Are meds necessary? Are we dangerous?

Personally, I am better off with meds. Without them I am a danger to myself and to others. But thats just me. I know of plenty of people with bipolar that don't take meds and they get by. I think they would be better off with meds, but thats their choice, not mine.

I have been suicidal, but that is MY problem and my only, ain't it? I am not offended by your post, but my people who say things as you posted in it.




Not always. I think this is the Black Ambulance of mental health. Not doing anything with your life when you struggle... yes, it will get worse. But that "something" doesn't have to come in pill necesarilly.

Interesting thread! Full of really good stuff.

I'd say for the most part BP are not "dangerous", more volatile, or mercurial. I'd say we pose the biggest risk to ourselves, physically at least.

This is true for me as well, I believe. I've gone thru hell and back for 15 years trying all kinds of therapy, group, individual, mindfulness, self help, DBT, CBT, eastern philosophy, IOP, substance abuse treatment, ad nauseum. But if the core underlying PROBLEM that leads to all the behaviors isn't properly dealt with, how can I form a lasting, healthy, working solution?

Just diagnosed and started medication recently--so I don't hold any illusion that this is the end, I'm great, no more problems for me....but I can feel the difference. There's some underlying calm, peace, that I haven't felt in....forever? Well a long time.

This is just an observation, and I am glad that meds are helping you, so please don't take it any other way.

But do you think that if you tried all the above things that you tried knowing that you had Bipolar that you might have had a different outcome? If you didn't have an awareness of what the core problem was, I can see why these things would not have helped as much.

Absolutely. I'm continuing my CBT and mindfulness meditations now, I'm not giving up all therapeutic work now that I'm medicated. I know there's no magic pill. That's why I added the "without knowing what the problem was" part of the reply

I thought CBT was pointless and stupid at first but I found its actually really helpful. It is as if you are brainwashing yourself to think more rationally and less negatively.

-Trish
"Don't curse the rain, without it things don't grow. Instead find the beauty in it."

Quote:
I do know that the fact is bipolar illness does have a biological basis, there is a chemical imbalance in the brain and if left untreated it does tend to worsen over time. People can go from one or two episodes a year to rapid cyclers over several years of being unmedicated.

Not always. I think this is the Black Ambulance of mental health. Not doing anything with your life when you struggle... yes, it will get worse. But that "something" doesn't have to come in pill necesarilly.
__________________

Bipolar Disorder DOES have a physiological component, it's not a personality disorder.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20833242
Mitochondrial dysfunction and pathology in bipolar disorder and schizophrenia.
Clay HB, Sillivan S, Konradi C.
Source
Neuroscience Graduate Program, Vanderbilt University, Nashville, TN 37232, USA.
Abstract
Bipolar disorder (BPD) and schizophrenia (SZ) are severe psychiatric illnesses with a combined prevalence of 4%. A disturbance of energy metabolism is frequently observed in these disorders. Several pieces of evidence point to an underlying dysfunction of mitochondria: (i) decreased mitochondrial respiration; (ii) changes in mitochondrial morphology; (iii) increases in mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) polymorphisms and in levels of mtDNA mutations; (iv) downregulation of nuclear mRNA molecules and proteins involved in mitochondrial respiration; (v) decreased high-energy phosphates and decreased pH in the brain; and (vi) psychotic and affective symptoms, and cognitive decline in mitochondrial disorders. Furthermore, transgenic mice with mutated mitochondrial DNA polymerase show mood disorder-like phenotypes. In this review, we will discuss the genetic and physiological components of mitochondria and the evidence for mitochondrial abnormalities in BPD and SZ. We will furthermore describe the role of mitochondria during brain development and the effect of current drugs for mental illness on mitochondrial function. Understanding the role of mitochondria, both developmentally as well as in the ailing brain, is of critical importance to elucidate pathophysiological mechanisms in psychiatric disorders.
----------------------------------------------------------------

I think it's important to be aware that you have a very strong anti-med bias and what works for you is not going to work for everyone. I also think it's presumptive to assume that those who use meds are not doing anything with their life when they struggle.

I managed to graduate high school a year early, serve in the Peace Corps, get my AA, transfer to a 4 year, get married, get my BA, and have a child before my diagnosis.

I work very hard, have a lot of responsibility and get a lot done. But as I got older my depressions started getting worse and happening more often, I started getting very suicidal despite having things in my life I love, and reasons to live for. I found that my behavior, thoughts, and illness were affecting me, my family and my job.

