive was anger. I was anger for them for not showing ME the unconditional love and acceptence, though we weren't actualy arguing about me ...

Lately I realized I was doing this only because of this very anger. Everything appart from this realization is a lie. Now the biggest problem here isn't arguing itself, but how at the same time I was flying away from myself. I was starting to actualy believe I DO feel like that about this people. That's how much I got cought up in my stories, while, if I see a homeless people being drunk in the public, I must admit I find them intrusive. I would also find intrusive seeing some gay people kissing in the public (unless they're really cute:P). Though I don't judge fat people. I only judge them if I see them with having 150 kilos and waiting in the line of McDonalds wearing unhappy faces ... it feels wrong. And it has its reasons. Because we know it leads to more suffering, that's why. It is also true because we have aversion for them not being smart enough or perhaps being jelous when seeing two girls kissing, but at the same time, the intution says it is "wrong". Aparat from this, first step to healing ourselves is admiting the underlying reasons for hatred, jelousy, etc. - being honest with ourselves. Moralizing isn't really a solution as it is only a rationalization of some emotion, most probably not a good one. Being honest with ourselves ... that's done with introspection - with being mindfull/meditation. Second step is traning so to stop hurting ourselves further, because obviously we don't want to suffer anymore, so I guess we would like to DO something about it.

Have a great day.

P.S.: Sorry for my English.

Kindoflost makes a really good point but so do you, stbguy, that's the beauty of opinion and free will.

Kindoflost might look at a fat guy in line at mcdonalds and say "uck" but look at hot lesbians making out and think "nice" (hehe)

It's all morally our choice, our anger, fear, anxiety, might cloud our judgment but we have our thoughts with us all day. Kindoflost (sorry I keep using you) might be laying to go to sleep and that fat person may come to mind and thoughts of understanding may occur, he/she doesn't know that person, than the judgement is changed.

In a nutshell we cannot change other peoples mind, but we can change ours.

I was "homeschooled" as a child, the only people I knew were my siblings. When I turned 12 my mother put me in school.... MIDDLE SCHOOL! Girls are mean at that age. I sat alone for a good amount of my time. I was the stinky kid probably, I laughed a lot, and I did not have people skills at all! So I feel you about "normal people" I never understood how it was so easy for them, but as I grew older, I was happy I wasn't "normal" I didn't listen to nsync, etc. Etc. I was me. And if someone didn't like me, oh well.

As I got older, out of highschool, i've realized they weren't normal, they were alike eachother but they all have the same fears as I and you, they all worry for acceptance as you and I, the only difference is, it's easier for them to find friends, we refuse to say things because we think they will like it, we refuse to listen/watch something because steph or Paul is watching it, we are ourselves.

We can change our minds, when I got with my husband it took me years to realize that maybe I should tell him I love him more, it was so hard for me but I tell him more frequantly now, it's still hard, for I don't think about it or I get a cat in my throat, but after 5 years of practice I'm alot better.

Woah! I'm done.

My struggle was more with expectations than fear regarding my H.....I went into the marriage expecting a partner....what I ended up getting was anything but that. Like I said in those days, Asperger's wasn't even known about so expectations were always that the person was going to be like normal people in being able to deal with things especially with someone who had always bragged about how smart he was & what a high IQ he had.......that was my first red flag that his grades in college didn't match having a high IQ.....he barely graduated over a 2.0 GPA.

I know that it can be part personality issue but where do you draw the line as he didn't like to do any work in classes where he felt he was smarter than the professor.....much of his Asperger's traits came out in arrogance & in reading about it.....it says that some can actually manifest in that way. But that personality trait makes people not like you whether you are normal or not.......so it also became a problem in his computer design engineering career. He thought he was always so much better than everyone else & that his way of thinking was better even if it conflicted with management & he didn't know how to adapt so he created problems for himself more than anything. I was also a computer design engineer so I knew the industry & I could see what was happening....but he wouldn't listen to what the real world was telling him.

The expectations of having a partner who could take care of things also because I was his equal on the career end of life....I needed a partner who could pull his end of the work so it didn't come down on ALL me. Found out at the end that he thought all marriage required was him going to work & bringing home money......but I didn't need him to JUST do that. I needed someone to help take care of problems that came up.....expectations.......that I always had to end up fixing after he would mess up the problems even worse.....& in trying not to be the mother in the marriage....I kept trying to get him to pull his weight & obviously unknowing that it was Asperger's....like a normal person, the more you take care of problems the better you get at it....well not true in our case.

What actually happened was that he went from living at home to graduating from college & getting married right after that....so he always had someone to cover his inabilities. So he looked much higher functioning than he actually was. Because at the point when depression took me over & I needed him to function.....that was when it was obvious that he couldn't. In a marriage there is always the expectation that the other person will be able to take over in the event that the other person becomes unable....that's why both work at it all the time & one person doesn't take over everything.....but that didn't happen & it became more obvious that he was incapable of taking care of anything & the anger started to build the more I needed him to be functional & help instead of just saying that he would.

It's definitely not the word fear....it's more the word expectation at work or at home. That's why it's so important to know your limitations & not try to hide or cover them up & be honest even if it means that the position isn't right for you....better to be honest in the beginning then to end up failing everyone & making a mess out of the situation. If people know up front....then they can make a choice or find a position that is better suited for someone with Asperger's.

Sadly even if he were to get out of his denial that he doesn't have problems there would be no way I could go back to living like that.....it's not that he isn't a nice person....think that was the first thing that got me...I couldn't see how someone so nice I could feel so abused by.....until I realized it wasn't abuse it was total dysfunction. The only fear I had was that he was going to totally destroy my life & after I got my inheritance from my mother....I knew he would totally blow that also & I would never see anything.....so I ended up using it to get out of the marriage even though I initially didn't plan it that way, it was definitely the way it ended up I think because he couldn't handle change in his life either.....a definite Asperger's trait.....& in reality, for him moving away wouldn't have changed anything like it did for me.

I do think the term fear is not accurate as the way I have seen it throughout those 33 years it was expectations on everyone's part that he failed to meet & was what caused the problems. People didn't fear him....they were his superiors at work & I felt like that at home since he couldn't meet the expectations I had going into the marriage of a husband from emotional support to mostly financial wisdom.....superiority doesn't create fear but there are definitely unmet expectations that exist & create the number one set of problems.

When someone with Asperger's gets into a place that fits them....that's great.....but it's important to look for that match because if it isn't found, it only creates problems for everyone......Everyone with Asperger's is different...different strengths & different non-strengths & it's important to match that up in a marriage just as much as it is in the work place & yes, it takes more energy to find that match....normal people need to do the same thing....but all too many times people don't bother to look at what issues could be....that's why there are so many divorces & why there are so many people get fired from their jobs whether normal or Aspie....it just seems to take a bit more energy to find that match for someone with Asperger's to meet the expectations that are out there in the real world for the different positions that exist.

Finding that match is critical & it's not even logical to think that it doesn't matter & things will just work out.......not without planning in the first place & truly working through the things that could be an issue & not being afraid to admit it wouldn't work.

Not really. Fatness itself doesn't agitate me. Not at all. Because it's a natural thing. It's the other factors - seeing unhappiness connected to this. But here again, I'm bothered by their unhappiness, because I feel everyone should be happy and also I project some of my "not being smart enough" in them and also think how can they act so stupidy. I must forgive myself for this, though.

About lesbians. Well, I'm only jelous seing them, because it looks like they don't need men. That's narcistic, of course, but from now I will try to see happiness for them.

That's true. A lot of reflection is needed to realize how in the core of it, it is always about US, not about them. And then to forgive ourselves and try to see compassion and not allow anger to cloud our views in the future. However we might still do "mistakes", but that's what we do ... their realization is a great gift for a chance to improve.

In a nutshell we cannot change other peoples mind, but we can change ours.

I did this a lot. I didn't like to watch things other watched before me. As if I have given up my autonomy then. So this need for autonomy, to do everything by yourself - not needing others, is a real obstacle here. In fact it is just another belief, basicly another form of stubborness. Now this one is a tough one to work out ...

Beautiful

sorry for saying it that way, but I agree that unhappiness is sad, for me I have more compassion for them, people that are unhappy. Some people weren't taught how to be happy or how to control, it's upsetting to me because people don't realize what they have, espically in this day of age. We have resources!

I do really agree with everything you said though, I like your insight.