Meds have given me a balance that I never had before. I work very hard with my T on my past issues but I feel a massive difference in my moods and ability to manage when I am on and off meds.

I have anti-med bias. Others have a pro-med one... including the "kindling theory". I am not saying all people who take the med route are not doing anything at all... I am really not saying that. But I am saying that not everybody is the same. The assumption OP shared was were are a ticking bomb in our natural state. The kindling theories suggest this.

Look, do what you need to do for you. But don't fearmonger others.

How many suicide attempts did you have? How many relationships did you lose? Jobs? How many thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars (whatever is a big amount for you, for me at that time it was hundreds of thousands) dollars did you waste? Did you ever drop out of school because of Bipolar? Do you have Bipolar I or Bipolar II? Before you answer these questions, Venus, we are talking apples and oranges. It is only when we are absolutely dead sure that we are comparing apples to apples that this conversation can even begin.

I refuse to participate in MH pissing contest. And this is a pissing contest you are attempting to start not "comparing apples and apples".

Had my struggle, felt like ending it. And the part you are quoting was attempt to humor. Yes, in addition to my issues, I have bad sense of humor. I apologize for that.

I do not see the kindling model as a pro med theory myself. I know it can be "used" for pro med and is. If the Kindling model was correct, could it not be be halted by other treatments besides meds ? The theory is that if you can stop from happening or at a much slower milder pace, then kindling could be stopped or slowed down. What I don't see, is that if this theory were true, why meds would have to be the only route. At least not for everyone. I am neither pro-med or anti-med. I am just asking out of curiosity.

I heard it mostly from med-proponents though. Been even told it does not matter I am doing good, because you know, kindling effect. And because your willpower and whatnot according to some cannot do anything to you if you have bipolar.

I could subscribe to it as a psychological theory. If you don't grasp your life, it gets hard to get back on the track the further you fallen (it makes sense too). But medical model? I pass on that one.

How do the medications prescribed affect the mitochondria?

I always thought all the medication that is prescribed directly affect the cells receptors to gain or lose neurotransmitters.

I'm not trying to be an ***, it's a legitimate question.

I don't know confused, I didn't pay to access the whole article and it looks like they are still researching how meds might affect the mitochondria. They do directly affect the cell receptors.

ill try to find via my uni and send it to you.

later though....

Im interested at looking at it too.

We have had a couple of deaths in/near where I live involving individuals with mental health issues, usually described as bipolar in the papers. Two of these deaths happened when the person with MI attacked the police. An interesting tidbit was attached to the end of the articles... something like "he was under the influence of meth". Meth is known to cause violence, not bipolar. People with bipolar are more likely to be victims of violence than the person being violent.

My life is a lot easier with meds. They aren't a cure, they're another tool in a toolbox. By themselves, they just make things easier to deal with so I can function enough to address my problems.

That said, I am well aware that I am not everyone and what works for me would do nothing for someone else. Everyone's different.

It has brought more contentment to my life once I "got it" and finally accept that other people have their own opinions and that is the end of what comes out of their mouth. Their opinion. Their opinion applies to themselves only.

I can offer my own experience and say that taking no meds did not work for me. I dont take meds to be "happy". I take them to be a functional person. I take them to survive. So that I am not sitting with a loaded gun in my hand, crying, for days and calling in sick to work. So that I dont have to call people over to take care of my kids because I cant. And because I look back with embarrassment and such regret over things I did when manic that I carry shame around inside me.

I go to therapy because after 16 years on meds I finally "got it" that for me, meds alone were not going to solve this. I have issues to deal with. Doctors suggest therapy to accompany meds and therapists suggest meds to accompany therapy.

It's not fruitful to try to force others to accept or agree with our own experiences and use the same treatment. Just my opinion.

I agree Blossom. I am def not pro med, and I am def not anti meds. I am tho pro taking care of your "whole" being, in whatever forms that looks like to the individual. It bothers me that we see a divide even amongst ourselves here many times. A while back there was a thread asking for anyone with knowledge of certain herbal remedies. The op was met with some hostile responses.

If I was to post a thread saying I was done with meds and going to do it on my own. Would I be met with support for my informed choice, or would I be met with "very bad idea!" which would not be the support I would particulary need. I've thought about this alot, because when the time comes, I would like to have support.

More often than not, this forum is pro med to an extent. Makes sense because the majority here are on meds. Most information you can find on Bipolar is also pro med. I think we all need to support each other, no matter the individuals treatment choice. Why would we stigmatize within our own group. I don't know. Meds, no meds... Makes no difference to me, are you trying to learn how to cope, or trying to reach for something better, stuck, confused, asking for support? That's what matters.