Eskielover, did you really stay married for 30 years?
I really value your point about expectations. I find myself brewing in thought because my husband didn't do what he " should" be doing before talking about it.

My heart goes out to you for going through those thoughts and feelings for so long. I think your right too about how it's harder to find a match cause people expect so much, and it's in ALL marriages though but it's even harder when someone is autistic.

Be careful though, always remember if your mind needed changing, then so do a lot of other people possibly too. Don't always be too willing to adjust your own thinking, you might end up falling for lies and carrying other's projections on yourself.

I did that when I thought there was something "wrong" with me. Whenever something happened, I just believed it is my thinking that just needs to change.

We must all seek truth together, not just one party having to do it all and others changing the rules as they go along.

This statement alone proves to me it does agitate you. You cannot identify something without actually recognizing it.

You cannot possibly know whether other people are happy or not about any situation in their life. This is a quality of yourself you need to stop doing immediately if you are ever going to truly understand others.

This is the part of my previous discussions on projection that I was trying to let you see. It is this assumption by people without the problem that "fat" people or "autistic" people are not happy with their current state of being. It is a classic case of projection that normal people do to non-normal people, and is basically the crux issue of my whole thread. It is because people have allowed themselves to be indoctrinated with what happiness should look like and don't realize it manifests differently in real-world terms in different people. This is a classic problem from my life - so many people assumed in the past I must be unhappy - then, the worst thing they do is, they actually project that onto me and every single action I do, every word I say, suddenly "proves" it, it is "evidence". If you believe something, there will always be "evidence" to support it.

It is not being autistic that makes me unhappy, that I am happy with, I like being different. It is this assumption by other people that I should be unhappy that upsets me, because it comes through in their interactions with me. The sole reason they think I'm unhappy is because I have a different opinion to theirs and I don't behave in a way that is familiar to them - that's it! That's enough for them to write me off completely as an insane monster.

Don't worry about them, account for your own happiness first. The only question you ever need to ask yourself is (when you put your head on that pillow tonight) - have I met my own standards today, or have I let myself down?

Not true at all. The advertising industry and entire centuries-old "art of persuasion" movement would disagree with you here, including me to be honest.

This is why I reiterate, be careful of projection, don't misinterpret the mirror image you are seeing as the true image. Double-projecting does not necessarily give you the original again.

This is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. I did not pick up one bit that you were angry in any way, and that you have offended anyone at all. I did not pick up one bit that you were angry with me or anyone here. You have to stop thinking thoughts for other people, you are going to drive yourself nuts.

I don't think so. I think it is our minds that raise us above animals and make people rulers of the earth. It's defences are in place so that it cannot be overcome and reduced to function among the other creatures of this earth.

Exactly, it cannot heal itself, impossible. It needs assistance, just like a heart-surgeon cannot perform heart-surgery on himself to save his own life.

That's not what this is about at all. Now you are doing exactly what you have accused me of previously. Not once did I say I hold rage, vengeance, anger or hostility towards anyone. I simply wish they will give me a chance to explain myself before they judge me and project their fears onto me, that's all I have ever wanted from anyone.

I prefer Christ Jesus.

Exactly.

Again, forget about them. I repeat, you cannot identify other's suffering. You cause yourself suffering when you cannot seem to solve their suffering you thought they had. It was a tough lesson for me to learn too, but let others be, and more importantly, let yourself be.

Thank you, you too

Why? It is basically flawless. Again, you need to stop doing this. Nobody said your English is bad.

Thank you! Thank you for getting it!

Exactly - I never listened to Nsync, didn't have the coolest, latest clothing (I wasn't rich growing up), video games, I was just...me.

Everyone, because I didn't do all the normal things they did, expected me to just disappear into the woodwork and not be a factor in their lives. They wanted me to "pay my dues" and I got to the top of their perceived "mountain" without "paying the dues" because the "dues" they all paid were all self-imposed, non-existent, stupid-*** social rules that don't mean a damn thing when you really think about it.

I like this too, but it only works until you're about 21. You see, after that, it gets complicated. It gets complicated when a non-conformist guy like me say falls deeply in love with a somewhat normal girl. That did happen. It's not easy to just say "oh well" at that point. It hurts to have to let go of that person.

She liked me, I know she did. I know I'm autistic and shouldn't be able to pick up on those things, and I didn't at first. I only thought about the possibility quite some time later.

But, I knew that I wasn't the kind of guy to be seen dead with. Maybe she liked me, but it didn't matter anyway. She was already enveloped and indoctrinated with what a great guy should look like, and of course, I never met any of those criteria.

The only thing I regret is not taking the chance to speak to her about it face to face when I had the chance. I should have just asked her on a date and not given a damn about any of the other stuff going on in both our heads, or maybe even just given the girl a kiss.

At the end of the day, all those damn people's opinions about me, and fears and all this rubbish would have meant absolutely nothing when she and I are sitting looking at the sunset, or she's sitting in my arms and I tell her just how much I love her. That's all that matters at that point.

That's what I'm saying. I'm done with all other people's crap. All that is going to matter to me now is when I put my head down on the pillow at night if I feel happy that I have achieved all I wanted to achieve that day. If not, I will get up again from that bed and continue to work through the night if it must until I'm satisfied.

I don't quite agree. Having such an additude, we still didn't take the full responsibility for our actions, thoughts and feelings. I'm saying this because you cannot change others, and specially anger doesn't help, because anger circles most of the times - you give it, you get it back. But if you feel angry, nothing is wrong with it. If you feel sad, nothing is wrong either. Just realize it is you who feels that way and giving it back to other doesn't help, really.

Then why are you doing exactly that then?

This isn't quite true. Our minds keep putting lables on things we say. Everyone does that. Maybe most of the times we are not even aware of doing it, but the mind DOES put labels on things. You see an old guy, and you say "old guy, skinny". This isn't the emotional part yet. This is just kind of automatic computering. This one is very hard to get rid of. You can be aware of it and recognize it as a thought, however not judging yourself, because otherwise one would go nuts if there would be judging involved in every word we become skillfull to be mindfull of. So, this is only labeling, not judging. Judging is when anger get involved. When for example on top of this "fat human" you put anger for them being such a way, or perhaps happiness because you're worth more or something - I don't know - all kind of varations can happen. What I'm trying to say is definitily isn't "judging" yet. Same it isn't judging someone in a whealchear, when your mind automaticly labels it "handicaped person", or seeing a someone smoking and mind labels it "man with a ciggarete". Facts, basicly.

I agree. It's the emotional element which fits in the paranoid category. It happens because I feel anger in others, as it wakes up my anger, and I am afraid to feel anger. The problem here is, I HAVE to feel the anger (not feeling it is further suppressing it, and also feeling emotions is not be judged, you just feel how you feel), but I also have, after I feel the anger, then forgive myself for doing this and learn more loving kindness. Second can be worked out on my own, while first part is worked out in therapy.

This isn't exactly what I was saying. I think you labeled it wrong with me on this one. I was saying that I don't get emotional about someone being fat - it is rather they anger (if they look angry, of course, if not, no problem) that I'm afraid of. Because it activates anger in me, and I'm afraid of my rage ... so then I'm afraid and therefore anxious. That's the whole issue. It doesn't have to with who they are. It's all about emotions. Another case can be, that I get angry at myself for being bothered by emotions and feeling anxious, so the cyle continues in a way ...

That's true. Human emotions are very complex. Although still, you cannot change others.

We mainly response to each other based on what emotion is given. If the words have anger included, we react mostly with fear or with anger (flight or fight). It is the same with most other emotions, even when people feel sadness. They DO feel this very need to somehow help, but at the same they're afraid they might not be able to show enough compassion. Or it wakes up there emotions of sadness which they don't want to feel and they repress it.

I thought my father actualy doesn't like me. But this isn't the truth. It's rather other way around. Because I don't like him and a have big rebellion part in myself, I projected this on him. On him not liking me, while he just is who he is. It is true he isn't equipted with the knowledge of being "a father", but still, this doesn't mean he hates me actualy. He's rather sad for me being on these self destructive mission. Maybe he could act otherwise, recognize this and learn about how to help people when they become rebellions, but those are just my ideas. He lives his own "story of his mind" ...

So, by believing that project, I always thought (well, this part still is in me, I am only slowly recognizing what it is all about, sadly mostly on intelctual level only) that HE doesn't like, while in fact it was me not liking him. Every little thing he says about any of the things we might have in common, I take as he doesn't agree with me, as it is all pointed toward me. While in fact, with projection, it is the other way around. It's like in a Fight Club - we fight with ourselves.