I guess it is just frustrating for the people who do the non-med route how little support they find within the system (my friend had a psychologist who started talking about meds each time she could not provide her advice to just about any problem she was having). The OP ticked me off, because I encountered the same attitude when reaching out for help. Peeps who just go with the standard mainstream approach do not know how hard this is.

Venus I get where you're coming from but you're still making a choice to be ticked off about it. We can get frustrated and fight and against the system or we can accept the way things are and do what we think is best for us. Perfect? No. But a lot easier than staying mad.

I feel that I can be very dangerous or overly impulsive if I do not take medication. Knowing this has helped me accept that medication is a must for me. I feel like I am accepting responsibility for myself. That being said, I still think medication should be suggested/required if that specific case of bipolar disorder deems it necessary. I don't think it is fair to make a general statement saying that all bipolar people must have medication. Although, she could be dealing with her experience as evidence, but the chances of every single bipolar patient she has dealt with needing medications is quite slim. Hmm... perception seems to be the key.

On the hostility toward those who choose not to take meds, hostility isn't right but, I could suggest reasoning. Yes, it is based on experience and much reading from those damn health professionals but, I know for myself and a couple others that I know personality, my husband, a friend, that staying on medication is a struggle. Meds suck, a lot even, maybe especially when they work, well, without side effects.

Many of us who are "pro-med" are that way after going on and off medication, going off with high hopes and eventually disasterous results. Much of the literature out there shows bipolar is episodic, yes, you're stable now but, chances are that is going to change, maybe not this year or next but, it will. We take meds to prevent future episodes. They're that bad and will be. Literature also shows therapy alone is largely ineffective with bipolar. It is excellent for other illnesses though, unipolar depression, anxiety and panic and personality disorders. Here we go with trusting the experts again but, some do suggest that when the meds don't help, consider something else or when therapy is enough, same deal. I'm inclined to believe it.

Okay, yes, there are people with bipolar who may have mild symptoms and never lose touch with reality (here I'm suggesting that even bipolar depression is a significant loss of reality, not just some mild cyclothymia) and don't need medications but, many do. Those who are on them, stay on them and have seen what going off of them leads to, need to believe it is the right choice and occasional hostilty to the idea of going off meds? Can help.

This is not to say meds cure everything, definitely not. Medication is part of the answer. For me and those I know? Read about from them damn expert studies who I too am weary about? The most important part of the answer.

And as for the whole, if I'm suicidal that is my problem only, it sure is unless you know, you have a therapist whose job it is to help you or you know, life isn't to be needlessly ended. Think about it, if you're willing and actively suicidal, you are dangerous. I don't care about you any more than some other Joe Smoe who might end up an unfortunate victim of a psychotic person's dellusions, if you turn on yourself or a bystander due to severe mental illness, not some rational choice, it is the same in my books.

I think we should just all mutually respect each other. For myself I definitely do not have a mild case of bipolar. I have done the meds for almost a decade. I am well educated to the ins and outs of Bipolar, and the medications, research ect. I have gone of and on meds many many times. I have also worked extremly hard builing other skills and tools. However I still feel as tho it is in my best interest to try and be med free at some point for personal reasons. With what ever tools I decide are right for me.

I've done the med thing for so long, I completely get it. I am in NO way a danger to myself or others. I will never be. Why would hostility ever be needed from either point of view. Hostility is rarely ever needed. Understanding is tho.

I don't have a therapist, because insurance will not pay me one because you know... meds and me not being on them. So yeah, it is my problem and mine only, right? (I am also shocked you mention a therapist before family and friends, but whatever).

I am holding up quite well so far. Learned to deal with those dark times. And I do have family and friends to help me through. I have my spirituality to cling too. It's not easy, but I am fine. Not stable my any means, but I do maintain my life quite well I think.

and what literature are you talking about? Surely not Whitetake or Breggin, whom don't see meds as necesity - more as a potentially harmful.

And I agree with Anika, hostility just ain't needed. If you need to be hostile to others to keep yourself on your track then something is wrong (maybe it is not even the right track, if you cannot reasonable tell yourself "hey, this is working for me, let's not mess with it" and instead have to be hostile to others... well, there is a problem. For your and for those you are hostile to).

I am saying to each their own. If you need meds and are truly better on them (as in you still are able to to feel and live normally and are not whacked out "still depressed, but I don't care"), then fine. After all my herbs and **** are also mind altering substances. But please, respect me. I have my reasons and I have my struggles.