It's not about double projection. It's about being aware that is our own emotions that hurts us. About being aware there exist a therapy by which you can stop being afraid of the ones you are (and are therefore repressed) and can realize your own anger in my case, and your sadness in your case. That's the whole thing. Beside that, there are trainings of compassion, loving kidness and sympathetic joy. Those are kind of antitodes and they make you a happier, more caring person. It's not that these training only armor you against others emotions, the circle goes even further ... you spread those emotions, get them back, and give them again, etc. It works good for self esteem in the long run, and also you suddenly see the whole world less revolving "around you".

Hope this helps.

You haven't picked up anger, because you don't have anger which is repressed in you from the childhood and periods to follow.

Emotions work like that: the ones that didn't allow ourselves to feel are the very one which are now trying to come to surface. For example, if the anger is suprresed, I might be paranoid (of anger) everywhere I look at the people. If not this, then I might not do exactly this, but it may come to the surface while I am getting in the fights every friday and sunday. Or I might do neither of that and it may comes into the surafce with being rebellion - with gambling, with quiting every possible job. Because of the complexity of defenses, it is hard to see this thing going on and how this is all contected to what is repressed. It's mostly a subconcious thing. That's what the therapy is trying to accomplish. To get one to be able to be aware of how and why he is doing things he is ...

I was, believe me. It was the prooving you wrong. That was the whole motive for my post. And I forgive myself for that, am aware when this is motivation and now I'm writing you on a debate level, which only wish to help.

I don't really get this concept, sorry.

We need other human beings. There are either avaliable in live as a therapy with listening and where transference is being analysed and trust bulited and other stuff happens, but also you train your mind with listening to dhamma talks (or reading theory is you prefer that). The antidote for saddnes is "sympathetic joy", I think. So the training of this can be also usefull beside only therapy. Buddishm and psychoanalysis are connected in quite a few ways.

I apologize, you're correct. It's something else that's down there with you. I overgeneralized it with comparing it to me.

What if you were trying to solve their percived saddness, while it was actualy your sadness you can't feel and you percieve it in others ... and that is is the very reason you were saving THEM to kind of save yourself?

There were some mistakes in between, and I had no motivation to repeat it before I clicked on the "Submit" button. That's why I appoligized for it, because I read it myself and got stuck in between because of this mistakes. It was an appolige based on this perciving cause I felt bad I saw them and didn't correct them.

Doing what?

Trying to change me.

Uh uh, no ways. Labeling is judging, period. The associated emotions are so ingrained in people's minds, that they don't even realize anymore when they are judging someone. If labeling was not judging, I would not experience half the rejection I do.

That is impossible, unless you are God.

No, I don't think I did. You are admitting here that you are responding emotionally to what you perceive in another. They "look" angry? Why? How do you know what you are "seeing" is not wrong? As I said before, be careful of reverse-projection onto you, or that so-called double projection. I want you to look carefully next time, I guarantee you those people are not angry.

Which means we have to get it right, otherwise it's a disaster. Since I suck with identifying emotions, I try to stay away from this. This might make me seem cold, but it's safer that way.

I don't agree. You wouldn't see yourself as a rebel unless you got that impression from things he has projected onto you. He sounds narcissistic to me already before you even telling me about him. In fact, by everything you are telling me about yourself, I can sense already that your father-son relationship is damaged and you guys don't get along as much as you would like to.

This doesn't seem the case at all in your life when I simply read your narrative. It seems to me now, that you have taken everything upon yourself and now it is really revolving "around you".

Hey, it might not mean much, but in my honest opinion, you are suffering from the receiving of projections onto you which you have perceived yourself to be existing when in fact they are not. The seeing fat people as angry thing is an immediate give-away to that. The fact you are going around trying to identify and interpret other people's feelings is another clue. Don't play that game with people, it's a dangerous game. You really want to know what people are thinking, especially about you - go up to them and ask them.

I think you have been lied to so much in your life that you are trying to piece together the truth like a detective, looking for clues and indications, because you don't trust others to ever tell the truth. You are scared that if you ask someone something they will just lie to you. I can see this in you because I used to suffer with the same thing.

Many hugs brother